fostex fe108ez bib's
hello all,
finally found the time to put together my first full range project and figured this would be a good time to share, with all the recent talk of these drivers in the bib. of course, the looks pale in comparison to the recent photos posted of terry cain's i-bibs, but what the hey.
taking dmasons advice, i sprung for some nice 18mm baltic birch. closer inspection will reveal that they are not quite a box, as i added a .5 centimeters to the front and back panels to account for any bad cuts, of which there were none.
currently the speakers are driven by a charlize amp and kookaburra pre. the speaker cables are a single twisted pair of cat5 cables soldered directly to the drivers. they are still in the sheath with the other twisted pairs, to try later on if need be.
so far i have resisted the urge to tweak anything other than room placement and use of the large base that is not yet attached. i would like to wait a few months before trying any dampening or changing cables to more twisted pairs, magnet wire, etc.
right now they sound quite nice, but are highly dependent on room placement. i am not able to keep them permanently in the corners but have placed them temporarily and the sound really fills out. even these "little" bib's do not fit my gf's room aesthetic and are relegated to the little studio. i believe the room is a little small and get a significant boom when i am too close to the back wall.
i can only compare the sound to my tannoy bookshelves and the vandersteen 2ce's that i had for years. while they thoroughly trounce the tannoy bookshelves in all areas, they do not have the warm, mellow sound i remember from the vandies, nor the deep bass. bad or thin recordings sound really bad and thin. however, i don't remember this type of clarity from the vandies and acoustic and chamber music sound great.
all in all i think these speakers have great potential and i am very glad i embarked on this full range journey. thanks to all who have so graciously and willingly helped along the way!
back to the music, it does sound like will oldham is in the room with me.
larry
hello all,
finally found the time to put together my first full range project and figured this would be a good time to share, with all the recent talk of these drivers in the bib. of course, the looks pale in comparison to the recent photos posted of terry cain's i-bibs, but what the hey.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
taking dmasons advice, i sprung for some nice 18mm baltic birch. closer inspection will reveal that they are not quite a box, as i added a .5 centimeters to the front and back panels to account for any bad cuts, of which there were none.
currently the speakers are driven by a charlize amp and kookaburra pre. the speaker cables are a single twisted pair of cat5 cables soldered directly to the drivers. they are still in the sheath with the other twisted pairs, to try later on if need be.
so far i have resisted the urge to tweak anything other than room placement and use of the large base that is not yet attached. i would like to wait a few months before trying any dampening or changing cables to more twisted pairs, magnet wire, etc.
right now they sound quite nice, but are highly dependent on room placement. i am not able to keep them permanently in the corners but have placed them temporarily and the sound really fills out. even these "little" bib's do not fit my gf's room aesthetic and are relegated to the little studio. i believe the room is a little small and get a significant boom when i am too close to the back wall.
i can only compare the sound to my tannoy bookshelves and the vandersteen 2ce's that i had for years. while they thoroughly trounce the tannoy bookshelves in all areas, they do not have the warm, mellow sound i remember from the vandies, nor the deep bass. bad or thin recordings sound really bad and thin. however, i don't remember this type of clarity from the vandies and acoustic and chamber music sound great.
all in all i think these speakers have great potential and i am very glad i embarked on this full range journey. thanks to all who have so graciously and willingly helped along the way!
back to the music, it does sound like will oldham is in the room with me.
larry
Wow those C & C speakers look nice. I made a test cab with Cyburg Needles dimensions for some TB-871 set up just like that except it vented out the front. It didn't sound bad, but now I see the error, I had it backwards. I think maybe another test cab would be in order now. Any thoughts on dimensions? Or will the Cyburg dims be appropriate?
I also recently acquired some Neo-Fone drivers on E-bay. I built some cabs for the Monacors but didn't take into account the shipping cost. Fortunately the dims are the same. The Neo's are built quite nicely. I will install them this week and post some pics and comments. The gentleman I purchased from had this to say :
The Neo-Fone was one of the few drivers that I didn't run distortion curves on. While I did run a frequency response measurement, it was not saved since I used it only to notch-out minor resonances with the Behringer EQ. The driver, as I recall, was much better damped than the Seas Magnesium Excel drivers we have (W15's) and vastly superior to the aluminum L15's, sonically. I didn't compare the frequency response measurement with the online version, but I remember it being fairly smooth. The Neo-Fone cone did not impart too much of its sonic character on music, unlike the strong sonic character imparted by many metal or paper cones.
I also recently acquired some Neo-Fone drivers on E-bay. I built some cabs for the Monacors but didn't take into account the shipping cost. Fortunately the dims are the same. The Neo's are built quite nicely. I will install them this week and post some pics and comments. The gentleman I purchased from had this to say :
The Neo-Fone was one of the few drivers that I didn't run distortion curves on. While I did run a frequency response measurement, it was not saved since I used it only to notch-out minor resonances with the Behringer EQ. The driver, as I recall, was much better damped than the Seas Magnesium Excel drivers we have (W15's) and vastly superior to the aluminum L15's, sonically. I didn't compare the frequency response measurement with the online version, but I remember it being fairly smooth. The Neo-Fone cone did not impart too much of its sonic character on music, unlike the strong sonic character imparted by many metal or paper cones.
Fred,
I did not try Scott's design. I had put off doing anything with them for months, and simply decided to give them to me bro' as a B-day present. He is a professional cabinetmaker, and the beautiful Supravox drivers inspired him to get busy and build some of the Rx bass reflex cabs, in furniture ply, floorstanding, in dark stained Cherry veneer, port on the back, very nice looking apparently, -very understated, and everyone really likes the sound, all who listen are getting tuned in to wideband glory. A happy ending, and I got a gold star.
Frankly, I am anxious to see what Adire Audio/Hemp Acoustics is going to be releasing in the next while. I can say with accuracy to expect a 6.5 with a Qts=.55, very healthy Xmax, designed to be very versatile.
Do I like the BIB 168? Yes, very much. I think that the 168 is pretty close to the ideal BIB driver, of those currently available, and I think the Fostex Sigmae are an unreal value, especially considering the technical resources available to Fostex for transducer engineering. I think the 108 easily has the best mids and highs of ALL the Fostex drivers, but requires bass augmentation, whereas the 168 does not.
Giantstairs
Just noticed your post; great work, thanks for the shots. The real story begins only after a paltry 1000 hours of hard playing time to loosen up the driver. They are entirely different sounding from fresh, mine were such a disappointment at first that I couldnt even listen to them. I use 24awg magnet wire or similar for these, and with a couple watts SET and properly cooked drivers, yes, they are durn sweet. Good luck and do persevere, the rewards are there.
I did not try Scott's design. I had put off doing anything with them for months, and simply decided to give them to me bro' as a B-day present. He is a professional cabinetmaker, and the beautiful Supravox drivers inspired him to get busy and build some of the Rx bass reflex cabs, in furniture ply, floorstanding, in dark stained Cherry veneer, port on the back, very nice looking apparently, -very understated, and everyone really likes the sound, all who listen are getting tuned in to wideband glory. A happy ending, and I got a gold star.
Frankly, I am anxious to see what Adire Audio/Hemp Acoustics is going to be releasing in the next while. I can say with accuracy to expect a 6.5 with a Qts=.55, very healthy Xmax, designed to be very versatile.
Do I like the BIB 168? Yes, very much. I think that the 168 is pretty close to the ideal BIB driver, of those currently available, and I think the Fostex Sigmae are an unreal value, especially considering the technical resources available to Fostex for transducer engineering. I think the 108 easily has the best mids and highs of ALL the Fostex drivers, but requires bass augmentation, whereas the 168 does not.
Giantstairs
Just noticed your post; great work, thanks for the shots. The real story begins only after a paltry 1000 hours of hard playing time to loosen up the driver. They are entirely different sounding from fresh, mine were such a disappointment at first that I couldnt even listen to them. I use 24awg magnet wire or similar for these, and with a couple watts SET and properly cooked drivers, yes, they are durn sweet. Good luck and do persevere, the rewards are there.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
TC's sense of aesthetics... Just look at the bottom terminus.
*this pic courtesy of Jon L., and previous pic from Audiofederation*
Re: fostex fe108ez bib's
"Clarity" is thing that really sets the I-BIB apart from most other speakers. That may be a large part of my impression of "lean-ness". I was able to walk 30 feet into several rooms with other systems at HE2006 and then back to the I-BIB's over and over again , and they had all others beat for musical clarity. The notes of instruments were so more clearly defined, it was surprising. It's hard to tell now, if the speakers that I thought had a more "full" sound were actually less accurate or bloated.
A Subwoofer really has to be considered an mandatory part of a 108 based system. I'd guess that the I-BIB dropped off pretty steeply <100Hz. But, the blending with the sub in that room was nearly seamless.
WHat can't be seen in Fred's picture is that the bottom opening is not simply angled back at ~45 degrees. The angled sides are actually a row of half circles(make sense?) which gives a subtle, sculpted. It's a simple little addition, but really enhaces the overall appearance.
giantstairs said:
"Clarity" is thing that really sets the I-BIB apart from most other speakers. That may be a large part of my impression of "lean-ness". I was able to walk 30 feet into several rooms with other systems at HE2006 and then back to the I-BIB's over and over again , and they had all others beat for musical clarity. The notes of instruments were so more clearly defined, it was surprising. It's hard to tell now, if the speakers that I thought had a more "full" sound were actually less accurate or bloated.
dmason said:
A Subwoofer really has to be considered an mandatory part of a 108 based system. I'd guess that the I-BIB dropped off pretty steeply <100Hz. But, the blending with the sub in that room was nearly seamless.
fred76 said:
WHat can't be seen in Fred's picture is that the bottom opening is not simply angled back at ~45 degrees. The angled sides are actually a row of half circles(make sense?) which gives a subtle, sculpted. It's a simple little addition, but really enhaces the overall appearance.
Re: Re: fostex fe108ez bib's
Did Terry actually set these up, or has he just changed his approach to better integrate with the Bailey sub?
Interesting...although it looks like from the pictures that the i-BIBs aren't positioned in a way to load the corners like in the original design.darkmoebius said:
Did Terry actually set these up, or has he just changed his approach to better integrate with the Bailey sub?
Re: Re: Re: fostex fe108ez bib's
Good point, AudioNewb.
No, Terry wasn't in LA and had nothing to really do with the setup. I guess he had just finished the prototype and shipped it down to arrive the day before the show opened.
Paul Lim, the Cain & Cain dealer, didn't really know anything about what he was getting except to expect something totally new. As is usual for audio shows, he had very little time (hours) to get his room setup before the show opened for the press & industry preview. He tried to get the best possible sound under the circumstances.
So, you really have the worst of both worlds at these shows - brand new products and unknown acoustic environments. Add to that, new drivers that could use a few hundred hours break-in. Still sounded pretty good, though - lots of potential in this design.
BTW, what is the best way to place the BIB's?
AudioNewb said:
Good point, AudioNewb.
No, Terry wasn't in LA and had nothing to really do with the setup. I guess he had just finished the prototype and shipped it down to arrive the day before the show opened.
Paul Lim, the Cain & Cain dealer, didn't really know anything about what he was getting except to expect something totally new. As is usual for audio shows, he had very little time (hours) to get his room setup before the show opened for the press & industry preview. He tried to get the best possible sound under the circumstances.
So, you really have the worst of both worlds at these shows - brand new products and unknown acoustic environments. Add to that, new drivers that could use a few hundred hours break-in. Still sounded pretty good, though - lots of potential in this design.
BTW, what is the best way to place the BIB's?
I decided that I would go out and purchase wood to build a pair of Needles for my 871s, but was wondering if a BIB would be possible with these drivers, I would prefer to build a BIB if possible. The QMS seems to pretty high, which from my understanding was good for BIBs (6.57), but QTS may be a little high (.59).
Thanks,
Josh
Thanks,
Josh
Are this thread good place for a formal request for BIB sims for VISATON BG20, FR 6,5" and FRS8 fullrange drivers 
http://www.visaton.de/en/1/3/135.html
http://www.visaton.de/en/1/3/252.html
http://www.visaton.de/en/1/3/261.html
http://www.visaton.de/en/1/3/135.html
http://www.visaton.de/en/1/3/252.html
http://www.visaton.de/en/1/3/261.html
I am about ready to build a pair of BIBs for the Fostex 168ES Sigmas. Using the guidelines, I came up with approx. internal dimensions of 6.5"(w) x 11.5"(d) x 60"(h).
After looking at Terry's latest Inverted BIB, which loads the floor rather than the ceiling, I was wondering on these lines:-
Use a 15" or 18" ELF type of sub and mount the 168 BIB above that to couple with the ceiling better (ceilings are usually 9'-10' high).
I would also like to use a Fountek JP3 ribbon in each BIB.
Set it up for active amplification with an active x-over and make the inputs switchable so that the 168 can be used either as the midrange in the 3-way active setup or as a Full Range.
This way it would be possible to have the best of all worlds ie., a 168 BIB that couples better with the ceiling and a switchable 3-way active system to handle even the most demanding type of music.
One more comment: How is the idea of either starting a thread or putting up the 'internal fill' details for each BIB in the zillaspeak website?
After looking at Terry's latest Inverted BIB, which loads the floor rather than the ceiling, I was wondering on these lines:-
Use a 15" or 18" ELF type of sub and mount the 168 BIB above that to couple with the ceiling better (ceilings are usually 9'-10' high).
I would also like to use a Fountek JP3 ribbon in each BIB.
Set it up for active amplification with an active x-over and make the inputs switchable so that the 168 can be used either as the midrange in the 3-way active setup or as a Full Range.
This way it would be possible to have the best of all worlds ie., a 168 BIB that couples better with the ceiling and a switchable 3-way active system to handle even the most demanding type of music.
One more comment: How is the idea of either starting a thread or putting up the 'internal fill' details for each BIB in the zillaspeak website?
Just find another little fullrange driver from Visaton - FRS 8M
http://www.visaton.de/en/1/3/867.html
Please will someone do BIB sim for this driver
http://www.visaton.de/en/1/3/867.html
Please will someone do BIB sim for this driver
That thing's got an Fs of 125Hz, which is way too high to be particularly useful in this sort of a load. However, if you desperately wish to, try a 20in^2 terminus, a line length of 55in and set the driver centre at 11in down from the sealed end. Probably best inverting them a la TCs new FE108ESigma types with the rear of the box chopped to allow them to breath, and stick them on a shelf. I'd favour the FF85K myself, then you'd have a BIB version of the Noogi (I love the look of those little things).
In case anyone has been wondering, the highish Fs of Visation's FR drivers (except the B200) is why I haven't bothered doing any sims for them. Wish they'd come up with a 6 1/2in version of the B200. That really could be very special indeed. Are you taking note, any Visation engineers? I'll look into those other 3 shortly as there's a request though.
Re the sub below a BIB -why not? could be good. The trick would be to integrate them properly, but I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work. Jeff -any thoughts re the above comment about the site?
Cheers
Scott
In case anyone has been wondering, the highish Fs of Visation's FR drivers (except the B200) is why I haven't bothered doing any sims for them. Wish they'd come up with a 6 1/2in version of the B200. That really could be very special indeed. Are you taking note, any Visation engineers? I'll look into those other 3 shortly as there's a request though.
Re the sub below a BIB -why not? could be good. The trick would be to integrate them properly, but I don't see any reason why it shouldn't work. Jeff -any thoughts re the above comment about the site?
Cheers
Scott
'internal fill'
I was planning on adding a graphic with internal fill options as i experimented with them on my BIB... but my BIB is still under construction having built only one and not having enough room to clear the magnet (grrrr) so i put it aside until i have additional baffles cut.
If anyone sends a pic i will post it or perhaps i will try to draw something up soon.
Peace,
Godzilla
PS. Works been a bitch
I was planning on adding a graphic with internal fill options as i experimented with them on my BIB... but my BIB is still under construction having built only one and not having enough room to clear the magnet (grrrr) so i put it aside until i have additional baffles cut.
If anyone sends a pic i will post it or perhaps i will try to draw something up soon.
Peace,
Godzilla
PS. Works been a bitch
Greets!
BG20:
L = 178"
zdriver = 38.63"
Sm = 330"^2
Due to the driver's low Fs and low Xmax though, I recommend going with a shorter pipe:
L = 138"
zdriver = 30"
Sm = 330"^2
The FR6.5's super high Qts is way too high to work in a BIB.
The FRS8's Fs and Qts is high enough that it's probably better to turn it upside down and floor load it:
L = 65"
zdriver = 14.1"
Sm = 22.5"^2
GM
BG20:
L = 178"
zdriver = 38.63"
Sm = 330"^2
Due to the driver's low Fs and low Xmax though, I recommend going with a shorter pipe:
L = 138"
zdriver = 30"
Sm = 330"^2
The FR6.5's super high Qts is way too high to work in a BIB.
The FRS8's Fs and Qts is high enough that it's probably better to turn it upside down and floor load it:
L = 65"
zdriver = 14.1"
Sm = 22.5"^2
GM
I also need information on internal fill. I am putting the finish on my cabinets this weekend and will stuff and start testing them. I am using the FE168EZ and understand that the suggested fill should be above the driver and on the floor of the cabinet. Does anyone have a suggested amount for these areas?
Ray
Ray
Having spent a happy evening in the sun yesterday reading the thread so far, I'm getting hooked.
I think the flare rate has been touched on but to make sure I've got this clear... presumably the depth:width ratio of the mouth can't be too square on there isn't enough flare within the line. The original Cain BIB lookis 7 x 14 inches external so a 2:1 mouth opening seems about right. How close does this need to be and is there any advantage in increasing the ratio?
I think the flare rate has been touched on but to make sure I've got this clear... presumably the depth:width ratio of the mouth can't be too square on there isn't enough flare within the line. The original Cain BIB lookis 7 x 14 inches external so a 2:1 mouth opening seems about right. How close does this need to be and is there any advantage in increasing the ratio?