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Old 16th February 2005, 02:29 PM   #1
Ropie is offline Ropie  United Kingdom
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Default Buschhorn Driver Upgrade...

Hi,

I was considering upgrading the drivers in my leather Buschhorns - at present they have phase-plugged RS 40-1197s. Sometimes I feel they are lacking in clarity, particularly at the lower end of the frequency range.

My questions are:

1. Is it really worth upgrading the drivers at all, is there likely to be a noticeable improvement in sound quality?

2. Would it be worth going for the Fostex FE103E or the more costly FE108EZ?

3. Are any major cabinet changes needed to accomodate the new drivers, bearing in mind I built the MkII Buschhorn (and really don't want to alter the cabinets much)?

Hope someone has the appropriate experince and answers
Thanks!

Piero
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Old 16th February 2005, 04:41 PM   #2
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Piero,

I have a pair of BHs MKII with FE108EZs; to get 'em to sing with these drivers you have to make the CC considerably smaller. This is no problem really, as you can just fit a piece of wood at the beginning of the CC, closing it tightly. Don't forget to put some sort of stuffing into it before sealing. ;-)

I haven't heard the BH with the FE103s, but the 108s sound excellent to me. The have a really good treble resolution IMHO (I tried to integrate a super tweeter via 'decent' crossover network and always liked the horns better without) and produce a nice, tuneful bass. Guessing from the data sheets, the 108s should give you a higher SPL as well.

Using them with a GC, you might prefer them with some kind of correction circuit. I prefererred this solution most.

I'd say 'go for it', but I am biased, of course. :-)

Best regards,

Oliver
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Old 16th February 2005, 07:48 PM   #3
Ropie is offline Ropie  United Kingdom
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Thanks Oliver - I was hoping someone would say something like that as there are already so many good things about these speakers!

Do you mean fit a bit of wood here (marked in red)?

Click the image to open in full size.

Sounds like good advice but what is the exact reason for it?

BTW: Do you have any photos of your speakers?
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Old 16th February 2005, 08:36 PM   #4
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Piero,

your picture is spot on. I have fiddled with the CC for about 8 weeks and I could not get them to sound 'right' to my ears at first. There was a bugging emphasis on the bass and a hollow, booming sound with some frequencies.

I hadn't heard too many horns before, but I guessed this wasn't what some would call 'the typical horn sound'. The Fostex recommended enclosure (PDF) has a much smaller CC, so I started decreasing the size. The booming went and the bass response smoothed out. Unfortunately I have no measuring equipment, but I regularly try to get 2nd/3rd/... opinions, and they all agreed.

I only have 'older' pictures (dating back to November last year), now the horns have 2 coats of undercoat and three coats of dark red (when the paint job will be finished, I'll try to take a few pics; MDF is a b*tch to paint properly).

There is also a piece of a broomstick in both horn mouths now which made them more rigid and improved the bass quite a bit.

The black felt is now gone, it was a simple try to smooth out the bass response.

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

Best regards,

Oliver
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Old 16th February 2005, 09:49 PM   #5
Ropie is offline Ropie  United Kingdom
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Excellent stuff!

Thanks for your clear advice

Quote:
Originally posted by coredump
There is also a piece of a broomstick in both horn mouths now which made them more rigid and improved the bass quite a bit.
I'll try this too.
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Old 17th February 2005, 05:51 AM   #6
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Piero,

if you want to experiment with this: two pieces of cork (like those cork breadboards) are sufficient to 'seal' the CCs for testing purposes. Just but some wool or other stuffing behind it. Cork gives you some flexibility here as you can cut it easily to match your wanted CC size. :-)

Best regards,

Oliver
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Old 17th February 2005, 06:44 AM   #7
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My buddy Chris' B_horns started out with 1197s, then upgraded to FE103As, phase plugs added later. These were really good.

He then got some FE108es, prettified the B-Horns & now 300 + hrs later they are sounding VERY good. At 1st the bass was really light, but that has matured as the drivers break in... also choice of amplifier has helped (now a trioded EL84 Parafeed design). They are still lighter on the bottom than the 1197 of 103A but very tuneful and clearly better thru the mids and top.

I have emailed him this thread -- he will be really interested in the CC adjustment (he knows he should be playing with it, but didn't want to do anything till they had broken in.

I'd really like to hear phase plugs in these, but probably wn't get to until i can afford a pr of my own -- i do have one client who liked what that did (his dustcaps were attacked by kids)

dave
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Old 17th February 2005, 08:42 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by coredump
two pieces of cork (like those cork breadboards) are sufficient to 'seal' the CCs for testing purposes.
I have some flooring samples at work that I can use for this purpose


Quote:
Originally posted by planet10
They are still lighter on the bottom than the 1197 of 103A but very tuneful and clearly better thru the mids and top.
I personally wouldn't be too worried about a slight loss of bass extension, as long as the integration of the frequencies is improved. That's really the only major fault I have with my BHorns as they are now - the bass can be a bit murky and artificial sounding. The mids and highs are really great.

Quote:
I'd really like to hear phase plugs in these, but probably wn't get to until i can afford a pr of my own -- i do have one client who liked what that did (his dustcaps were attacked by kids)
I probably wouldn't risk cutting out the dustcaps of a pair of $90 drivers, unless my daughter also decided to attack
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Old 17th February 2005, 05:05 PM   #9
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Default B-Horns CC

Dave: thanks for the post - I'll definitely play with this soon - as soon as Terry's AN-E cabs are glued up.

Even as they sit now, the consensus was better overall performance than the phase plugged FE103A(lnico) in 'recommended Fostex' enclosure. I happened to have just enough extra BB to fabricate these . The recommended 108ESigma horns calls for 29 parts per box and 2.5 sheets @ 4x8. With the goofy translation of the cut plan to 5x5' Baltic birch ply running to probably 4 sheets, that's a lot of time and material to invest to prove a point. Now, if someone volunteers to bring a pair of these to compare to the B-Horns, I'd reconsider.

I may have caught only the tail end of this thread, is there a consensus on treatment of the large internal voids? I sand filled mine about a year and half ago and have been quite pleased.

A resounding yes vote to the question "is the FE108E Sigma worth the upgrade?" In well executed horn, absolutely, and IMHO no BSC or other compensation required, and definitely SET candidate vs Gain Clone (sorry guys, although the GC I heard had palpably superior low-end extension and weight, the triode EL84 literally creamed it. Since most of my listening is well below 90dB ( or even 80), how many watts do I really need?
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Old 17th February 2005, 05:18 PM   #10
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Default Re: B-Horns CC

Quote:
chrisb wrote:
I may have caught only the tail end of this thread, is there a consensus on treatment of the large internal voids? I sand filled mine about a year and half ago and have been quite pleased.
Same here.

Best regards,

Oliver
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