So if I understand you right, the driver position can be set at 1/3 of the lenght as a starter. I'm thinking of opening up a larger space on my existing BIB's in order to change position of driver. I will make a couple of longer additional baffles to see if I get any changes sound wise.
After a longer listening session yesterday I concluded that the damping I made was too excessive. For sure reflection thru the cone disappeared BUT, it took away some of the low mids too. Result was cleaner sounding but colder and dryer (read it as more of a monitor sound in lack of verbal knowledge) Voices came across as strained and made my ears bleed after a while.
Funny thing is that my wife immediatly asked what I've done. It sounded worse according to her!!!
Therefore I losened the filter beneath the driver so that it can breathe a little more. I couldn't listen to them at higher levels as it was quite late, so further impressions will come.
Don't know but I have a feeling that the mids, coming out of the mouth, maybe it's not so bad with small drivers. Shure it makes the sound stage to big, but it adds a varm tone that I maybe can live with. We'll see....
Cheers
After a longer listening session yesterday I concluded that the damping I made was too excessive. For sure reflection thru the cone disappeared BUT, it took away some of the low mids too. Result was cleaner sounding but colder and dryer (read it as more of a monitor sound in lack of verbal knowledge) Voices came across as strained and made my ears bleed after a while.
Funny thing is that my wife immediatly asked what I've done. It sounded worse according to her!!!
Therefore I losened the filter beneath the driver so that it can breathe a little more. I couldn't listen to them at higher levels as it was quite late, so further impressions will come.
Don't know but I have a feeling that the mids, coming out of the mouth, maybe it's not so bad with small drivers. Shure it makes the sound stage to big, but it adds a varm tone that I maybe can live with. We'll see....
Cheers
Nominally the ideal is at approximately 1/3rd acoustic (not the same as the physical) length of the system. Naturally, that would put the driver on the floor somewhere, so we choose the best compromise we can for driver positioning.
By memory, you have the point above the driver stuffed, a nice, thick layer of damping material over the entire internal base, a layer of damping up the rear of the internal baffle, and some material right behind the driver, right? I should have thought that was plenty, but your boxes are a little over-sized too, correct? So it'll need some more, though that would usually apply more to the LF than the mids. Get some grill-cloth across the vent & build thickness up until it kills the mids escaping. Prevents dust ingress too.
By memory, you have the point above the driver stuffed, a nice, thick layer of damping material over the entire internal base, a layer of damping up the rear of the internal baffle, and some material right behind the driver, right? I should have thought that was plenty, but your boxes are a little over-sized too, correct? So it'll need some more, though that would usually apply more to the LF than the mids. Get some grill-cloth across the vent & build thickness up until it kills the mids escaping. Prevents dust ingress too.
Correct! This is what I had before. Now the one inch BAF behind driver is replaced with the filters from earlier posts + a more dense damping in the closed end. This I have to listen more to, before judging.
Correct!
This has been done before with the original damping I had from the beguinning and it was quite good.
Cheers
Scott,
Are the dims listed on Zilla's site for the FF225K for real? Super short line length, reasonable mouth area, Zdriver long enough that if you invert the line, will bring the driver up to a good height? You mentioned earlier that you felt that the FF series was overall more smooth than the larger FE series (except maybe the 168Sigma; the missing top end is no problem for me since I have B&G Neo3PDRs that I love already in hand that I would repurpose for these if I went ahead with them). The fact that an appropriately sized pair of cabs could be built from 11 12"x48" pieces of chip board that can be had locally around $3 each (and that this material might be benefitial). Really seems to good to be true (well, other than the driver price).
Your friend that has a pair using FF225Ks, what dims are his cab? Has he added a supertweet? If so, what sort? Crossed how? And now that he's lived with them a bit longer, what are his current impressions of them?
Don't mean to needle, but the combination of impressions from you (vast; you said vast for crying out loud; who doesn't want vast?), the sims showing extremely deep extension and the fact these can be made into reasonable 4' tall cabs has me salivating.
More practically, what would you think of doing these as floor loaded? Would the dims change? Would there be any other considerations I'd need to make in designing them?
Thanks,
Kensai
Are the dims listed on Zilla's site for the FF225K for real? Super short line length, reasonable mouth area, Zdriver long enough that if you invert the line, will bring the driver up to a good height? You mentioned earlier that you felt that the FF series was overall more smooth than the larger FE series (except maybe the 168Sigma; the missing top end is no problem for me since I have B&G Neo3PDRs that I love already in hand that I would repurpose for these if I went ahead with them). The fact that an appropriately sized pair of cabs could be built from 11 12"x48" pieces of chip board that can be had locally around $3 each (and that this material might be benefitial). Really seems to good to be true (well, other than the driver price).
Your friend that has a pair using FF225Ks, what dims are his cab? Has he added a supertweet? If so, what sort? Crossed how? And now that he's lived with them a bit longer, what are his current impressions of them?
Don't mean to needle, but the combination of impressions from you (vast; you said vast for crying out loud; who doesn't want vast?), the sims showing extremely deep extension and the fact these can be made into reasonable 4' tall cabs has me salivating.
More practically, what would you think of doing these as floor loaded? Would the dims change? Would there be any other considerations I'd need to make in designing them?
Thanks,
Kensai
Whenever anything appears too good to be true, it invariably is. Unfortunately, that's a typo. It should read (grab a brandy) 178in, making them about 7 1/2ft tall. Sorry.
Yes, the FFs appear to be a good match, despite the low xmax. Smoother response generally than the FE range. Simon's running them with FT17H horn tweeters, pod mounted on the inner side a la Cain & Cain. Great for when Holst is placed on the turntable. But not small. On the up side, you can shorten the pipe to 140in at the sacrifice of about 3Hz or extension, which isn't a bad trade-off. As it happens, that's what Simon is currently running. Loves them. So do I actually.
I've resigned myself to the fact that I'm never going to get my 165 or Monacor cabinets back, so I suppose I'll have to build a new pair. I don't have room for the 225s & I fancy something different. Got one idea up my sleve. Hopefully I'll get some pictures of the finished cabinets this time round too.
Yes, the FFs appear to be a good match, despite the low xmax. Smoother response generally than the FE range. Simon's running them with FT17H horn tweeters, pod mounted on the inner side a la Cain & Cain. Great for when Holst is placed on the turntable. But not small. On the up side, you can shorten the pipe to 140in at the sacrifice of about 3Hz or extension, which isn't a bad trade-off. As it happens, that's what Simon is currently running. Loves them. So do I actually.
I've resigned myself to the fact that I'm never going to get my 165 or Monacor cabinets back, so I suppose I'll have to build a new pair. I don't have room for the 225s & I fancy something different. Got one idea up my sleve. Hopefully I'll get some pictures of the finished cabinets this time round too.
You know, I was looking again at the Hemp-8 "2001 Space Odyssey Monolith". When I saw it before, I thought "yeah, right..."
But on second thought, why not? The cool thing about it is that it's only 8" deep!
And it goes right up against the wall. It would become the wall. Just put a plasma screen between the two.
Might be high WAF, after all. Hmmm.....
The desired 1:1.414 aspect ratio is out the window. More like 1:4.7 Would that really work? Those giant things could do a bit of a disappearing act, being thin and right against the wall. Blend right in.
Who came up with those crazy things? The Moose or the Lizard?
But on second thought, why not? The cool thing about it is that it's only 8" deep!
And it goes right up against the wall. It would become the wall. Just put a plasma screen between the two.
Might be high WAF, after all. Hmmm.....The desired 1:1.414 aspect ratio is out the window. More like 1:4.7 Would that really work? Those giant things could do a bit of a disappearing act, being thin and right against the wall. Blend right in.
Who came up with those crazy things? The Moose or the Lizard?
Well, there goes that, for now.
So, you're saying that I can build these with 6' lumber and as long as keep the mouth area the same, I'll get within 3-4Hz of the existing sim? Can anything be done with the mouth area to enhance this. I guess even with a bit lesser bottom end, the FF225Ks are still about the best down there anyway, so if making a smaller mouth or changing the Zdriver position would smooth response any further, I'd probably be willing to loose even a bit more.
Guess that makes it more of a toss up between using an 8"er or a 6.5"er. In your FF165K BiBs, are you using a super tweet? If not, how would you characterize their top end? The price difference between them and the 225s is basically cabinet lumber, and if I'm already sacrificing some of the 225s bottom end by my size constraints (yes, 6' is the tops; gotta match the height of the entertainment system to have any hopes of slipping these into the living room; switching from 12" wide to 8" wide will help alot, too).
So, how did your speakers manage to stray so far from home? Always looking forward to new creations, though.
I'm participating in the National Novel Writing Month (its November, ja?), so I have to stay away from speakers as much as I can for 30 days, but I think I'll try the Hi-Vi B3S BiB you speced out a few pages back, floor loaded, just as a "toe moistening" exercise. If I'm not satisfied (when am I ever?), I'll probably use them as Christmas gifts or surrounds. Any idea what they sim like? If they get to 60Hz or so before the big rolloff, they might become my new office speaks. Then we'll see about building a full sized BiB with some more costly drivers.
Kensai
So, you're saying that I can build these with 6' lumber and as long as keep the mouth area the same, I'll get within 3-4Hz of the existing sim? Can anything be done with the mouth area to enhance this. I guess even with a bit lesser bottom end, the FF225Ks are still about the best down there anyway, so if making a smaller mouth or changing the Zdriver position would smooth response any further, I'd probably be willing to loose even a bit more.
Guess that makes it more of a toss up between using an 8"er or a 6.5"er. In your FF165K BiBs, are you using a super tweet? If not, how would you characterize their top end? The price difference between them and the 225s is basically cabinet lumber, and if I'm already sacrificing some of the 225s bottom end by my size constraints (yes, 6' is the tops; gotta match the height of the entertainment system to have any hopes of slipping these into the living room; switching from 12" wide to 8" wide will help alot, too).
So, how did your speakers manage to stray so far from home? Always looking forward to new creations, though.
I'm participating in the National Novel Writing Month (its November, ja?), so I have to stay away from speakers as much as I can for 30 days, but I think I'll try the Hi-Vi B3S BiB you speced out a few pages back, floor loaded, just as a "toe moistening" exercise. If I'm not satisfied (when am I ever?), I'll probably use them as Christmas gifts or surrounds. Any idea what they sim like? If they get to 60Hz or so before the big rolloff, they might become my new office speaks. Then we'll see about building a full sized BiB with some more costly drivers.
Kensai
I didn’t design any of the BIBs on the site. It’s all Scott and GM’s work.
Typically, I’m a WinISD guy myself… but sometimes I’ll do something different to fit a certain space or just for the sake of change. There is no rule you must follow what the computer says.
As for the 2001 design Scott did (with unbridled enthusiasm) I agree, they can go up against a wall and become the wall. I see them in large basements with a flat screen tv between them as well… paint the color of the wall to blend them in or make a statement.
Typically, I’m a WinISD guy myself… but sometimes I’ll do something different to fit a certain space or just for the sake of change. There is no rule you must follow what the computer says.
As for the 2001 design Scott did (with unbridled enthusiasm) I agree, they can go up against a wall and become the wall. I see them in large basements with a flat screen tv between them as well… paint the color of the wall to blend them in or make a statement.
The speakers? Oh, I lend them out to friends, none of whom ever seem very good at returning them. Costs me a fortune. My first 2 pairs of Martin King ML TQWTs went like that, the first for example to an opera singer friend of mine who refuses to allow me to have them back (she knows she can get away with it). The BIBs went the same way. Sigh.
Sorry -forgot to mention -for the shortened 225 box, drop zdriver to 30.25in. If you're worried about space though, the 165 should do you; basically the same height, but slimmer. I never bothered with a tweeter -they roll off about 17KHz, but I hate bright speakers even more than I hate, say, contact cement, or James Blunt (though I'd like to do things to the latter with a large amount of the former). Nice smooth sound, especially in the mids. Female vocals are great. And they thunder. Oh yes.
Sorry -forgot to mention -for the shortened 225 box, drop zdriver to 30.25in. If you're worried about space though, the 165 should do you; basically the same height, but slimmer. I never bothered with a tweeter -they roll off about 17KHz, but I hate bright speakers even more than I hate, say, contact cement, or James Blunt (though I'd like to do things to the latter with a large amount of the former). Nice smooth sound, especially in the mids. Female vocals are great. And they thunder. Oh yes.
Sounds good. 165s or maybe 125s if I'm forced to give a couple more inches width, when the time comes.
So, Zilla, WinISD . . . any chance of the 225s working at all in a .88cu ft cab? I'd love to keep that sealed, but given the params on that beast it doesn't seem likely. Now, my tweater in that cab is the B&G Neo3 PDR, which was rated at 90.5dB stock with the rear cup on it, but that sounded, well, cupped, so I almost immediately removed that which means its somewhat less sensitive than that now. Seems to mate fine with an 8"er that came from a retail 3-way that was rated 88-89dB by the manufacturer, so I guess we could put some resistance in line with the woofer. I'm just not sure about how to determine how much could be used to level out the woofer and tweeter and what effect that would have on the 225's ability to operate in this particular cabinet (and then wether I would need to port it, what size port, etc.; I've got a pre-exisiting opening that I think is about 2" that I could use).
Thanks guys.
Kensai
So, Zilla, WinISD . . . any chance of the 225s working at all in a .88cu ft cab? I'd love to keep that sealed, but given the params on that beast it doesn't seem likely. Now, my tweater in that cab is the B&G Neo3 PDR, which was rated at 90.5dB stock with the rear cup on it, but that sounded, well, cupped, so I almost immediately removed that which means its somewhat less sensitive than that now. Seems to mate fine with an 8"er that came from a retail 3-way that was rated 88-89dB by the manufacturer, so I guess we could put some resistance in line with the woofer. I'm just not sure about how to determine how much could be used to level out the woofer and tweeter and what effect that would have on the 225's ability to operate in this particular cabinet (and then wether I would need to port it, what size port, etc.; I've got a pre-exisiting opening that I think is about 2" that I could use).
Thanks guys.
Kensai