Hey all...first post!
First off I'm amazed at the diversity of membership (by Country) and comradery on this forum! I've been reading and searching for a week and I finally feel justified in posting a question
There is a chance that I missed a similar thread because it isn't possible to search for terms like "SI t amp" due to the search character limitations etc so go easy on me!
My goal is to build a speaker setup for use with a Sonic Impact T-Amp. From what I've read, the best drivers for the T-Amp are full range since apparently the T-Amp doesn't like to deal with crossovers. That's why I've posted in the full range forum. If this is incorrect then stop me now and redirect me elsewhere
FWIW, I listen to:
Classic rock (on vinyl)
Acoustic artists (Damien Rice, Elliot Smith, Iron & Wine)
Alternative rock (Radiohead, Modest Mouse, Metallica...)
Additionally, this will be my only speaker setup in the house at this time.
My main design goals are:
1. <$250 USD for entire speaker construction
2. Bookshelf / computer desk size
3. No external subwoofer required. In other words, I'd like the speakers to play down to 50Hz or so. I'm not sure if it is possible to go lower than this while using only full range drivers
4. Hopefully a unique, eye-catching and "professional" design but still easy enough for a first project (ie: not liable to screw up the SQ due to a botched enclosure)
I'm a n00b to DIY speaker design but I understand basic audio principles. However, much of the terminology and accronyms on the board are new to me, so I appreciate your patience
I'd like some recommendations on driver selection as well as enclosure type/design. Again, I'm new to this, so the more complete the details the better!
Thanks so much for your replies! Cheers
Nic
First off I'm amazed at the diversity of membership (by Country) and comradery on this forum! I've been reading and searching for a week and I finally feel justified in posting a question
There is a chance that I missed a similar thread because it isn't possible to search for terms like "SI t amp" due to the search character limitations etc so go easy on me!My goal is to build a speaker setup for use with a Sonic Impact T-Amp. From what I've read, the best drivers for the T-Amp are full range since apparently the T-Amp doesn't like to deal with crossovers. That's why I've posted in the full range forum. If this is incorrect then stop me now and redirect me elsewhere
FWIW, I listen to:
Classic rock (on vinyl)
Acoustic artists (Damien Rice, Elliot Smith, Iron & Wine)
Alternative rock (Radiohead, Modest Mouse, Metallica...)
Additionally, this will be my only speaker setup in the house at this time.
My main design goals are:
1. <$250 USD for entire speaker construction
2. Bookshelf / computer desk size
3. No external subwoofer required. In other words, I'd like the speakers to play down to 50Hz or so. I'm not sure if it is possible to go lower than this while using only full range drivers
4. Hopefully a unique, eye-catching and "professional" design but still easy enough for a first project (ie: not liable to screw up the SQ due to a botched enclosure)
I'm a n00b to DIY speaker design but I understand basic audio principles. However, much of the terminology and accronyms on the board are new to me, so I appreciate your patience
I'd like some recommendations on driver selection as well as enclosure type/design. Again, I'm new to this, so the more complete the details the better!
Thanks so much for your replies! Cheers
Nic
Hi Nic
Enclosures as a general rule are designed for a specific driver (there are exceptions), so we should be suggesting drivers as well as cabinets!
This is not going to be easy however. 50Hz out of a full-ranger -no problem. 50Hz out of a full-ranger in a bookshelf design for less than $250 all in with a T-amp? Well, nothing's impossible, but this is not at all easy as the requirements are moving towards being incompatable. You can get bass from small enclosures, but it kills efficiency, and that little T-amp, lovely though it is, doesn't like difficult loads -distortion rockets with increasing power-output, and it will quickly start to sound vile if its pushed too hard.
We can get close to 50Hz[ish] with a large standmount of around 45L capacity. Shove a pair of Fostex FE206E 8" drivers into it, and watch the fireworks. This will stop and start faster than you'd ever believe possible, and go LOUD. It won't be particularly refined, but it will be great fun. A smaller alternative is to use the FE207E in a 35L enclosure. Have a look at the reccommended Fostex Factory enclosures at www.fostex.com for these drivers -the main picture deals with horns or big double-bass-reflex cabinets, but down to the bottom right they have normal BR enclosure ideas. The shape won't matter much with these -build to taste, so long as it isn't a cube.
Hope some of this helps & I'll let you know if I think of anything else
Best
Scott
Enclosures as a general rule are designed for a specific driver (there are exceptions), so we should be suggesting drivers as well as cabinets!
This is not going to be easy however. 50Hz out of a full-ranger -no problem. 50Hz out of a full-ranger in a bookshelf design for less than $250 all in with a T-amp? Well, nothing's impossible, but this is not at all easy as the requirements are moving towards being incompatable. You can get bass from small enclosures, but it kills efficiency, and that little T-amp, lovely though it is, doesn't like difficult loads -distortion rockets with increasing power-output, and it will quickly start to sound vile if its pushed too hard.
We can get close to 50Hz[ish] with a large standmount of around 45L capacity. Shove a pair of Fostex FE206E 8" drivers into it, and watch the fireworks. This will stop and start faster than you'd ever believe possible, and go LOUD. It won't be particularly refined, but it will be great fun. A smaller alternative is to use the FE207E in a 35L enclosure. Have a look at the reccommended Fostex Factory enclosures at www.fostex.com for these drivers -the main picture deals with horns or big double-bass-reflex cabinets, but down to the bottom right they have normal BR enclosure ideas. The shape won't matter much with these -build to taste, so long as it isn't a cube.
Hope some of this helps & I'll let you know if I think of anything else
Best
Scott
I use a couple of Tang Band 1052SA's as desktop computer speakers in 7L BR boxes, and I think they're a great match for my T-amp. Anechoic they only go down to around 65Hz, but in a smallish room 50Hz is no problem. I also did MarkMck's #2 mod on these, which involves a cone modification and pre-filter and smooths out the response quite nicely. Easily under $250 for everything..
Oh, and I forgot to mention, these speakers are pretty efficient and are 4 ohm, so you get lots of output from the T-amp. And in a SBB4 alignment, the speakers start to run out of Xmax right where the bass rolloff of an un-modded T-amp starts, so you've got a built-in over-excursion filter.
Here's a picture of one of mine, still a little rough around the edges. If you've got room on your desk to space them away from the wall it's probably better to put the port in the back so you don't get HF's from the back of the driver out of the port.
Here's a picture of one of mine, still a little rough around the edges. If you've got room on your desk to space them away from the wall it's probably better to put the port in the back so you don't get HF's from the back of the driver out of the port.
Attachments
Thanks for the thoughtful replies
My biggest concern is building the correct enclosure. In order to keep things fairly simple for my first project I think I should stick to a Bass Reflex design. While not the best for getting the most out of the drivers, it suits my needs for being a simple design that I will be hard pressed to knacker up as well as small enough to be a desktop speaker. Does this logic sound solid to you too?
I have a couple of questions upon comparing 2 of the suggested drivers that seem most appropriate for me (Fostex 167E vs. Tang Band 1052SA). First, here is a quick comparison purely by the specs:
Fostex 167E vs. Tang Band 1052SA
Category Winner
------------ ---------
Lower resistance TB (4 ohm vs. 8 ohm)
Cheaper TB ($23.07 vs. 63.25)
Sensitivity FE167E (94dB vs 87dB)
Lower frequency response FE167E (51.5Hz vs. 60Hz)
Higher frequency response FE167E (22KHz vs. 15KHz)
I realise that I want to push the T-Amp as little as possible to keep distortion down, so which factor will help more: the Fostex's are cleary much more sensitive at 94dB but the Tang Band's are a 4 Ohm driver instead of an 8 Ohm driver. Which will have more of an impact on keeping the T-Amp happy?
Next, the Tang Band's are rated from 60Hz-15KHz. Is this really a "full range" speaker, or is it meant to have a tweeter and crossover also? In other words, will I realistically feel like I am missing something above 15KHz? I'm 26 years old, so I figure my ears are still good for it. On the other hand the Fostex's are rated all the way up to 22KHz...
Please offer your opinion!
I really like the fact that the Tang Bands are so inexpensive (and they are also available from Partsexpress where I would prefer to buy from) and bwbass' endorsement of them, specifically with the T-Amp is encouraging. I won't be able to make my mind up until I know a bit more about the above questions though
My biggest concern is building the correct enclosure. In order to keep things fairly simple for my first project I think I should stick to a Bass Reflex design. While not the best for getting the most out of the drivers, it suits my needs for being a simple design that I will be hard pressed to knacker up as well as small enough to be a desktop speaker. Does this logic sound solid to you too?
I have a couple of questions upon comparing 2 of the suggested drivers that seem most appropriate for me (Fostex 167E vs. Tang Band 1052SA). First, here is a quick comparison purely by the specs:
Fostex 167E vs. Tang Band 1052SA
Category Winner
------------ ---------
Lower resistance TB (4 ohm vs. 8 ohm)
Cheaper TB ($23.07 vs. 63.25)
Sensitivity FE167E (94dB vs 87dB)
Lower frequency response FE167E (51.5Hz vs. 60Hz)
Higher frequency response FE167E (22KHz vs. 15KHz)
I realise that I want to push the T-Amp as little as possible to keep distortion down, so which factor will help more: the Fostex's are cleary much more sensitive at 94dB but the Tang Band's are a 4 Ohm driver instead of an 8 Ohm driver. Which will have more of an impact on keeping the T-Amp happy?
Next, the Tang Band's are rated from 60Hz-15KHz. Is this really a "full range" speaker, or is it meant to have a tweeter and crossover also? In other words, will I realistically feel like I am missing something above 15KHz? I'm 26 years old, so I figure my ears are still good for it. On the other hand the Fostex's are rated all the way up to 22KHz...
Please offer your opinion!
I really like the fact that the Tang Bands are so inexpensive (and they are also available from Partsexpress where I would prefer to buy from) and bwbass' endorsement of them, specifically with the T-Amp is encouraging. I won't be able to make my mind up until I know a bit more about the above questions though
When you're right you're right, the Fostex's do look better on paper...
Just a few points, then I'll go.
- The FE167 recommended enclosure is 15L, my TB boxes are only 7L.
- With MarkMck's mod #2 (alluded to in this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...4030&perpage=10&highlight=1052sa&pagenumber=7) the midrange hump gets flattened out and they wind up being +/- 3dB out to 17kHz. I paid around $40 for a mod kit from Mark which included instructions, mod tool, and a pair of prewired filters.
- With only 0.6 mm of Xmax, it seems like the FE167 would run out of steam at less than a watt around 70Hz or so. Granted, they're very efficient so this is still quite loud for a desktop speaker.
IMO, the Fostex boxes would probably sound a little cleaner (easier load on the T-amp), but be bigger and more expensive. The TB boxes probably have more real-world bass output by virtue of having greater Xmax, but at the expense of some high-end extension.
To each his own - either way you'll have a great first project!
Just a few points, then I'll go.
- The FE167 recommended enclosure is 15L, my TB boxes are only 7L.
- With MarkMck's mod #2 (alluded to in this thread: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/show...4030&perpage=10&highlight=1052sa&pagenumber=7) the midrange hump gets flattened out and they wind up being +/- 3dB out to 17kHz. I paid around $40 for a mod kit from Mark which included instructions, mod tool, and a pair of prewired filters.
- With only 0.6 mm of Xmax, it seems like the FE167 would run out of steam at less than a watt around 70Hz or so. Granted, they're very efficient so this is still quite loud for a desktop speaker.
IMO, the Fostex boxes would probably sound a little cleaner (easier load on the T-amp), but be bigger and more expensive. The TB boxes probably have more real-world bass output by virtue of having greater Xmax, but at the expense of some high-end extension.
To each his own - either way you'll have a great first project!
Have you thought about the FE127? I've been thinking about a pretty similar project and the WinISD models look pretty encouraging. Though they bottom out around 60 Hz, if the model is any suggestion they would work well in a small enclosure.
Anyway, I've been thinking about a bass reflex in a 13 liter enclosure.
Anyway, I've been thinking about a bass reflex in a 13 liter enclosure.
If you can live with the somewhat lighter bass, the FE167E would be my choice. As a bonus, when you have more room, you can stuff them into either Martin King's Project 2 ML TQWT, or Bob Brines FT1600MK2 MLTL. This driver gives the potential to have a pair of speakers at some point in the future which will mug anything commercial up to around £1500UK, or higher. And no, I'm not joking, they're that good.
Scott
Scott
Also the CSS-FR125S is another full range driver you might look into:
CSS-FR125S
Enclosure plans can be found at:
planet_10 HiFi
Or, you might want to try some two way kits that are out there, these are cheap enough that you could try them, and sell them if they really don't work well with the T-Amp:
Kit41
Dayton BR-1S
The Kit41 does not include enclosure, but is designed to fit the Parts Express 7L enclosure. The Dayton BR-1S includes the enclosure.
Tom.
CSS-FR125S
Enclosure plans can be found at:
planet_10 HiFi
Or, you might want to try some two way kits that are out there, these are cheap enough that you could try them, and sell them if they really don't work well with the T-Amp:
Kit41
Dayton BR-1S
The Kit41 does not include enclosure, but is designed to fit the Parts Express 7L enclosure. The Dayton BR-1S includes the enclosure.
Tom.
Thanks again for the helpful replies!
I've had considered going with the Tang Bands because they are so inexpensive and I could put them in a smaller enclosure...but in the end I ended up ordering the fostex 167E from Madisound.
Thanks for everyone's input and wish me luck in my enclosure construction
I've had considered going with the Tang Bands because they are so inexpensive and I could put them in a smaller enclosure...but in the end I ended up ordering the fostex 167E from Madisound.
Thanks for everyone's input and wish me luck in my enclosure construction
If you feel comfortable with a bit of fiddly electronics work, you can replace the input capacitors that function as a low pass filter and completely remove bass roll off. All you need are two 2.2 or 3.3uf caps (film, not electrolytic) and some fine gauge wire (30awg worked for me). It only takes a couple minutes to jumper in the caps. You'll want to check the Class D amp forum for diagrams or images depicting the capacitors you want to replace. It's a simple mod and well worth it.
Also, the 167's he used are about 3db more efficient than the 127's.
Also, the 167's he used are about 3db more efficient than the 127's.
Kenwood KFC-6949S
Yeah, I know its a car speak, but its good stuff and readily available (Best Buy has them for $45-$55/pr. depending on their mood the day you walk in). They are true 1 driver fullrangers, 4ohm and I believe 92dB efficient.
I'm using a pair with a T-Amp in OB configuration as my PC speakers. I took the stretcher bars from a pair of 16"x20" canvases and mounted matching sheets of black foam core to them with 2" binder clips (I used OfficeMax brand ones and carefully made sure that the side with the engraved "OfficeMax" was on the front of each, so I can tell my friends that's where I got them). These are hinge mounted to lengths of cheap 1"x2" that are cut appropriately to wedge securely into available spaces on my computer desk, so they are fully adjustible from flat 180 degrees down to the point where they start bumping into gear on my desk (about 90 degress or so, though I usually keep them more in the 130-140 range for optimal sound in my seat). I have the drivers themselves mounted in the foam core as far up and out as possible so that they center right about ear level and are as far apart as I can get in my space (desk is in a corner).
I'm using 3" lengths of CAT5 (free) as cabling between the T-Amp and the speaks (bare on the amp side, using appropriate gold plated slip on connectors bought at AutoZone for $5 on the speaker side). I have a PreSonus HP4 headphone amp in my rig since I'm forced to use headphones for about 80% of my sound there, but the unit includes a high quality pot and a mute switch for monitor out, so I use this box as preamp for everything. My source is an Emu 0404, and I have to use the PatchMix driver to smooth out the response curve. With minimal reinforcement, I'm getting a solid 40hz on the low end before the resonse just drops off a cliff. The rest of the character is actually a bit on the bright side, so most of the rest of the EQ I use are slight lowerings at various points to eliminate some screeching. The drivers, though mellowed out nicely with breakin, so I've reviced my EQ curve a couple times since the initial time. In this sort of setup, I would have to rate them as being very good from about 40hz to around 16khz, though I have to admit that I think my hearing kinda cuts out around 16khz (though my cats freak when I turn up the shelf filter on 16khz while using the test tone generator).
So, that's probably $80 including the amp and all parts used, and I feel they are really good sounding, though I think the better than expected results are a synergy of surpsingly good for price source (Emu0404, $80), decent preamp (PreSonus HP4, $100, but I'm only using about $30-$50 of that as part of my speaker chain) and incredible value athat is the T-Amp (I gave lik $23 for it shipped), so as always, your mileage may vary.
I had been trying to do this with a pair of Pioneer 163P speaks (6.5" fullrangers) but they were very delicate compared to the Kenwoods with almost no excursion, so it was the best I could do to get a weak 50hz response out of them which did not sound very good. They were really great from about 65 to around 14-15k. I know they've got a 164 series out now, and have infact seen a boxed set of a pair of 164Ps, a pair of 164Ss (the 6"x9" equivalent) and some cheap CD deck for under $100 at Walmart just recently (I'm going to wait and see if any of these get clearanced for some experiment fodder, probably after the holidays).
Have fun.
Kensai
Yeah, I know its a car speak, but its good stuff and readily available (Best Buy has them for $45-$55/pr. depending on their mood the day you walk in). They are true 1 driver fullrangers, 4ohm and I believe 92dB efficient.
I'm using a pair with a T-Amp in OB configuration as my PC speakers. I took the stretcher bars from a pair of 16"x20" canvases and mounted matching sheets of black foam core to them with 2" binder clips (I used OfficeMax brand ones and carefully made sure that the side with the engraved "OfficeMax" was on the front of each, so I can tell my friends that's where I got them). These are hinge mounted to lengths of cheap 1"x2" that are cut appropriately to wedge securely into available spaces on my computer desk, so they are fully adjustible from flat 180 degrees down to the point where they start bumping into gear on my desk (about 90 degress or so, though I usually keep them more in the 130-140 range for optimal sound in my seat). I have the drivers themselves mounted in the foam core as far up and out as possible so that they center right about ear level and are as far apart as I can get in my space (desk is in a corner).
I'm using 3" lengths of CAT5 (free) as cabling between the T-Amp and the speaks (bare on the amp side, using appropriate gold plated slip on connectors bought at AutoZone for $5 on the speaker side). I have a PreSonus HP4 headphone amp in my rig since I'm forced to use headphones for about 80% of my sound there, but the unit includes a high quality pot and a mute switch for monitor out, so I use this box as preamp for everything. My source is an Emu 0404, and I have to use the PatchMix driver to smooth out the response curve. With minimal reinforcement, I'm getting a solid 40hz on the low end before the resonse just drops off a cliff. The rest of the character is actually a bit on the bright side, so most of the rest of the EQ I use are slight lowerings at various points to eliminate some screeching. The drivers, though mellowed out nicely with breakin, so I've reviced my EQ curve a couple times since the initial time. In this sort of setup, I would have to rate them as being very good from about 40hz to around 16khz, though I have to admit that I think my hearing kinda cuts out around 16khz (though my cats freak when I turn up the shelf filter on 16khz while using the test tone generator).
So, that's probably $80 including the amp and all parts used, and I feel they are really good sounding, though I think the better than expected results are a synergy of surpsingly good for price source (Emu0404, $80), decent preamp (PreSonus HP4, $100, but I'm only using about $30-$50 of that as part of my speaker chain) and incredible value athat is the T-Amp (I gave lik $23 for it shipped), so as always, your mileage may vary.
I had been trying to do this with a pair of Pioneer 163P speaks (6.5" fullrangers) but they were very delicate compared to the Kenwoods with almost no excursion, so it was the best I could do to get a weak 50hz response out of them which did not sound very good. They were really great from about 65 to around 14-15k. I know they've got a 164 series out now, and have infact seen a boxed set of a pair of 164Ps, a pair of 164Ss (the 6"x9" equivalent) and some cheap CD deck for under $100 at Walmart just recently (I'm going to wait and see if any of these get clearanced for some experiment fodder, probably after the holidays).
Have fun.
Kensai
Fostex 127e...
Hi all... this is my first post!
>>>Have you thought about the FE127? I've been thinking about a pretty similar project and the WinISD models look pretty encouraging.
I am currently using the Fostex 127e in pipes with the SI amp and they work great together.
http://www.zillaspeak.com/systems.asp
I think you made a good choice buying the 167e. It should also be great with the SI amp.
The new TB Bamboo's work great too.
Someone made a comment about the SI rolling off below 100Hz. Although the SI has amazing mids and treble it does need help in the bass.... using a powered sub takes care of this nicely.
Peace and enjoy your new speakers!
Godzilla
Hi all... this is my first post!
>>>Have you thought about the FE127? I've been thinking about a pretty similar project and the WinISD models look pretty encouraging.
I am currently using the Fostex 127e in pipes with the SI amp and they work great together.
http://www.zillaspeak.com/systems.asp
I think you made a good choice buying the 167e. It should also be great with the SI amp.
The new TB Bamboo's work great too.
Someone made a comment about the SI rolling off below 100Hz. Although the SI has amazing mids and treble it does need help in the bass.... using a powered sub takes care of this nicely.
Peace and enjoy your new speakers!
Godzilla
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