The FR125S drivers have been running in for 65 hours (15Hz sine wav at max exursion). Here's the post break-in T/S results.
Driver A
Fs: 64.6
Vas: 6.3 l
Qts: 0.65
Qms: 4.2
Qes: 0.78
Driver B
Fs: 62.8
Vas: 6.8 l
Qts: 0.72
Qms: 5.4
Qes: 0.83
How are you getting on with yours Dave?
Anyone else have comparable results?
Driver A
Fs: 64.6
Vas: 6.3 l
Qts: 0.65
Qms: 4.2
Qes: 0.78
Driver B
Fs: 62.8
Vas: 6.8 l
Qts: 0.72
Qms: 5.4
Qes: 0.83
How are you getting on with yours Dave?
Anyone else have comparable results?
I can for the next pair if you're interested.
These results may be of interest to you then:
http://www.vikash.info/audio/audax/break-in.asp
http://www.vikash.info/audio/xls10/
The other FR125S driver pair straight out of the box:
Driver C
Fs: 77.6
Vas: 4.6 l
Qts: 0.79
Qms: 5.80
Qes: 0.92
Driver D
Fs: 75
Vas: 4.7 l
Qts: 0.82
Qms: 6.00
Qes: 0.95
http://www.vikash.info/audio/audax/break-in.asp
http://www.vikash.info/audio/xls10/
The other FR125S driver pair straight out of the box:
Driver C
Fs: 77.6
Vas: 4.6 l
Qts: 0.79
Qms: 5.80
Qes: 0.92
Driver D
Fs: 75
Vas: 4.7 l
Qts: 0.82
Qms: 6.00
Qes: 0.95
Interesting article on the subject:
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/loudspeakers/SpeakerBreakIn.php
When you've burned in the 2nd pair of drivers for the same amount of time as the first, and chance you could post the, er, post burn in measurements of these too. It'd remove the sample variation factor and give another interesting set of comparisions.
Cheers
Scott
http://www.audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/loudspeakers/SpeakerBreakIn.php
When you've burned in the 2nd pair of drivers for the same amount of time as the first, and chance you could post the, er, post burn in measurements of these too. It'd remove the sample variation factor and give another interesting set of comparisions.
Cheers
Scott
Post break-in:
Driver C
Fs: 63.1
Vas: 6.6 l
Qts: 0.65
Qms: 5.01
Qes: 0.75
Driver D
Fs: 61.7
Vas: 6.7 l
Qts: 0.68
Qms: 5.24
Qes: 0.78
Modelled differences in 10l sealed enclosure:
Fs has dropped nearly 15Hz across the board, and VAS is up by 2 litres. Regardless of this, the modelled bass response doesn't show huge differences.
Driver C
Fs: 63.1
Vas: 6.6 l
Qts: 0.65
Qms: 5.01
Qes: 0.75
Driver D
Fs: 61.7
Vas: 6.7 l
Qts: 0.68
Qms: 5.24
Qes: 0.78
Modelled differences in 10l sealed enclosure:
Fs has dropped nearly 15Hz across the board, and VAS is up by 2 litres. Regardless of this, the modelled bass response doesn't show huge differences.
I hope these start to sound better...
Well I am running my FR125s in a 7litre box and yes the bass is amazing. But what about the rest? They do horrible, horrible things to Leonard Cohen's voice on the '10 New Songs' album. As low as his voice is it is clearly one of the richest voices out there, full of higher order harmonics and it sounds as bad as the RadioShack 1197(?) in the midrange. Peaky and nasal. A tweeter crossed over first order at 12kHZ helps a lot, but that is just masking the bad news. And they don't go very loud either. I guess I knew that would be the case in a BR box. I prefer my TangBand W3-871s for purity of sound at low volumes.
Well I am running my FR125s in a 7litre box and yes the bass is amazing. But what about the rest? They do horrible, horrible things to Leonard Cohen's voice on the '10 New Songs' album. As low as his voice is it is clearly one of the richest voices out there, full of higher order harmonics and it sounds as bad as the RadioShack 1197(?) in the midrange. Peaky and nasal. A tweeter crossed over first order at 12kHZ helps a lot, but that is just masking the bad news. And they don't go very loud either. I guess I knew that would be the case in a BR box. I prefer my TangBand W3-871s for purity of sound at low volumes.
RAW Kits and subs
Yes RAW seems to know what he is doing. I gave him a hard time about his posting writing style last week. Sorry dude. That was not nice of me. This super abbreviated e-mail writing we all use these days has got to go and we have to start using the good English we all were taught in school. Now if I could remember mine that would be a start. And manners too... I was taught some of those at one time.
Yes RAW seems to know what he is doing. I gave him a hard time about his posting writing style last week. Sorry dude. That was not nice of me. This super abbreviated e-mail writing we all use these days has got to go and we have to start using the good English we all were taught in school. Now if I could remember mine that would be a start. And manners too... I was taught some of those at one time.
Notch Filter Required perhaps?
Is a break-in period going to help these or is a notch filter going to be required ultimately. I think all the Full-Range guys out there are old AND blew their eardrums out listening to Hawkwind in the 70s and its been so long since they heard treble they don't even miss it anymore.
Is a break-in period going to help these or is a notch filter going to be required ultimately. I think all the Full-Range guys out there are old AND blew their eardrums out listening to Hawkwind in the 70s and its been so long since they heard treble they don't even miss it anymore.
Re: I hope these start to sound better...
I listened to the same CD yesterday. I disagree strongly with your description, so I think you should do a little investigation.
First thing that comes to mind is the location of the speakers. They don't have any BSC compensation, so they need a wall behind them (not right behind, but they definitely won't work in free space). I have mine about a foot out from the wall.
The second thing that comes to mind is the rest of your system. I'm feeding mine with some pretty nice gear, and they absolutely blow away the Paradigm Titans and the ATC SCM7's I've used in that system in the past.
I agree about the volume limitations, but that's not a problem for me because they're in my secondary system.
GringoAudio said:
I listened to the same CD yesterday. I disagree strongly with your description, so I think you should do a little investigation.
First thing that comes to mind is the location of the speakers. They don't have any BSC compensation, so they need a wall behind them (not right behind, but they definitely won't work in free space). I have mine about a foot out from the wall.
The second thing that comes to mind is the rest of your system. I'm feeding mine with some pretty nice gear, and they absolutely blow away the Paradigm Titans and the ATC SCM7's I've used in that system in the past.
I agree about the volume limitations, but that's not a problem for me because they're in my secondary system.
System is okay..I think
Nak CD player, tweaked NAD pre and Inverted Gainclone. It sounded okay until these speakers. I actually like them with the tweeters. My wife in factsaid it was the best stereo sound she had ever heard. I knew there was that peaky quality hiding in there so I had to be harsh. But I have to admit that WITH the tweeter they sounded pretty damn good. I just wish they WERE actaully fullrange. I could have saved money and bought the WR125. Is true full range the Holy Grail?
Nak CD player, tweaked NAD pre and Inverted Gainclone. It sounded okay until these speakers. I actually like them with the tweeters. My wife in factsaid it was the best stereo sound she had ever heard. I knew there was that peaky quality hiding in there so I had to be harsh. But I have to admit that WITH the tweeter they sounded pretty damn good. I just wish they WERE actaully fullrange. I could have saved money and bought the WR125. Is true full range the Holy Grail?
Sorry Bob
I think I may be an oddball (well my friends know I am an oddball) but everyone else likes them. And taste is subjective. I am sure there is nothing wrong with them. Break-in may help. I may like an overly bright cheesy sound being basically an audio philistine....who has to listen a low levels a lot due to a wife who doesn't appreciate fine audio...all that often... I should be aware that my comments might hurt your business and I do not mean that to happen. I just was waiting for the magical moment that happened the first time I heard TB W3-871 for the first time...fullrange. It did not happen. They reminded me of RS1197 with bass. Peaky and like a bad horn speaker. But then Planet 10 actually likes RadioShack 1197 drivers....but he is old.....(well actually same age as me... ) So subjectivity is everything I guess. I would have been willing to accept the sound as a rolled off 'studio monitor-like sound' if I hadn't put on that darned Leonard Cohen album...But it wasn't just rolled off it was ..... not good....missing a tweeter....peaky...
Thanks for the offer. I will try to let them break in and hope that helps or I will cut a hole in the nice front panel supplied with them and put the tweeter now sitting on top behind the grill too. I do have a mild hearing deficit in one ear around 7Khz but that has been for about 20 years so that is not a factor in comparing them to other systems in my house. Also the response curve DOES show a dip after 10KHz that picks up again around 15Khz or so doesn't it? Maybe that dip is what I am hearing???
I think I may be an oddball (well my friends know I am an oddball) but everyone else likes them. And taste is subjective. I am sure there is nothing wrong with them. Break-in may help. I may like an overly bright cheesy sound being basically an audio philistine....who has to listen a low levels a lot due to a wife who doesn't appreciate fine audio...all that often... I should be aware that my comments might hurt your business and I do not mean that to happen. I just was waiting for the magical moment that happened the first time I heard TB W3-871 for the first time...fullrange. It did not happen. They reminded me of RS1197 with bass. Peaky and like a bad horn speaker. But then Planet 10 actually likes RadioShack 1197 drivers....but he is old.....(well actually same age as me...
) So subjectivity is everything I guess. I would have been willing to accept the sound as a rolled off 'studio monitor-like sound' if I hadn't put on that darned Leonard Cohen album...But it wasn't just rolled off it was ..... not good....missing a tweeter....peaky...Thanks for the offer. I will try to let them break in and hope that helps or I will cut a hole in the nice front panel supplied with them and put the tweeter now sitting on top behind the grill too. I do have a mild hearing deficit in one ear around 7Khz but that has been for about 20 years so that is not a factor in comparing them to other systems in my house. Also the response curve DOES show a dip after 10KHz that picks up again around 15Khz or so doesn't it? Maybe that dip is what I am hearing???
Re: Sorry Bob
Not much wrong with your gear (except maybe the CD player ) So it must be your ears.
I agree with you Greg, taste certainly is subjective. Do give them a chance to break in, though. As per the measurements in this thread, they do change considerably with break in. OTOH they won't please everyone, nor work in every situation.
GringoAudio said:
Not much wrong with your gear (except maybe the CD player
) So it must be your ears. I agree with you Greg, taste certainly is subjective. Do give them a chance to break in, though. As per the measurements in this thread, they do change considerably with break in. OTOH they won't please everyone, nor work in every situation.
FWIW I have been nothing but happy with the sound, have the WRs running full range with no tweeter, am 28, have good hearing up high, and have extensive experience with the TB871 both alone and with a helper woofer. In fact I have a pair of FR125s sitting in box waiting to replace the FRs, and have not felt the need yet. The only negatives I can think of are:
1) nearfield (< 2ft), the BR box is a little bass heavy - though farfield, out from the walls on stands, the balance is very very good, the boosted lower end does a nice job of filling in for baffle step rolloff IMO
2) when used farfield, out from the walls, the deep bass at high levels will overload them, but this is true of any small monitor (unless it uses an extremis or the like)
Now, an aside about the 871 - which is a great driver in its own right and price range - I have always found it to have a lot of the great full range traits - precise, holographic imaging, uncoloured midband etc. However - the top end to my ears is harsh in most implementations I've tried. When I was designing a 2-way using the 871 as a mid-tweeter, I measured them and found they had a lot of excess energy from ~8khz to 12khz, and in general the treble was quite a bit louder than in most 'flat' designs I've heard. I found this particularly objectionable on poor source material (ie TV, video games, pop CDs). This became so irritating to me that in my TB871/Dayton RS225 2 way, I had to pad down the 871 1-2db to get an acceptable balance in my fairly live listening room. The 871 is already ~ 4db less efficient than the RS225! This made for an very warm and slightly bass-heavy speaker, with a rather large bbc dip, but since the future owner is a bass freak, that is preferable to excessive top end IMHO. One other thing about the 871, is that it seems to be very amplifier sensitive. I built the same speaker mentioned above, but without the additional 2db padding, and in my friend's carpeted living room, hooked up to a Pannasonic XR-50 digital receiver, the speakers sound fantastic - well balanced from top to bottom, if a touch light on bass. In my room, on a nice old 70's Yamaha receiver, with hardwood floors and bare walls, the same speaker sounded quite bright.
One thing I would suggest, since you like the TB871's treble presentation, and are a bit older than me (I think) - have you considered that your high frequency hearing may be attentuated somewhat, and that because of this, the exaggerated top end of the 871 sounds more natural to you? I guess the best thing to do would be to measure your speaker WITH the tweeter rolled in 1st order, it would tell you a lot about the type of FR curve that you like. In my experience, a lot of people have a preference for a speaker that is not flat, either preferring extra warmth or brightness.
1) nearfield (< 2ft), the BR box is a little bass heavy - though farfield, out from the walls on stands, the balance is very very good, the boosted lower end does a nice job of filling in for baffle step rolloff IMO
2) when used farfield, out from the walls, the deep bass at high levels will overload them, but this is true of any small monitor (unless it uses an extremis or the like)
Now, an aside about the 871 - which is a great driver in its own right and price range - I have always found it to have a lot of the great full range traits - precise, holographic imaging, uncoloured midband etc. However - the top end to my ears is harsh in most implementations I've tried. When I was designing a 2-way using the 871 as a mid-tweeter, I measured them and found they had a lot of excess energy from ~8khz to 12khz, and in general the treble was quite a bit louder than in most 'flat' designs I've heard. I found this particularly objectionable on poor source material (ie TV, video games, pop CDs). This became so irritating to me that in my TB871/Dayton RS225 2 way, I had to pad down the 871 1-2db to get an acceptable balance in my fairly live listening room. The 871 is already ~ 4db less efficient than the RS225! This made for an very warm and slightly bass-heavy speaker, with a rather large bbc dip, but since the future owner is a bass freak, that is preferable to excessive top end IMHO. One other thing about the 871, is that it seems to be very amplifier sensitive. I built the same speaker mentioned above, but without the additional 2db padding, and in my friend's carpeted living room, hooked up to a Pannasonic XR-50 digital receiver, the speakers sound fantastic - well balanced from top to bottom, if a touch light on bass. In my room, on a nice old 70's Yamaha receiver, with hardwood floors and bare walls, the same speaker sounded quite bright.
One thing I would suggest, since you like the TB871's treble presentation, and are a bit older than me (I think) - have you considered that your high frequency hearing may be attentuated somewhat, and that because of this, the exaggerated top end of the 871 sounds more natural to you? I guess the best thing to do would be to measure your speaker WITH the tweeter rolled in 1st order, it would tell you a lot about the type of FR curve that you like. In my experience, a lot of people have a preference for a speaker that is not flat, either preferring extra warmth or brightness.
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