Hi,
I was considering upgrading the drivers in my leather Buschhorns - at present they have phase-plugged RS 40-1197s. Sometimes I feel they are lacking in clarity, particularly at the lower end of the frequency range.
My questions are:
1. Is it really worth upgrading the drivers at all, is there likely to be a noticeable improvement in sound quality?
2. Would it be worth going for the Fostex FE103E or the more costly FE108EZ?
3. Are any major cabinet changes needed to accomodate the new drivers, bearing in mind I built the MkII Buschhorn (and really don't want to alter the cabinets much)?
Hope someone has the appropriate experince and answers
Thanks!
Piero
I was considering upgrading the drivers in my leather Buschhorns - at present they have phase-plugged RS 40-1197s. Sometimes I feel they are lacking in clarity, particularly at the lower end of the frequency range.
My questions are:
1. Is it really worth upgrading the drivers at all, is there likely to be a noticeable improvement in sound quality?
2. Would it be worth going for the Fostex FE103E or the more costly FE108EZ?
3. Are any major cabinet changes needed to accomodate the new drivers, bearing in mind I built the MkII Buschhorn (and really don't want to alter the cabinets much)?
Hope someone has the appropriate experince and answers
Thanks!
Piero
Piero,
I have a pair of BHs MKII with FE108EZs; to get 'em to sing with these drivers you have to make the CC considerably smaller. This is no problem really, as you can just fit a piece of wood at the beginning of the CC, closing it tightly. Don't forget to put some sort of stuffing into it before sealing. ;-)
I haven't heard the BH with the FE103s, but the 108s sound excellent to me. The have a really good treble resolution IMHO (I tried to integrate a super tweeter via 'decent' crossover network and always liked the horns better without) and produce a nice, tuneful bass. Guessing from the data sheets, the 108s should give you a higher SPL as well.
Using them with a GC, you might prefer them with some kind of correction circuit. I prefererred this solution most.
I'd say 'go for it', but I am biased, of course.
Best regards,
Oliver
I have a pair of BHs MKII with FE108EZs; to get 'em to sing with these drivers you have to make the CC considerably smaller. This is no problem really, as you can just fit a piece of wood at the beginning of the CC, closing it tightly. Don't forget to put some sort of stuffing into it before sealing. ;-)
I haven't heard the BH with the FE103s, but the 108s sound excellent to me. The have a really good treble resolution IMHO (I tried to integrate a super tweeter via 'decent' crossover network and always liked the horns better without) and produce a nice, tuneful bass. Guessing from the data sheets, the 108s should give you a higher SPL as well.
Using them with a GC, you might prefer them with some kind of correction circuit. I prefererred this solution most.
I'd say 'go for it', but I am biased, of course.
Best regards,
Oliver
Thanks Oliver - I was hoping someone would say something like that as there are already so many good things about these speakers!
Do you mean fit a bit of wood here (marked in red)?
Sounds like good advice but what is the exact reason for it?
BTW: Do you have any photos of your speakers?
Do you mean fit a bit of wood here (marked in red)?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Sounds like good advice but what is the exact reason for it?
BTW: Do you have any photos of your speakers?
Piero,
your picture is spot on. I have fiddled with the CC for about 8 weeks and I could not get them to sound 'right' to my ears at first. There was a bugging emphasis on the bass and a hollow, booming sound with some frequencies.
I hadn't heard too many horns before, but I guessed this wasn't what some would call 'the typical horn sound'. The Fostex recommended enclosure (PDF) has a much smaller CC, so I started decreasing the size. The booming went and the bass response smoothed out. Unfortunately I have no measuring equipment, but I regularly try to get 2nd/3rd/... opinions, and they all agreed.
I only have 'older' pictures (dating back to November last year), now the horns have 2 coats of undercoat and three coats of dark red (when the paint job will be finished, I'll try to take a few pics; MDF is a b*tch to paint properly).
There is also a piece of a broomstick in both horn mouths now which made them more rigid and improved the bass quite a bit.
The black felt is now gone, it was a simple try to smooth out the bass response.
Best regards,
Oliver
your picture is spot on. I have fiddled with the CC for about 8 weeks and I could not get them to sound 'right' to my ears at first. There was a bugging emphasis on the bass and a hollow, booming sound with some frequencies.
I hadn't heard too many horns before, but I guessed this wasn't what some would call 'the typical horn sound'. The Fostex recommended enclosure (PDF) has a much smaller CC, so I started decreasing the size. The booming went and the bass response smoothed out. Unfortunately I have no measuring equipment, but I regularly try to get 2nd/3rd/... opinions, and they all agreed.
I only have 'older' pictures (dating back to November last year), now the horns have 2 coats of undercoat and three coats of dark red (when the paint job will be finished, I'll try to take a few pics; MDF is a b*tch to paint properly).
There is also a piece of a broomstick in both horn mouths now which made them more rigid and improved the bass quite a bit.
The black felt is now gone, it was a simple try to smooth out the bass response.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Best regards,
Oliver
Piero,
if you want to experiment with this: two pieces of cork (like those cork breadboards) are sufficient to 'seal' the CCs for testing purposes. Just but some wool or other stuffing behind it. Cork gives you some flexibility here as you can cut it easily to match your wanted CC size.
Best regards,
Oliver
if you want to experiment with this: two pieces of cork (like those cork breadboards) are sufficient to 'seal' the CCs for testing purposes. Just but some wool or other stuffing behind it. Cork gives you some flexibility here as you can cut it easily to match your wanted CC size.
Best regards,
Oliver
My buddy Chris' B_horns started out with 1197s, then upgraded to FE103As, phase plugs added later. These were really good.
He then got some FE108es, prettified the B-Horns & now 300 + hrs later they are sounding VERY good. At 1st the bass was really light, but that has matured as the drivers break in... also choice of amplifier has helped (now a trioded EL84 Parafeed design). They are still lighter on the bottom than the 1197 of 103A but very tuneful and clearly better thru the mids and top.
I have emailed him this thread -- he will be really interested in the CC adjustment (he knows he should be playing with it, but didn't want to do anything till they had broken in.
I'd really like to hear phase plugs in these, but probably wn't get to until i can afford a pr of my own -- i do have one client who liked what that did (his dustcaps were attacked by kids)
dave
He then got some FE108es, prettified the B-Horns & now 300 + hrs later they are sounding VERY good. At 1st the bass was really light, but that has matured as the drivers break in... also choice of amplifier has helped (now a trioded EL84 Parafeed design). They are still lighter on the bottom than the 1197 of 103A but very tuneful and clearly better thru the mids and top.
I have emailed him this thread -- he will be really interested in the CC adjustment (he knows he should be playing with it, but didn't want to do anything till they had broken in.
I'd really like to hear phase plugs in these, but probably wn't get to until i can afford a pr of my own -- i do have one client who liked what that did (his dustcaps were attacked by kids)
dave
Attachments
coredump said:
I have some flooring samples at work that I can use for this purpose
planet10 said:
I personally wouldn't be too worried about a slight loss of bass extension, as long as the integration of the frequencies is improved. That's really the only major fault I have with my BHorns as they are now - the bass can be a bit murky and artificial sounding. The mids and highs are really great.
I probably wouldn't risk cutting out the dustcaps of a pair of $90 drivers, unless my daughter also decided to attack
B-Horns CC
Dave: thanks for the post - I'll definitely play with this soon - as soon as Terry's AN-E cabs are glued up.
Even as they sit now, the consensus was better overall performance than the phase plugged FE103A(lnico) in 'recommended Fostex' enclosure. I happened to have just enough extra BB to fabricate these . The recommended 108ESigma horns calls for 29 parts per box and 2.5 sheets @ 4x8. With the goofy translation of the cut plan to 5x5' Baltic birch ply running to probably 4 sheets, that's a lot of time and material to invest to prove a point. Now, if someone volunteers to bring a pair of these to compare to the B-Horns, I'd reconsider.
I may have caught only the tail end of this thread, is there a consensus on treatment of the large internal voids? I sand filled mine about a year and half ago and have been quite pleased.
A resounding yes vote to the question "is the FE108E Sigma worth the upgrade?" In well executed horn, absolutely, and IMHO no BSC or other compensation required, and definitely SET candidate vs Gain Clone (sorry guys, although the GC I heard had palpably superior low-end extension and weight, the triode EL84 literally creamed it. Since most of my listening is well below 90dB ( or even 80), how many watts do I really need?
Dave: thanks for the post - I'll definitely play with this soon - as soon as Terry's AN-E cabs are glued up.
Even as they sit now, the consensus was better overall performance than the phase plugged FE103A(lnico) in 'recommended Fostex' enclosure. I happened to have just enough extra BB to fabricate these . The recommended 108ESigma horns calls for 29 parts per box and 2.5 sheets @ 4x8. With the goofy translation of the cut plan to 5x5' Baltic birch ply running to probably 4 sheets, that's a lot of time and material to invest to prove a point. Now, if someone volunteers to bring a pair of these to compare to the B-Horns, I'd reconsider.
I may have caught only the tail end of this thread, is there a consensus on treatment of the large internal voids? I sand filled mine about a year and half ago and have been quite pleased.
A resounding yes vote to the question "is the FE108E Sigma worth the upgrade?" In well executed horn, absolutely, and IMHO no BSC or other compensation required, and definitely SET candidate vs Gain Clone (sorry guys, although the GC I heard had palpably superior low-end extension and weight, the triode EL84 literally creamed it. Since most of my listening is well below 90dB ( or even 80), how many watts do I really need?
Re: B-Horns CC
Hi Chrisb,
Here's my version, keeping the weight low down:
Glad you also think the upgrade is worth it as I am keen to make some changes. However I am a happy GC builder/owner, though mine does have a valve buffer per channel which smoothed and opened-up the sound markedly over the basic IGC.
Hi Chrisb,
chrisb said:
Here's my version, keeping the weight low down:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Glad you also think the upgrade is worth it as I am keen to make some changes. However I am a happy GC builder/owner, though mine does have a valve buffer per channel which smoothed and opened-up the sound markedly over the basic IGC.
Same story here, the FE108ES is definately more dynamic than the FE103E although it has the same tendency to shout during the break-in period. Filling the voids with sand is a good idea to cut back resonancies and it adds some mass to the cabinet.
I added close to 12 kilo's of sand per cabinet.
I added close to 12 kilo's of sand per cabinet.
Compression chamber
Well, I finally got around to modding the compression chamber on the B-horns (quite late) last night, so I didn't get to listen until this evening.
19mm BB birch plate, friction fit, with a 12mm layer of cotton felt, duct-seal caulking and plenty of felt stuffing behind the plate.
The YMMV caveat on any tweakage and system voicing certainly applies in my case. While it definitely added to low end weight and possibly extension on the FE108E Sigmas, the most immediate impression was of substantial loss of dynamics, and a very closed in ( I hesitate to use the word "honky") midrange, particularly on female vocals.
The speakers are located on a diagonal axis across the corner of the living room, approx .5 meter from the side walls. Previously the soundstage had great depth and extended well past the enclosures, both laterally and beyond the walls - on a minimalist engineered live recording, they simply disappeared.
By contrast, with the undersized compression chamber, they sounded like a pair of highly compressed, cheap bookshelf boxes.
So experiment to your heart's content, but don't glue them permanently in place until you're damned sure it's an overall improvement.
Well, I finally got around to modding the compression chamber on the B-horns (quite late) last night, so I didn't get to listen until this evening.
19mm BB birch plate, friction fit, with a 12mm layer of cotton felt, duct-seal caulking and plenty of felt stuffing behind the plate.
The YMMV caveat on any tweakage and system voicing certainly applies in my case. While it definitely added to low end weight and possibly extension on the FE108E Sigmas, the most immediate impression was of substantial loss of dynamics, and a very closed in ( I hesitate to use the word "honky") midrange, particularly on female vocals.
The speakers are located on a diagonal axis across the corner of the living room, approx .5 meter from the side walls. Previously the soundstage had great depth and extended well past the enclosures, both laterally and beyond the walls - on a minimalist engineered live recording, they simply disappeared.
By contrast, with the undersized compression chamber, they sounded like a pair of highly compressed, cheap bookshelf boxes.
So experiment to your heart's content, but don't glue them permanently in place until you're damned sure it's an overall improvement.
Re: Compression chamber
I was there... it was quite a change in character. What is interesting is that the Fostex recommended FE103 horn that i have in my living room now (with FE103A) has some very similar problems... this latest B-Horn experiment has given me some ideas...
dave
chrisb said:
I was there... it was quite a change in character. What is interesting is that the Fostex recommended FE103 horn that i have in my living room now (with FE103A) has some very similar problems... this latest B-Horn experiment has given me some ideas...
dave
Re: Re: Re: Compression chamber
Your Milage May Vary, as in: your results may differ from mine.
BTW, Chris' result does really differ from mine.
Chris,
try sticking a small piece of sheepwool or similar into the throat (make sure it's a very small strip), this may reduce the honking effect. Otherwise, it's always a good move to put some thin felt on the inside of the 1st 90cms of the throat.
Interestingly, after reducing the CC in my case all the voices came quite a bit more "to the front of the stage". For example, Norah Jones singing "Cold, Cold Heart" was very organic and much better defined than before. Bloc Party's "Like Eating Glass" has some real weight and punch now. In my case, after decreasing the CC (which isn't 'undersized' in my book, as the driver starts giving up below 200Hz; you have to use the horn to get a somewhere-near-flat FR) was a defintive improvement. The voice reproduction alone is much better than any bookshelf speaker in the same price range I know of.
Maybe it's because you use different amplification (I use solid state), maybe you listen to different music.
Sorry it didn't work out for you.
Best regards,
Oliver
Your Milage May Vary, as in: your results may differ from mine.
BTW, Chris' result does really differ from mine.
Chris,
try sticking a small piece of sheepwool or similar into the throat (make sure it's a very small strip), this may reduce the honking effect. Otherwise, it's always a good move to put some thin felt on the inside of the 1st 90cms of the throat.
Interestingly, after reducing the CC in my case all the voices came quite a bit more "to the front of the stage". For example, Norah Jones singing "Cold, Cold Heart" was very organic and much better defined than before. Bloc Party's "Like Eating Glass" has some real weight and punch now. In my case, after decreasing the CC (which isn't 'undersized' in my book, as the driver starts giving up below 200Hz; you have to use the horn to get a somewhere-near-flat FR) was a defintive improvement. The voice reproduction alone is much better than any bookshelf speaker in the same price range I know of.
Maybe it's because you use different amplification (I use solid state), maybe you listen to different music.
Sorry it didn't work out for you.
Best regards,
Oliver
Re: Compression chamber
I was slightly irritated by your findings, as IME missing transients/dynamics is rather an overdamping issue than a CC-size one. I hope you didn't use 12mm damping inside the CC, meaning: the part that can be ssen by the driver. I only use a 1mm-thick felf belt around the driver to dampen some reflections, that's it. Either that solves the issue or we have a different understanding about dynamics.
Best regards,
Oliver
I was slightly irritated by your findings, as IME missing transients/dynamics is rather an overdamping issue than a CC-size one. I hope you didn't use 12mm damping inside the CC, meaning: the part that can be ssen by the driver. I only use a 1mm-thick felf belt around the driver to dampen some reflections, that's it. Either that solves the issue or we have a different understanding about dynamics.
Best regards,
Oliver
I thought it might be a good idea to try to clarify my idea of stuffing the CC; I hope Ropie won't mind me spoiling his diagram.
1) is a little strip of sheep wool, filtering out some frequencies and damping some unwanted interactions between the horn and the CC; it is the only thing that blocks the air stream directly.
2) is the felt belt, consisting of 1mm thick material which is glued to the walls in order to dampen reflections. Depending on the material you choose to seal the CC, it might also make sense to use it at the back of the CC, too. I use a layer of cork here, but cannot say whether this is the best solution (for me).
I can only say that I have no "honking sounds" und due to the moderate damping the driver can "breathe" with excellent HF extension.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
1) is a little strip of sheep wool, filtering out some frequencies and damping some unwanted interactions between the horn and the CC; it is the only thing that blocks the air stream directly.
2) is the felt belt, consisting of 1mm thick material which is glued to the walls in order to dampen reflections. Depending on the material you choose to seal the CC, it might also make sense to use it at the back of the CC, too. I use a layer of cork here, but cannot say whether this is the best solution (for me).
I can only say that I have no "honking sounds" und due to the moderate damping the driver can "breathe" with excellent HF extension.
In my B-horn FE108ES setup, I only use sheepwool (about 10" by 15" rolled loosely) in the CC and nothing in compartment 2, throat or mouth. The dynamics are scaring me and (to me that is) the frequency response is pretty even. Didn't measure it though. Placement in your room and distance from the wall seems the most important and by far easiest way to experiment and get good results.
Oliver - thanks
I don't thing we have a misunderstanding on dynamics, but from your clarification and sketch in the last 2 posts, it's clear that I overdamped the reduced compression chamber.
As it turns out, the speakers have found a happy new home, back in the original configuration. Had I enough time, I might have resolved my error.
But there's always next time, which I'm currently thinking FE168E Sigma - just looking for a design that works as well as the BHorn did with the 108.
I don't thing we have a misunderstanding on dynamics, but from your clarification and sketch in the last 2 posts, it's clear that I overdamped the reduced compression chamber.
As it turns out, the speakers have found a happy new home, back in the original configuration. Had I enough time, I might have resolved my error.
But there's always next time, which I'm currently thinking FE168E Sigma - just looking for a design that works as well as the BHorn did with the 108.
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