I did ...
... some new measurements this weekend, an the result was very interesting.
I noticed that the treble reproduction of my "Viecher" improved over the last weeks and wanted to see, if this could also be confirmed by measurement.
This is the measurement I did when the "Viecher" were new. It was made at the begin of January, 2 months ago.
This measurement I did yesterday:
Noc changes on the Viech have been done, and also the measurement parameters were the same. All changes in the frequency plot are due to break-in of the drivers. This improvement in the high frequency area is also acoustically noticeable.
This shows that the break-in of fullrange drivers seems to be more than a myth.
Nice greetings, Berndt
... some new measurements this weekend, an the result was very interesting.
I noticed that the treble reproduction of my "Viecher" improved over the last weeks and wanted to see, if this could also be confirmed by measurement.
This is the measurement I did when the "Viecher" were new. It was made at the begin of January, 2 months ago.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
This measurement I did yesterday:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Noc changes on the Viech have been done, and also the measurement parameters were the same. All changes in the frequency plot are due to break-in of the drivers. This improvement in the high frequency area is also acoustically noticeable.
This shows that the break-in of fullrange drivers seems to be more than a myth.
Nice greetings, Berndt
Dear Berndt,
Excellent results! Very nice and well thought and documented project, my congratulations. What I would like to ask concerning the measurements, what kind of equipment and setup did you used for taking these measurements? Meaning height and distanse of microphone, room location when measuring and also what equipment and software. I am in the search of measuring my horn speakers and am not yet sure how to accomplish this task.
My best regards
Excellent results! Very nice and well thought and documented project, my congratulations. What I would like to ask concerning the measurements, what kind of equipment and setup did you used for taking these measurements? Meaning height and distanse of microphone, room location when measuring and also what equipment and software. I am in the search of measuring my horn speakers and am not yet sure how to accomplish this task.
My best regards
Hi Panos,
I use a measurement system called DLSA, which comes from Germany. The fine thing is that it comes with micro (calibration file included), feature box and Software. All you need is to plug the box via parallel port in the computer and install the software. No hassle with soundcards, microphone calibration and other issues. Also the no-nonsense user-interface is nice to work with. The only disadvantage is the lack of harmonic distortion measurement ability.
http://www.dlsa.de/
The setup up the measurement was the following:
- Distance micro-driver was 1 meter.
- The speaker was taken away from the wall.
- The micro was aimed 0°/0° directly at the dustcap.
- Input was 1 Watt.
- Reference signal was taken after the Amp to exclude influence of the Amp.
I'm happy that you like the Viech construction, nice greetings to Greece (my favourite holiday destination BTW, do you know Finikounda/Messinia?), Berndt
I use a measurement system called DLSA, which comes from Germany. The fine thing is that it comes with micro (calibration file included), feature box and Software. All you need is to plug the box via parallel port in the computer and install the software. No hassle with soundcards, microphone calibration and other issues. Also the no-nonsense user-interface is nice to work with. The only disadvantage is the lack of harmonic distortion measurement ability.
http://www.dlsa.de/
The setup up the measurement was the following:
- Distance micro-driver was 1 meter.
- The speaker was taken away from the wall.
- The micro was aimed 0°/0° directly at the dustcap.
- Input was 1 Watt.
- Reference signal was taken after the Amp to exclude influence of the Amp.
I'm happy that you like the Viech construction, nice greetings to Greece (my favourite holiday destination BTW, do you know Finikounda/Messinia?), Berndt
Dear Berndt,
I really like finikounda! I've been there and in Coroni twice! Hehehe small world ! Anyway the site of the measuring system is not very informative isnt it? How much does it cost anyway? I just recently finished my horn http://audio.dynatech.gr/horny.htm which i designed from scratch and really enjoy but I would like to give it a try and measure it so I can play with stuffing to see if I can get any improvement.
Regards,
Panos
I really like finikounda! I've been there and in Coroni twice! Hehehe small world ! Anyway the site of the measuring system is not very informative isnt it? How much does it cost anyway? I just recently finished my horn http://audio.dynatech.gr/horny.htm which i designed from scratch and really enjoy but I would like to give it a try and measure it so I can play with stuffing to see if I can get any improvement.
Regards,
Panos
Yeah, beast, yeah ...
Hi Klaus,
I bought the drivers at the official Austrian Beyma distribution, but I am very sorry that I can not give you more data, because I lost the address. I looked after the sheet of paper where I noted it, but it is gone, sorry for that. I originally visited Musik-Produktiv http://www.musik-produktiv.at because they also distribute Beyma chassis and they gave me the address. Maybe give them a call and they will tell you, too.
@Panos: Very impressive horns! And also nice woodwork. Seems like they could blow you out of the windows, if you are not cautious
Nice greetings, Berndt
Hi Klaus,
I bought the drivers at the official Austrian Beyma distribution, but I am very sorry that I can not give you more data, because I lost the address. I looked after the sheet of paper where I noted it, but it is gone, sorry for that. I originally visited Musik-Produktiv http://www.musik-produktiv.at because they also distribute Beyma chassis and they gave me the address. Maybe give them a call and they will tell you, too.
@Panos: Very impressive horns! And also nice woodwork. Seems like they could blow you out of the windows, if you are not cautious
Nice greetings, Berndt
Burn in, or not?
Se on moro!
I took the effort of putting the images on top each others for better readability, and what do you see actually? Not only the 10kHz region but the whole freq response contains variations of several dBs.
Important would be to know if these changes are really due to driver 'burn in' during the time, or has the measurement conditions changed. The variations could come from slightly different room locations of the speaker and the microphone, or simple numerical noise of the FFT of the measurement software.
So how is it?
I'm interested because in one of these days a mailman should bring me a pair of 8AG/N too
- Elias
Se on moro!
I took the effort of putting the images on top each others for better readability, and what do you see actually? Not only the 10kHz region but the whole freq response contains variations of several dBs.
Important would be to know if these changes are really due to driver 'burn in' during the time, or has the measurement conditions changed. The variations could come from slightly different room locations of the speaker and the microphone, or simple numerical noise of the FFT of the measurement software.
So how is it?
I'm interested because in one of these days a mailman should bring me a pair of 8AG/N too
- Elias
Attachments
Hello,
I'm building a pair of these 'Beesten' - Flemish - (when I'm done posting this reply, I'm of to the 'glue-room' again ). The design and plans seem very nice (Well, I'm building them, so...), although I have found a minor error: the length of the E-panel with 25°/-25° cut is ca. one cm too short (it isn't flush with the front panel/ side panel edges).
For the construction I'm using MDF (which should be better than fibreboard), and it won't hurt to round the ends of panels B and C with a sander either, which makes the horn smoother. Maybe I'll also add a very small triangular piece of wood in the corner between C and D to smooth it out a little further. I'll also fill the voids left by the diagonal panels (E, H, I, J) with sand to kill the cabinet vibrations - when you do this, be sure to dry the sand (which is by definition quite moist) by 'baking' it in the oven.
I've had the Beyma drivers for a little while now, and playing them without a cabinet, at first they sounded terrible (very harsh highs). By now this has bettered substantially, and I believe a long burn-in period will indeed be characteristic for high-efficiency fullranges.
Thank for the great plans Berndt, and I'll keep you guys posted on the results!
I'm building a pair of these 'Beesten' - Flemish - (when I'm done posting this reply, I'm of to the 'glue-room' again
). The design and plans seem very nice (Well, I'm building them, so...), although I have found a minor error: the length of the E-panel with 25°/-25° cut is ca. one cm too short (it isn't flush with the front panel/ side panel edges).For the construction I'm using MDF (which should be better than fibreboard), and it won't hurt to round the ends of panels B and C with a sander either, which makes the horn smoother. Maybe I'll also add a very small triangular piece of wood in the corner between C and D to smooth it out a little further. I'll also fill the voids left by the diagonal panels (E, H, I, J) with sand to kill the cabinet vibrations - when you do this, be sure to dry the sand (which is by definition quite moist) by 'baking' it in the oven.
I've had the Beyma drivers for a little while now, and playing them without a cabinet, at first they sounded terrible (very harsh highs). By now this has bettered substantially, and I believe a long burn-in period will indeed be characteristic for high-efficiency fullranges.
Thank for the great plans Berndt, and I'll keep you guys posted on the results!
Hi Klimon,
I'm glad to hear that you like the Beesten. Sorry that I reply so late, but those days were a little stressy.
What happened in the meantime, is that a herd of Viechs is rolling over Germany and Austria, as far as I know there are about 40 pairs built by now, the 8AG/Ns were sometimes sold out at some German speaker stores.
The error you mentioned was also found by a german Viech-builder. There was a confusion (I made the same mistake) with the question, if the stated lenght of the board would be the overall lenght or the lenght of one side of the board. The difference is about 7mm. To make things easy, I "officially" changed the angle of the cut and left the lenght as it is. As this board is more like an "edge-filler", a few millimeters or degrees don't change the response anyway.
Here is the corrected plan:
If anybody is interested, how Viech matters are running in Germany, here is a Link to the monster thread in the german Hifi-Forum:
http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&back=1&sort=lpost&forum_id=104&thread=1913
Nice greetings, Berndt
I'm glad to hear that you like the Beesten. Sorry that I reply so late, but those days were a little stressy.
What happened in the meantime, is that a herd of Viechs is rolling over Germany and Austria, as far as I know there are about 40 pairs built by now, the 8AG/Ns were sometimes sold out at some German speaker stores.
The error you mentioned was also found by a german Viech-builder. There was a confusion (I made the same mistake) with the question, if the stated lenght of the board would be the overall lenght or the lenght of one side of the board. The difference is about 7mm. To make things easy, I "officially" changed the angle of the cut and left the lenght as it is. As this board is more like an "edge-filler", a few millimeters or degrees don't change the response anyway.
Here is the corrected plan:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
If anybody is interested, how Viech matters are running in Germany, here is a Link to the monster thread in the german Hifi-Forum:
http://www.hifi-forum.de/index.php?action=browseT&back=1&sort=lpost&forum_id=104&thread=1913
Nice greetings, Berndt
Hello,
a little feedback about my Viech's - I'll compare them with my other speakers, Iplacoustics s3tml, a small two-way TL, with redesigned crossover with big air-cored inductors and paper-in-oil capacitors...Here we go:
The Viech's (they're not fully played in yet) excell with their incredibly open sound, the music is with you in the room (large soundstage, very good imaging), it doesn't seem to be coming out of the speakers. I prefer them over my TL's for classical music and jazz, possibly with the exception of very complex passages. The sound is very natural, effortless, you find yourself listening to the music, not to the speakers.
Where they 'lack' (easy test; I find myself switching to the TL's): bass-extension in metal/rock/electronic music. You'll be more than satisfied when you listen to classical/jazz however. They also lack the speed/refinement of the TL's in complex/fast musical passages. All in all it's mostly the deep and tight bottomend of the TL's I'm missing (ofcourse only in music that contains very low hz information), but they're by definition bassmasters.
Furthermore I couldn't help noticing that these are BIG speakers. Mine are partially filled with sand, which I'ld recommend to prevent cabinet vibration, but is a real pain when you need to transport these heavyweights!!!
Most importantly I think the high sensitivity/low price is unbeatable (I searched quite a bit for cheap fullrange hi-eff. drivers, the Beyma is the one I found the most striking in this specs). Ideal for low power (few watts) se amps.
Enjoy! (or destroy)
a little feedback about my Viech's - I'll compare them with my other speakers, Iplacoustics s3tml, a small two-way TL, with redesigned crossover with big air-cored inductors and paper-in-oil capacitors...Here we go:
The Viech's (they're not fully played in yet) excell with their incredibly open sound, the music is with you in the room (large soundstage, very good imaging), it doesn't seem to be coming out of the speakers. I prefer them over my TL's for classical music and jazz, possibly with the exception of very complex passages. The sound is very natural, effortless, you find yourself listening to the music, not to the speakers.
Where they 'lack' (easy test; I find myself switching to the TL's): bass-extension in metal/rock/electronic music. You'll be more than satisfied when you listen to classical/jazz however. They also lack the speed/refinement of the TL's in complex/fast musical passages. All in all it's mostly the deep and tight bottomend of the TL's I'm missing (ofcourse only in music that contains very low hz information), but they're by definition bassmasters.
Furthermore I couldn't help noticing that these are BIG speakers. Mine are partially filled with sand, which I'ld recommend to prevent cabinet vibration, but is a real pain when you need to transport these heavyweights!!!
Most importantly I think the high sensitivity/low price is unbeatable (I searched quite a bit for cheap fullrange hi-eff. drivers, the Beyma is the one I found the most striking in this specs). Ideal for low power (few watts) se amps.
Enjoy! (or destroy)
A few weeks later
Hello,
I think I figured out what I don't like about the speakers: might it be that there is a bass-thump around a certain frequency, probably fs? Furthermore I have the impression the not-so-fast sound you get might be a result of the very high Q of the chassis, meaning poor dampening. Still, with certain music these are unbeatable e.g. violinsonatas, drumless music and what will we enjoy further?
Hello,
I think I figured out what I don't like about the speakers: might it be that there is a bass-thump around a certain frequency, probably fs? Furthermore I have the impression the not-so-fast sound you get might be a result of the very high Q of the chassis, meaning poor dampening. Still, with certain music these are unbeatable e.g. violinsonatas, drumless music and what will we enjoy further?
And now with a different amp!
Hi,
I used to drive my Viechs' with a el34pp in pentode mode, ca. 35watts.
Now I have connected them to a little el84 se triode mode amp; BIG IMPROVEMENT: the 'slow' sound has completely vanished; the speakers really shine with this amp (sounds logical, it has much less power BUT a much higher damping factor)
So the magic about low-powered set and high eff. fullranges is no myth!!!
Highly recommended!!!!!!!! (build the damn things, build a cheap low single-ended triode and enjoy mmmmmmmmmmmmm )
Hi,
I used to drive my Viechs' with a el34pp in pentode mode, ca. 35watts.
Now I have connected them to a little el84 se triode mode amp; BIG IMPROVEMENT: the 'slow' sound has completely vanished; the speakers really shine with this amp (sounds logical, it has much less power BUT a much higher damping factor)
So the magic about low-powered set and high eff. fullranges is no myth!!!
Highly recommended!!!!!!!! (build the damn things, build a cheap low single-ended triode and enjoy mmmmmmmmmmmmm
)
wrong again - lower damping factor means lower damping
but:
maybe that is better anyway, see NPs article at www.firstwatt.com
but:
maybe that is better anyway, see NPs article at www.firstwatt.com
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