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-   -   Ultimate real fullrange driver (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/57523-ultimate-real-fullrange-driver.html)

hugobors 18th May 2005 11:14 PM

Ultimate real fullrange driver
 
Hello,

I am looking for the best fullrange driver that can cover the bigger part of audio frequency range.
I've thought about Jordan JX92S that seems to be a good compromise, little diameter for treble, big Xmax for bass. What do you think about this choice and in which kind of load? Horn, TL or BR. I think the TL or BR is a better choice regarding T&S parameter. I've read elsewhere on this forum that a BR whith a volume of Vas accorded at Fs (15liter, 45hz) makes some people happy. I simulate this on WinISD and it give the better bass response -3dB point at 45Hz.

I think lowther or fostex are very good speaker too, but it seems to be very difficult to achieve good bass with them, too low Xmax. I have not enough room to install something like Nelson Pass's Klein-Horn... Maybe the best solution to load this kind of speaker...

My music taste is a little progressive rock and a lot classical music (I'm a professional violonist in a french orchestra) whith (of course) a preference for violin music. I like to listen the different sound of all the best violonists (unfortunetly almost all dead today :( ).
For me the best solution I've heard to distingue all this sound difference are esl or magneplanar but I'm sure that a good fullrange can do the same...

Regards
Hugues

lemans23 18th May 2005 11:19 PM

jordan in a br gets my vote

soongsc 19th May 2005 12:21 AM

Jordans reveal those differences.

el`Ol 19th May 2005 03:46 AM

I guess Veravox should outperform Jordan, if you like small metal diaphragms. I prefer big paper cones.


Oliver

LageB 19th May 2005 05:17 AM

I think Fostex F200A is a good candidate, alhtough bit costly. Kloss has written lots about this driver. You can also look at Bob Brines designs for the F200A.

LageB

soongsc 19th May 2005 09:21 AM

I am currently doing some analysis and tests with the JX92S compensation, but it would probably be next month till I get them boxed for some listening.

planet10 19th May 2005 10:16 AM

Given all the complcating environs in the real world there is no ultimate FR, but other candidates would include Exact, Fertin, Supravox

dave

pamaz 19th May 2005 01:10 PM

Jordan is excellent......
 
Don't want to be called an eretic (BTW we are in the full range forum), but i would just drop my impressions on the Jordan.
I've built the Jordan jx 92s TL enclosure according to the jordan site, listened to the smaller MLTL always based on the Jordan, and I have to agree that both these designs are excellent,with just a couple of drawbacks:
- dynamic is limited (and is not a problem of my amp)
- upper register is not so refined as the medium range.
These issue both disappeared once i've realized the Jim Griffin Minimonitor with the AC G2SI.
You will not loose coherency, dynamic is much better, and you gain a very refined treble.
Not from a tonal point of view, but as per the detail, you have something in the range of the Crosby modified Quad ESL63.
A few days back I had the onor of the visit of the director of Padua Conservatory, audiophile Himself and owner of an incredible (=really expensive) system.
He left my house praying me to realize for him such speakers!
With these boxes I've discovered a really new sound in most of the records I own where there are bowed instruments and brasses.
Please note that I have no affiliation with J. Griffin.
Is just that if you need a small detailed and correct system, this is IMHO the way to go. Remember to feed them a least with a very very refined 30-80 W power amp.
Just my 2 cents.

Ciao

Paolo

I forgot to say that the bass range is far way more extended than the one you can achieve with any lowther in 2 meters height horns. This is based on real facts, it's not just supposition.

soongsc 19th May 2005 04:25 PM

Dynamics are always limited in with less drivers.

The compensation network on the Jordan site compensates well for the low end. However, you will loss some highs. The Jim Griffin design is a good tradeoff to maintain effeciency and increase dynamics.

If you want to compensate better using the JX92 alone, the efficiency will suffer. This is one thing I am trying to do during my spare time.

hugobors 20th May 2005 12:03 AM

fx200?
 
Thanks for replies, very instructive...

Another good candidate is Fostex fx200, but seems to be discontinued...

el`Ol 20th May 2005 03:21 AM

Could this be the ultimate real fullrange driver?
If it was possible to get two single units I would mount it into baffles and try it.
http://www.getmad.us

planet10 20th May 2005 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by el`Ol
MAD
Thanx for that, i may have other uses for that tech...

dave

Scottmoose 20th May 2005 07:51 AM

We're talking ultimate drivers here? Lowther every time.
And no, it's not impossible to get bass out of them; you just have to be creative. Martin's done an ML-TL project with them, and apparantly they work extremely well:
http://www.quarter-wave.com/Project04/Project04.html
If you can't stomach the DX price, I suspect it will still work quite well with the much cehaper PM6C.

And I believe Bob has got a more refined version of his own which can also work with the Fostex FE207E in the works, although it might be a while in appearing on the site: he's still putting the finishing touches to his BR FE167E stand-mount / floor-stander (whichever floats your boat) hybrid.

Any other rivals? The Fostex F200A; this is Lowther terretory though, so it's horses for courses. I suspect the Fostex might have the stonger bass ultimately in, say, Bob's TL cabinet, but the Lowther's will be better in every other area. Then again, remember you can have the best driver in the world, but if you put it into a badly matched cabinet; you won't get very far: I've heard Lowthers sound far worse than my FE167Es in Martin's ML-TQWT and Bob's ML-TL enclosures thanks to the box they've been stuffed into. Conversely, I've heard cheap Pioneers sound better than badly matched Fostex.
I haven't heard the Jordans, so I won't pass comment, other than to say by reputation, I'm sure they're excellent, and I'm sure I'll aquire a pair over the coming months to play with, but you're never going to get a huge quantity of bass from what is basically a 3 inch driver.

Gasho 20th May 2005 08:14 AM

Hey guys , what about Manger or Bohlender-Graebener drivers. They are not exacly full range to deep bass , bu who wantŽs mids and hights to be modulated by big bass membrane excursion. They will be superb for everything above 200Hz.

joensd 20th May 2005 08:21 AM

Quote:

I guess Veravox should outperform Jordan, if you like small metal diaphragms. I prefer big paper cones.
Next weekend IŽll hopefully listening to the whole range of Veravox.
People/magazines say the Veravox 5(S or X) is the best midrange ever and also a brilliant fullranger. Not cheap but still cheaper than a Lowther.
Did you get a chance to listen to any of them?
BTW: IsnŽt the Veravox 3 the only metal chassis?

greets

http://www.visaton-bausaetze.de/hifi...ittle_wing.htm
(5S with supertweeter)

soongsc 20th May 2005 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by joensd

Next weekend IŽll hopefully listening to the whole range of Veravox.
People/magazines say the Veravox 5(S or X) is the best midrange ever and also a brilliant fullranger. Not cheap but still cheaper than a Lowther.
Did you get a chance to listen to any of them?
BTW: IsnŽt the Veravox 3 the only metal chassis?

greets

http://www.visaton-bausaetze.de/hifi...ittle_wing.htm
(5S with supertweeter)


Would be interested in knowing what the results are.
I sthere a site where we can view the specs?

hugobors 20th May 2005 10:40 AM

I've seen veravox data, but I think the resonnant frequency is not low enough to achieve good bass response.

What about Fostex FX120? that seems to be a good driver... and available...

Do someone compare this with Jordan JX92s???

joensd 20th May 2005 11:47 AM

Quote:

Would be interested in knowing what the results are.
IŽll let you know.
Quote:

I sthere a site where we can view the specs?
http://www.cantare-as.de/

greets

soongsc 20th May 2005 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by joensd

IŽll let you know.

http://www.cantare-as.de/

greets


I looked at the spec posted at the site, they do not have impedance curves of FR curves. Looking at the number, the Veravox don't look like Full Ranges.

el`Ol 20th May 2005 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by joensd

Next weekend IŽll hopefully listening to the whole range of Veravox.
People/magazines say the Veravox 5(S or X) is the best midrange ever and also a brilliant fullranger. Not cheap but still cheaper than a Lowther.
Did you get a chance to listen to any of them?
BTW: IsnŽt the Veravox 3 the only metal chassis?

greets

http://www.visaton-bausaetze.de/hifi...ittle_wing.htm
(5S with supertweeter)


I never listened to a Veravox, but my impression of ALR-Jordan speakers is that I prefer a softer sound.

joensd 20th May 2005 12:39 PM

Quote:

looked at the spec posted at the site, they do not have impedance curves of FR curves. Looking at the number, the Veravox don't look like Full Ranges.
Yep, nothing published at the site. YouŽre not the first to complain.
I can scan some graphs of the 3 and 5S from a german speaker magazin if youŽre interested.
The Veravox 3 has got ruler-flat FR with a slight peak above 10k similar to the FF85K. Distortion is much lower than of the TB W3-871S for example and the Veravox is also said to outperform both named candidates by a good margin (which can depend obviously).

greets

soongsc 20th May 2005 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by joensd

Yep, nothing published at the site. YouŽre not the first to complain.
I can scan some graphs of the 3 and 5S from a german speaker magazin if youŽre interested.
The Veravox 3 has got ruler-flat FR with a slight peak above 10k similar to the FF85K. Distortion is much lower than of the TB W3-871S for example and the Veravox is also said to outperform both named candidates by a good margin (which can depend obviously).

greets


Would appreciate the data. Lots of magazines are influenced by adds, so most would not reveal the total story of comparisons. I guess it's best to look at the design concept, and data first hopeing that the data is quite acurrate.

If the impedance curve at 20K rises to more than twice the lowest value, I would be interest in knowing what kind of compensation they use to get that FR curve. Normally you don't just get that curve from the driver alone.

The Veravox 3 seems to be closer to the Jordan JX53 in size, I would not consider the JX53 as full range though. The TB ones are probably 3 inches, which would be larger than the Veravox 3 I think. So when you compare drivers of different sizes, the physical limitations would differ.

ThorstenL 20th May 2005 01:09 PM

Konnichiwa,

Of those drivers I have heard so far and which one may coin "wideband" I find that the "sweet spot" is around 8 - 10". Much smaller drivers are too limited in terms of available dynamic range unless used as 2-Way with a seperate woofer and a fairly high crossover point, even then problems remain.

In the 8-10" Category I have heard the following:

various Lowthers
some AER
various old Radio Chassis
5" Drivers very similar to the Veravox 5" (same maker etc) in Horns
Goodmans Axiom 80, 110, Axiette etc.
Phy-Hp 8" & 12" Coax
Supravox 8"

Many of these are exceptional in certain areas, but have significant problems in others.

I like the Supravox and Phy-Hp whizzer cone less drivers best, but they need a supertweeter. From all of these I feel the Supravox fieldcoil Drivers are close to the best one can get, but cost is very high. Still, that is what I am using, with a fairly expensive horn supertweeter.

If money is a significant object I would think one of the medium size (5" or so) wizzer less Fostex's with a 200...250Hz crossover to a suitable woofer would be a good choice.

The alternative are good sounding large size (10"...12") fullrange drivers which only miss the extreme topend but have an otherwise balanced sound/tone with a good quality supertweeter. (Example Bastanis Prometheus Kit, Phy Hp Coax)

Ciao T

hugobors 20th May 2005 02:14 PM

Thanks Kuei Yang Wang for all this experience...

I like supravox and phy-hp too, but it's a little expensive for me... Do you think visaton B-200 could be a good candidate with a little tweeter? (why not a motorola piezzo like phy???)

Thanks

ThorstenL 20th May 2005 03:02 PM

Konnichiwa,

Quote:

Originally posted by hugobors
Do you think visaton B-200 could be a good candidate with a little tweeter? (why not a motorola piezzo like phy???)
I have not have had any experience with this driver. From the various Examples of use and the manufacturers data it appears that this driver has a very uneven balance which must be equalised (acoustically or electrically), which strikes me as a poor choice.

The ceramic magent Supravox drivers are available whizzer less in both a variant suitable to Sealed/Reflex/TQWT enclosures and one for TQWT and Opn Baffle and are not that expensive.

If cost is a real crunchpoint the Ciare CH250 seems to be good (I have to get a pair myself) or one of the various 4 - 5" Fullrangers available with a passive woofer section would seem a good idea. You get affordable 4"...5" fullrangers from Fostex, Tangband, Vifa and so on.

Sayonara

el`Ol 20th May 2005 03:29 PM

I own a pair of Ciare CH250. They have an excellent sense for fine details and I don`t feel the desire for a supertweeter.

Timn8ter 20th May 2005 03:49 PM

Funny no one has mentioned Hartley.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...=&pagenumber=6

ThorstenL 20th May 2005 04:01 PM

Konnichiwa,

Quote:

Originally posted by Timn8ter
Funny no one has mentioned Hartley.
Some e-mail exchanges with the company dissuaded me from even considering to continue my line of enquiry. I got the feeling they are desperate to avoid getting business....

Sayonara

Timn8ter 20th May 2005 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kuei Yang Wang
Konnichiwa,



Some e-mail exchanges with the company dissuaded me from even considering to continue my line of enquiry. I got the feeling they are desperate to avoid getting business....

Sayonara

I've seen this with other small companies that have been around for a few decades. They develop a "take it or leave it" attitude.

planet10 20th May 2005 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by hugobors
Do you think visaton B-200 could be a good candidate with a little tweeter? (why not a motorola piezzo like phy???)
My experience with the B-200 was very good. The OBs got around and a lot of people heard them. The graphs show a rising FR... we did not experience this. I'd say this driver is really good value for the money.

dave

DeonC 20th May 2005 10:50 PM

Hi KYW

How do the Supravox and Phy-Hp compare with your old Axiom 80?

Thanks,
Deon

ThorstenL 21st May 2005 12:11 AM

Konnichiwa,

Quote:

Originally posted by DeonC
How do the Supravox and Phy-Hp compare with your old Axiom 80?
The Supravox I have at home (Fieldcoil, Open Baffle version) have all the good sides of the Axiom 80, without the faults, except a slightly reduced maximum SPL before they sound congested (they still play bloody loud though).

The 8" Phy-Hp from the occasions I heard it has a simalar behaviour, but perhaps a little less dynamic range, the 12" Phy Hp does (IMHO) outperform the whole lot (including Axiom 80) on most counts but it is impractical for me, at this stage and I hope my own "less compromised speaker project" will, when it bears fruit be a notable step up from that....

All that said, if you have the Ax80 and you have tamed the balance errors and operate it within it's limits it is as good as most and the rest has more to do with preference and application, than with absolute quality.

Sayonara

weidok 21st May 2005 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by el`Ol
I own a pair of Ciare CH250. They have an excellent sense for fine details and I don`t feel the desire for a supertweeter.

Hello el'Ol

please tell us more about the Caire CH250..
show us some pictures or drawings if you want..

joensd 21st May 2005 01:01 PM

Quote:

more about the Caire CH250..
hereŽs another one:
http://www.audiodiskussion.de/foren/....php?idx=12374
(in german but with a picture)
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...=&pagenumber=1
(a thread about that speaker)

greets

el`Ol 21st May 2005 02:14 PM

The Ciare CH250 is a 10" dual cone speaker with pressed-steel basket for open baffle use. You find the specs at
http://www.spectrumaudio.de

I use them in polymer concrete baffles. I read about somebody who has made very good experience with glass baffles he had originally designed for the PHY. He sold his PHYs on Ebay after he had tried the Ciares. The PHYs are said to perform better in wooden baffles. Probably the heavy bronze and alnico construction resonates too much and needs energy transfer to the surrounding material. I guess the best solution for the Ciares should be natural stone.

I use lacqued plywood for the side walls. But I found myself nocking on OSB plates some weeks ago and what I heard sounded very promising. I guess it should be possible to build pianos from that material. When you chose a narrow design for the baffle it`s important that the side walls are not parallel, in order to avoid standing waves.

You find o lot of baffle designs for the PHY athttp://www.auditorium23.de that should also be suitable for the Ciare.

I don`t have a digital camera, so I can`t show you my baffles.
But I hope I was able to help you.


Oliver

Nuuk 21st May 2005 05:43 PM

I'm going to try the Ciare 250's in place of the (modified) Goodmans 201's in my open baffles (well I got the 201's when Thorsten had a pair and if he is going for Ciares, then this disciple will follow ;) )

One thing that comes to mind is modifying them. Has anybody thought about that or has anybody actually done it? The simple pressed steel basket looks like a good candidate for some work! :smash:

planet10 21st May 2005 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nuuk
The simple pressed steel basket looks like a good candidate for some work!
Calling out for duct seal.... to bad they don't sell it in anything but industrial grey.

dave

Nuuk 21st May 2005 06:46 PM

Quote:

Calling out for duct seal.... to bad they don't sell it in anything but industrial grey.
Looks like a case for some more of the psychadelic 'Bluetak'! ;)

On a serious note, with drivers this big, is there a case for strengthening the basket as well as damping it?

planet10 21st May 2005 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nuuk
On a serious note, with drivers this big, is there a case for strengthening the basket as well as damping it?
Possibly... you could get creative there too...

dave

timothy 21st May 2005 11:06 PM

full range....
 
2 Attachment(s)
Been listening to Lyeco Fullrange LY802Fs for a bit now. Seems they have something. Efficient enough (93) for tube amps.... at least my 8 watt 300Bs don't have a problem. They have pretty warm full bass (as it goes for any full range) compared to a few other full rangers I have heard.

Currently in TQWT enclosure. Took a bit of playing with stuffing....but in the end, jazz (what I listen to most) and classical sound pretty damn good.

Just finishing up designing BL horn for them. Over the next month or so will construct them (not small or light is the way it is looking!). I know, high Qts... but the math says I can, which is good enough reason to find out!

Specs> http://www.lyeco.com.tw/full%20range.htm

Nelson Pass 22nd May 2005 01:55 AM

That looks like an interesting driver. Any information on pricing
and availability?

dmason 22nd May 2005 02:54 AM

Nelson,

They quoted me $425 a pair. for the Lyecos, abit dear for me to bite right now.

All,

Based on an earlier, long and winding thread about Norbert's experience with the Ciare CH250, I ordered a pair and use them on a 1050X650 baffle with the driver mounted 29/29cm from upper, inside corner. This recipe of Norbert's works really well. Once worked in, she's a true music maker, no doubt. With some contouring, done in the digital, it can really shine. I love it.

I got mine from www.spectrumaudio.de but I know others have received theirs from the US Dist, Jack Arnott at
www.assistanceaudio.com for about $90/pr... Look also at the tasty Ciare and BMS coaxials. These I find highly interesting for future OB consideration, and would welcome any thoughts on as well.

I would also like to know, Mr Pass, if there are any plans for a future "F2" iteration. I know Mr Ed Sch. swears by his as well as TC, for the Sigmahorns....

Raj1 22nd May 2005 07:27 AM

question for thorsten
 
Hi Kuei san,

I have the norelco 9762m's, before I place them in the standard open baffle seen here,

http://www.sitecenter.dk/otc/nss-fol...n%20Baffle.JPG

Is there anything you can suggest, to get them to sound as ok as they can. I know they're not brilliant but they're a stop gap until I can afford the superior field coils, or whatever you decide to use when the time comes (another disciple)..........

any suggestions and advice would be humbly (in the japansese honarable style) appreciated..........


Thanks
Raja

miguel2 23rd May 2005 11:23 AM

I am using Beyma 8AG/n's in thin wall bass reflex cabinets (80 liter). I used them in OBs, but bass below 100 Hz was very thin. In these boxes they can go easily to 50 Hz, although their Fs is 105 Hz. I am still playing with stuffing and port dimensions to get rid of some "box" sound. OBs have really a nice sound that is difficult to achieve with a box.

Miguel

Cordraconis 24th May 2005 06:15 PM

Monacor SPH-60X ? (26€/pc)

First I wouldn't even mention this (I ordered 4 of them to play around with in a 9 liter BR. And also one SPH-212 as BR subwoofer. Drivers should arrive next week.) But the Ciare CH250's are in the same price ballpark, so ...

anyone has some exp with these SPH-60X drivers in BR? I'll try them first in cardbord OB, and then in sealed cardbord. Then I'll build my design.

Nelson Pass 24th May 2005 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dmason
I would also like to know, Mr Pass, if there are any plans for a future "F2" iteration. I know Mr Ed Sch. swears by his as well as TC, for the Sigmahorns....
The F2 exists, and production is awaiting the screener who
is doing the faceplates. General availability early June. The
F2 is different than the F1 in being a single-ended current
source, with a 2nd harmonic character and high impedance
RCA input only. The output wattage is 5 watts into 8 ohms,
but the bias is much higher, so that it will drive 4 ohms well.
The output impedance has been lowered to 15 ohms, as that
has been a much more popular figure.

More information soon.

Variac 24th May 2005 06:51 PM

Here is their website home page....

http://www.lyeco.com.tw/

Never heard of these guys, but they have some really interesting products. Looks like they make "dynavox" brand. The have (pat.)
Huge Voicecoil Technology How can we compete with that? might as well just give up...

Quote:

They quoted me $425 a pair. for the Lyecos,
So "they" is the manufacturer in Taiwan?

hugobors 25th May 2005 01:25 AM

Quote:

anyone has some exp with these SPH-60X drivers in BR? I'll try them first in cardbord OB, and then in sealed cardbord. Then I'll build my design.
I've not direct experience with this driver, but I used sph-68x/ad in Nelson pass's jlow. This is a good driver, and I think SPH-60X is good too...

Do someone get experience with monacor SP-200x, looks like very linear until 8-10kHz, can rich 70Hz in sealed box (53L) and 40Hz in BR (70L, 41Hz), not bad...

Thanks

sumacSK 25th May 2005 09:55 AM

SP-200X
 
>>Do someone get experience with monacor SP-200x, looks like very linear until 8-10kHz, can rich 70Hz in sealed box (53L) and 40Hz in BR (70L, 41Hz), not bad...


Hi,

I'm using this driver in 47 liter MLTL, f3-45Hz, designed in Martin King's tool. I use supertweeter - Eminence APT 80 crossed with 0.16 uF (if I remember right). I think it works really well, especially considering its price. Tweeter is needed IMO.
Here is some interesting project using this driver:
[http://www.audiodiskussion.de/foren/....php?idx=17438]
I want to try it on OB and do some mods to this driver.
I have a webpage describing my speakers: [http://blackmoore.szm.sk/] but it is in slovak language... :confused: You can look at the photos, but they don't work now :cannotbe: I'll fix it in near future... :smash:

Good luck Martin

sumacSK 25th May 2005 03:29 PM

SP-200X
 
Hi,

This site works well : http://members.fortunecity.com/sumacsk/


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