My project is envisioned as follows;
A wide range driver on an open baffle operating from about 120hz up to around 5000 hz. A tweeter will extnd the response.
Below 120hz I will use an active crossover to 2-10" woofers also on open baffle. The lowpass to woofers will be 24db and the highpass to the wide range will be 12db .
I will apply equalization to both the woofers and wide range.
Given these requirements for the wide range and the open baffle condition, are there many choices?
I was thinking about the Adire WR125, but it is only a 5" driver and I am worried about over extending at the 120hz crossover.
Do I need to consider a larger wide range driver?
A wide range driver on an open baffle operating from about 120hz up to around 5000 hz. A tweeter will extnd the response.
Below 120hz I will use an active crossover to 2-10" woofers also on open baffle. The lowpass to woofers will be 24db and the highpass to the wide range will be 12db .
I will apply equalization to both the woofers and wide range.
Given these requirements for the wide range and the open baffle condition, are there many choices?
I was thinking about the Adire WR125, but it is only a 5" driver and I am worried about over extending at the 120hz crossover.
Do I need to consider a larger wide range driver?
Driver selection
As you must know there is not one correct answer to your question, cost and SPL at a minimum enter into the decision. Also higher order crossovers will allow you to push the drivers closer to their limits.
If you are not familiar with it, the LDSG (Loudspeaker Driver Selection Guide) is a spectacular resource. Here is a link.
http://ldsg.snippets.org/index.php3
Fostex and Tang Band make wide range drivers as well as the famous(infamous?) Manger. There are some conventional drivers that will just make that frequency range including a couple made by Audio Technology (not cheap).
Good luck.
As you must know there is not one correct answer to your question, cost and SPL at a minimum enter into the decision. Also higher order crossovers will allow you to push the drivers closer to their limits.
If you are not familiar with it, the LDSG (Loudspeaker Driver Selection Guide) is a spectacular resource. Here is a link.
http://ldsg.snippets.org/index.php3
Fostex and Tang Band make wide range drivers as well as the famous(infamous?) Manger. There are some conventional drivers that will just make that frequency range including a couple made by Audio Technology (not cheap).
Good luck.
2nd thoughts
I know the wr125 would sound good at moderate level, but I also like to play a lot of movies LOUDLY. I did not really want to go with multiple mids. Perhaps I should look at a larger driver like an Adire Extremis and choose a lower crossover point.
OOps, now I'm in the wrong forum!
I know the wr125 would sound good at moderate level, but I also like to play a lot of movies LOUDLY. I did not really want to go with multiple mids. Perhaps I should look at a larger driver like an Adire Extremis and choose a lower crossover point.
OOps, now I'm in the wrong forum!
Do you already have the 10's ? If so why only let them go up to 120? I'm using a Fostex FE206 paired with a relatively high Qts realistic 10" of unknown parameters on a small OB. With just a coil on the woofer, I'm getting a seamless integration with the natural rolloff of the 206 which is running full range. I'd say pick drivers you like and listen to what they can do before choosing XO points and slopes. It seems like you're putting the cart before the horse to me.
I already have the 10"s - I bought some 10" Audax PR240Z0 when Madisound cleared them out. They are really subwoofers so I don't think they will go much higher but I may be wrong.
The reason I chose the 120 hz is because I was planning to use a Rane SSE35, which is a home theater equalizer that also has a 4th order lowpass function to feed stereo subwoofers. It only has 2 choices for the crossover point and 120hz is the highest. I can use the very complete bass equalizer section to level out the reponse of the 10"s and also can equalize the wide range response as well.
I will still need to highpass the wide range driver. The Rane splits the signal between stereo subwoofers lowpassed with 24db at 120hz and a full range output for satellite speakers. I was going to bi-amp so I figured I could use a low level passive xover before the amp section driving the widerange speakers. PE sells Fmods that could do this with a 2ndorder highpass, or I could cook up my own.
Using the Rane, I can equalize +/- 6db which should be enough range to adjust for a fairly smoothe response. Probably some would pooh pooh the equalizer route, but I think that eliminating passive components is going to provide an improvement in sound.
http://www.rane.com/sse35.html
Dave, that B200 looks like a very nice driver, but from 120hz to the point where I would cross to a tweeter it rises in response alot more than 6 db. How do you normally deal with this ?
Also, where would you buy Visaton in the States? and how much is it going to cost? I also like the looks of the Fostex FW208N in an 8" driver and Madisound sells these. Still, they are $160 each. I can buy a pair of the WR 125ST for less and put a tweeter in between.
I have a couple of multi channel amps that I can use. A 4 channel Adcom and a 5 channel Newcastle and I will listen to both.
The reason I chose the 120 hz is because I was planning to use a Rane SSE35, which is a home theater equalizer that also has a 4th order lowpass function to feed stereo subwoofers. It only has 2 choices for the crossover point and 120hz is the highest. I can use the very complete bass equalizer section to level out the reponse of the 10"s and also can equalize the wide range response as well.
I will still need to highpass the wide range driver. The Rane splits the signal between stereo subwoofers lowpassed with 24db at 120hz and a full range output for satellite speakers. I was going to bi-amp so I figured I could use a low level passive xover before the amp section driving the widerange speakers. PE sells Fmods that could do this with a 2ndorder highpass, or I could cook up my own.
Using the Rane, I can equalize +/- 6db which should be enough range to adjust for a fairly smoothe response. Probably some would pooh pooh the equalizer route, but I think that eliminating passive components is going to provide an improvement in sound.
http://www.rane.com/sse35.html
Dave, that B200 looks like a very nice driver, but from 120hz to the point where I would cross to a tweeter it rises in response alot more than 6 db. How do you normally deal with this ?
Also, where would you buy Visaton in the States? and how much is it going to cost? I also like the looks of the Fostex FW208N in an 8" driver and Madisound sells these. Still, they are $160 each. I can buy a pair of the WR 125ST for less and put a tweeter in between.
I have a couple of multi channel amps that I can use. A 4 channel Adcom and a 5 channel Newcastle and I will listen to both.
johnmark said:
I've seen the graphs, i've seen the EQs, but the pair i had on open baffles did not exhibit a FR that sounds like the charts look. Truly an awesome driver.
They can be had from Solen for $306 USD/pr (the pair i have on loan from Bob at CSS are available for a bit less than that -- i'm still hoping i haven't sold them by the time i can afford to buy them, but that isn't going to be soon, so best to see them off to a good home)
dave
Visaton B200
to anyone who can afford the real estate that a proper set of open baffles for these require STUNNING presence and clean bass (but not efficient enough for 2w SET )
OK for a fairly wide listening window, a horn or ribbon tweeter might be necessary. Would be really fun to mate with a pair of Heil AMT's crossed over around 8-10K? The mounting could be a bit tricky
to anyone who can afford the real estate that a proper set of open baffles for these require STUNNING presence and clean bass (but not efficient enough for 2w SET )
OK for a fairly wide listening window, a horn or ribbon tweeter might be necessary. Would be really fun to mate with a pair of Heil AMT's crossed over around 8-10K? The mounting could be a bit tricky
I need to make sure that my acceptable listening window extends at least 45 deg of axis because of HT considerations and my seating. I am wondering if this limits the maximum size of the wide range driver.
OK to answer my own question I know this depends on the chosen crossover frequency if the wide range is not allowed to run to it's natural upper limits. Because I want the wide range to extend down to 120hz on an open baffle, I think all the wide range drivers with limited xmax are off the team.
In the under $100 range I have looked at;
The extremis would be an excellant candidate based on xmax, but I have heard that the frequency response above 1 k is not very smoothe, and I have not seen a response chart for off- axis to really know if I could expect to take it up to 4.5-5k
The WR125 woud be better in off axis and has a smoother freq response, but based on size of cone, I don't know if a single driver would put out the decibels required with a 2nd order highpass at 120hz. Any help or advice on this one??
My other option that I have started to look at is a Morel mw164 a 6.5" which has a high Q and a response that looks appropriate to an open baffle, and it has adequate xmax. I don't think I could take it as high, but it should be OK to 4 k using a 2nd ordr passive crossover to tweeter. I know this really does'nt qualify as full range, but should sound good on the open baffle.
http://www.morelusa.com/woofers/mw-164.htm
Another "conventional" driver I have used in the past is the Audax HM130C0 a 5.25" mid woofer and I think it has just enough xmax and will extend to at least 5k. I believe they are still available.
At the higher $ range, the B200 looks great. But I still wonder about off-axis above 5k. Even if I spend the extra dollars.
I looked at the Monacor website and their SPH 165KEP looks like a real winner, but I don't think I can buy in US.
OK to answer my own question I know this depends on the chosen crossover frequency if the wide range is not allowed to run to it's natural upper limits. Because I want the wide range to extend down to 120hz on an open baffle, I think all the wide range drivers with limited xmax are off the team.
In the under $100 range I have looked at;
The extremis would be an excellant candidate based on xmax, but I have heard that the frequency response above 1 k is not very smoothe, and I have not seen a response chart for off- axis to really know if I could expect to take it up to 4.5-5k
The WR125 woud be better in off axis and has a smoother freq response, but based on size of cone, I don't know if a single driver would put out the decibels required with a 2nd order highpass at 120hz. Any help or advice on this one??
My other option that I have started to look at is a Morel mw164 a 6.5" which has a high Q and a response that looks appropriate to an open baffle, and it has adequate xmax. I don't think I could take it as high, but it should be OK to 4 k using a 2nd ordr passive crossover to tweeter. I know this really does'nt qualify as full range, but should sound good on the open baffle.
http://www.morelusa.com/woofers/mw-164.htm
Another "conventional" driver I have used in the past is the Audax HM130C0 a 5.25" mid woofer and I think it has just enough xmax and will extend to at least 5k. I believe they are still available.
At the higher $ range, the B200 looks great. But I still wonder about off-axis above 5k. Even if I spend the extra dollars.
I looked at the Monacor website and their SPH 165KEP looks like a real winner, but I don't think I can buy in US.
If the HT is using a projector and off axis is important, I would strongly suggest considering OB line arrays. It could be done quite economically using something like the $5 drivers discussed here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41380
An array gives you a sound image to match your large video image. With power tapering you can achieve great imaging and the distance vs SPL advantage of arrays makes for a very much larger sweet spot and it makes off axis listening more balanced than is possible with ANY point source speaker. IMHO with a projected image, an OB line array is very difficult to beat and it's great an unique for music too.
An array gives you a sound image to match your large video image. With power tapering you can achieve great imaging and the distance vs SPL advantage of arrays makes for a very much larger sweet spot and it makes off axis listening more balanced than is possible with ANY point source speaker. IMHO with a projected image, an OB line array is very difficult to beat and it's great an unique for music too.
Off-axis of the Extremis is about the same as all other 6.5" - 7" woofers; it's 95% a function of the diameter of the driver, 5% a function of cone shape, phase plugs, and the like. Don't expect ANY 6.5"/7" woofer to have good dispersion at 4 kHz at 45 degrees off axis. Simply won't happen.
FR is actually quite smooth - much of the measurements being posted about aren't really applicable to real-world applications. Nearfield measurements are NOT reflective of the real far-field performance of a driver, and in fact are not repeatable from driver to driver without a LOT of precision.
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio
FR is actually quite smooth - much of the measurements being posted about aren't really applicable to real-world applications. Nearfield measurements are NOT reflective of the real far-field performance of a driver, and in fact are not repeatable from driver to driver without a LOT of precision.
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio
Dan,
Thanks for stopping in. How about cutting the guy in on a deal on the AV3's? They work great on OB, the small diameter with enable the array to go higher in frequency before comb filtering suppresses the HF. OB Arrays of 16-24 or more AV3's per side is something I have been wanting to try.
Thanks for stopping in. How about cutting the guy in on a deal on the AV3's? They work great on OB, the small diameter with enable the array to go higher in frequency before comb filtering suppresses the HF. OB Arrays of 16-24 or more AV3's per side is something I have been wanting to try.
The Audax PR240s are good up to about 500Hz, but if you only run them up to 300Hz you still have a wide choice. How about Audax PR170s? They are very nice drivers and will easily cover up to 5K, though you might need a steep crossover at that point as they break down quite quickly above that.
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