Most appropriate driver/enclosure/design for full orchestra source material?

[Nardis]

I'd like to join in the praise for GM's 48" MLTL – congratulations GM and many thanks. I built mine in pentagonal columns which look good (or will when they're painted) and sound superb. They have a high WAF too. If you have access to a reasonable table saw, the pentagon is a possibility. The panels are narrow and the front of the baffle only 155mm (just over 6”) wide.

However I have added a Fountek JP3 ribbon, carried over from earlier mini-monitors based on Jim Griffin’s design. I know there are disagreements about the JX92’s top end, but I do find that the ribbon makes a big difference to orchestral strings.

Xover is first order at just over 6k, and I use them against a wall. A friend brought round a Behringer and they measured pretty flat on it, with bass into the mid 30s

I find the design great on small group jazz (my main listening). The bass is fast and my ageing REL Strata won’t quite integrate. I miss the sub on orchestral music, which really needs a bit more weight at the bottom end.

I’m interested in the comments about power. Mine are running off a Leak Stereo 20. I have another Leak and am planning to bi-amp, using one channel of each amp to drive the JX92 and the other to drive the ribbon. It will be interesting to see if this improves the bass weight.

[soongsc]

Originally posted by Nardis
I'd like to join in the praise for GM's 48" MLTL ?congratulations GM and many thanks. I built mine in pentagonal columns which look good (or will when they're painted) and sound superb. They have a high WAF too. If you have access to a reasonable table saw, the pentagon is a possibility. The panels are narrow and the front of the baffle only 155mm (just over 6? wide.

However I have added a Fountek JP3 ribbon, carried over from earlier mini-monitors based on Jim Griffin’s design. I know there are disagreements about the JX92’s top end, but I do find that the ribbon makes a big difference to orchestral strings.

Xover is first order at just over 6k, and I use them against a wall. A friend brought round a Behringer and they measured pretty flat on it, with bass into the mid 30s

I find the design great on small group jazz (my main listening). The bass is fast and my ageing REL Strata won’t quite integrate. I miss the sub on orchestral music, which really needs a bit more weight at the bottom end.

I’m interested in the comments about power. Mine are running off a Leak Stereo 20. I have another Leak and am planning to bi-amp, using one channel of each amp to drive the JX92 and the other to drive the ribbon. It will be interesting to see if this improves the bass weight.

There are some good and some bads about adding a tweeter to full range drivers, that's why we see these disagreements. Having played around with full range drivers and listened to them for over 20 years, we came up with a structure that we refer to as the FleXoNotch so that it was easier to tune the response to individual taste. It is posted in this forum and please feel free to use it for personal use if it helps. You will have the flexibility to adjust the balance among the high, mid, and low to different extents.

[el`Ol]

Open baffle speakers are good in reproducing the large space of a big orchestra, but for the big drums you need a sub. Drivers without whizzers reproduce voices slightly better than those with. My absolute favorite would be the Supravox 165 with field coil (€€€).

[soongsc]

Originally posted by el`Ol
Open baffle speakers are good in reproducing the large space of a big orchestra, but for the big drums you need a sub. Drivers without whizzers reproduce voices slightly better than those with. My absolute favorite would be the Supravox 165 with field coil (€€€).

Open baffles need to be placed further way from the back wall due to the strong sounds comming out the back.

[Jaime]

Originally posted by Nelson Pass

" That is pretty much my experience - Full range drivers are at their
best with simple material, and when you get into the dynamics
and complexity of a full orchestra, they are not as satisfactory
as multi-driver setups".

I believe that Nelson Pass is right, but I do not understand the reason.

I have FE108 horns and they work very well with pianos, guitars, voices, ensambles...... But during the 7th of Beethoven there are parts that do not sound good.

I believe that the driver is very small...!!!
Now, I am constructing new horns with the FE168EZ.
But, If Nelson Pass is right, this it will not solve the problem.

I have seen the Horning Perikles, using a Lowthers wide range and a supertweeter and bass woofer. What happens in this case? There is confusion also?

Best regards.
Jaime

[soongsc]

Originally posted by Jaime
Originally posted by Nelson Pass

" That is pretty much my experience - Full range drivers are at their
best with simple material, and when you get into the dynamics
and complexity of a full orchestra, they are not as satisfactory
as multi-driver setups".

I believe that Nelson Pass is right, but I do not understand the reason.

I have FE108 horns and they work very well with pianos, guitars, voices, ensambles...... But during the 7th of Beethoven there are parts that do not sound good.

I believe that the driver is very small...!!!
Now, I am constructing new horns with the FE168EZ.
But, If Nelson Pass is right, this it will not solve the problem.

I have seen the Horning Perikles, using a Lowthers wide range and a supertweeter and bass woofer. What happens in this case? There is confusion also?

Best regards.
Jaime

There are actually a few issues related with this.

First is the the dynamic range. Do not get this mixed up with sensitivity as normally shown in the specs. If the driver does not have good resolution, then you will tend to turn up the volume to hear the details, what this will cause is you quickly hit the power limits of the driver making the music sound loud but compressed. If the driver has good resolution, then you will not need to turn the volume up so much. In a full orchestra, each instrument is at a lower level. So when you start to turn up the volume, you start reaching the dynamic range limit.

Second is the driver characteristics. If you look at the Foxtex curves. Notice that the impedance curve is not so smooth, and the FR also has some peaks and valleys. The things they don't show is phase of the FR or phase of impedance. Non-smoothness in the impedance curves and FR curves concurrently with the impedance curves will reveal cone resonances and phase shifts. In simple musical instruments, phase will make the instrument sound somewhat different, but not so bad. If you have complicated instruments playing together, the ear can no longer distiguish the individual instruments, and the total music will soound a bit noisy and compressed.

[el`Ol]

I believe that the larger part of the problem is that high efficiency speakers are mostly driven by very non-linear triode or MOSFET amps. My Ciares don`t lose their detail resolution in complex material on my Panasonic digital receiver.
I once listened to a fullranger at an Antique Sound Lab single-ended amp that could be switched between triode and pentode mode and the difference was immense in complex orchestra material.

[soongsc]

Originally posted by el`Ol
I believe that the larger part of the problem is that high efficiency speakers are mostly driven by very non-linear triode or MOSFET amps. My Ciares don`t lose their detail resolution in complex material on my Panasonic digital receiver.
I once listened to a fullranger at an Antique Sound Lab single-ended amp that could be switched between triode and pentode mode and the difference was immense in complex orchestra material.

That may be true, but it would have the same effects regardless full range or multi-way. Wouldn't it?

[el`Ol]

Originally posted by soongsc


That may be true, but it would have the same effects regardless full range or multi-way. Wouldn't it?

Yes, we would have to test a high efficiency multi-way system, horns also distort, and there are not so many without horns.

[Jaime]

But Nelson Pass talks about full range (and not horns) comparing with mutiway systems. A very good driver (Fostex F120A for example), would not work well in a complex situation?