I know someone that purchased this and immediately after playing it for the first time declared it to be "the best speaker I have ever heard". Well, you know how guys are when they get a new toy. A few days later he declared it was overly "bright" and has decided to install an adjustable L-pad. Haven't had an update since then. An adjustable L-pad may not be a bad idea though.
Timn8ter said:
well sir, my experience with whizzer-cone full rangers is that the breakup nodes that create the HF extension are rather irritating. in fact i prefer most full rangers about 30 degrees off axis and often incorporate this in design.
i'm kinda in the cockcroft/allison school of boundary effects...
tweeters always seem to need a buncha padding and a very high xover point...but i AM looking for 40k because after all...my amps will do 60-80k typically and vinyl can go quite high too...not to mention hi-res digital sources.
anyways, the speaker choices that madisound made did not look optimal so i subbed in the 166e and the 17h.
we shall see. at any rate i can always use a horn cabinet tuned for 50hz for SOMETHING hehe
Fostex horn
FWIW, I have completed a FE108EZ-based Buschhorn the other week (the paint job is still waiting...) and I also had to tackle a brighness problem. I heavily relied on the explanations/measurements given in Mr. Pass' article on 'Current Source Amplifiers and Sensitive/Full Range Drivers' and found his comments very valuable.
As my amps are far from "dark"-sounding (Naim 32.5/Gainclone) I had to use some sort of filter. I tried Rod Elliots BSC circuit first, with quite good results. It was cheap to build and the use of pots gave me a 'feeling' for the amount of dBs I actually had to dampen (sorry, I have no measurement system, so I had to rely on my ears).
Then I started experimenting with a notch filter, which turned out to be even more effective, because with this I could also manipulate the damping factor 'seen' by the speakers; I ended up with:
1 0.68mH/0.5R coil, 1 4.7R resistor, 1 1R resistor+0.47uF cap. I added the res+cap only a few days ago, to add some 'sugar coating'. The speakers seemed a tad dull with mediocre recordings before.
The speaker cable I use is quite resistive and long, so I guess it would be safe to add 0.3R to all the above values.
With this filter the bass is nicely controlled, but not 'mechanical' sounding, while the mids are really 'relaxed'. The not-so-dampened high treble again adds some sense of PRaT.
I'm not sure whether this is the 'right way' to treat a full range speaker, but I like it.
Next week or so a mate will pop in with his tube amp. I guess we can bypass the BSC then.
Best regards,
Oliver
P.S. Whatever people say about Fostex drivers taking weeks to run in... it's true
FWIW, I have completed a FE108EZ-based Buschhorn the other week (the paint job is still waiting...) and I also had to tackle a brighness problem. I heavily relied on the explanations/measurements given in Mr. Pass' article on 'Current Source Amplifiers and Sensitive/Full Range Drivers' and found his comments very valuable.
As my amps are far from "dark"-sounding (Naim 32.5/Gainclone) I had to use some sort of filter. I tried Rod Elliots BSC circuit first, with quite good results. It was cheap to build and the use of pots gave me a 'feeling' for the amount of dBs I actually had to dampen (sorry, I have no measurement system, so I had to rely on my ears).
Then I started experimenting with a notch filter, which turned out to be even more effective, because with this I could also manipulate the damping factor 'seen' by the speakers; I ended up with:
1 0.68mH/0.5R coil, 1 4.7R resistor, 1 1R resistor+0.47uF cap. I added the res+cap only a few days ago, to add some 'sugar coating'. The speakers seemed a tad dull with mediocre recordings before.
The speaker cable I use is quite resistive and long, so I guess it would be safe to add 0.3R to all the above values.
With this filter the bass is nicely controlled, but not 'mechanical' sounding, while the mids are really 'relaxed'. The not-so-dampened high treble again adds some sense of PRaT.
I'm not sure whether this is the 'right way' to treat a full range speaker, but I like it.
Next week or so a mate will pop in with his tube amp. I guess we can bypass the BSC then.
Best regards,
Oliver
P.S. Whatever people say about Fostex drivers taking weeks to run in... it's true
Re: Fostex horn
hi oliver...
thanks for the links and technical notes. quite interesting.
my plan is to get these drivers, mount them in the boxes, and send them some pink noise for a week or so, followed my some nice 10hz for a couple of days...
i have experimented with all manner of BSC circuits. at one point i spent weeks listening and tuning a variable circuit with some RS 1197's...madness.
in the end, i always felt something lacking. for some reason i just can't get with the sound of 'em...so in the end it seemed physical tweaks, placement, and bipoles for baffle step always sounded better...
but i am willing to try whatever. my mind is still open.
i have drooled over this fostex stuff for years but until fairly recently it wasn't accessible except from japan...i had a friend send me all the catalogs and nagaoka books, and i wondered...and meanwhile experimented with all the stateside offerings..
so, once again...back into the breach!
coredump said:
hi oliver...
thanks for the links and technical notes. quite interesting.
my plan is to get these drivers, mount them in the boxes, and send them some pink noise for a week or so, followed my some nice 10hz for a couple of days...
i have experimented with all manner of BSC circuits. at one point i spent weeks listening and tuning a variable circuit with some RS 1197's...madness.
in the end, i always felt something lacking. for some reason i just can't get with the sound of 'em...so in the end it seemed physical tweaks, placement, and bipoles for baffle step always sounded better...
but i am willing to try whatever. my mind is still open.
i have drooled over this fostex stuff for years but until fairly recently it wasn't accessible except from japan...i had a friend send me all the catalogs and nagaoka books, and i wondered...and meanwhile experimented with all the stateside offerings..
so, once again...back into the breach!
well, lads. got my bk-16/166e's.
yessir they landed the other day.
i immediately began construction. of course. the boxes fit together like a jigsaw puzzle, basically it's a process of gluing each piece of the horn into one side panel and temporarily fitting the other side panel so nothing shifts on ya, and in the end it all goes together.
material is 11-ply birch. i'll certainly listen and tweak before i glue on the final panel, and no doubt fill the voids with bags of sand.
moron this later.
yessir they landed the other day.
i immediately began construction. of course. the boxes fit together like a jigsaw puzzle, basically it's a process of gluing each piece of the horn into one side panel and temporarily fitting the other side panel so nothing shifts on ya, and in the end it all goes together.
material is 11-ply birch. i'll certainly listen and tweak before i glue on the final panel, and no doubt fill the voids with bags of sand.
moron this later.
The notch filter sounds promising .I have the fe206e,the fe126e and have a pair of ff165k coming in the mail, the recommended cab is the bk16 horn plan. The horn plan for the 126e looks interesting with both vent and horn in same enclosure. Any ways a remark about a bk-161 has been mentioned but the links to germany have not worked. Anyone have any info on the bk161 horn?
thanks
doggie
thanks
doggie
Dave,
my 'listening room' is quite small, with a wooden, suspended floor and quite a few room modes. My biggest concern was boominess, which is best triggered in this room via (reflex) ported speakers; but the horns produce excellent, tuneful bass here.
I guess I'm hooked.
Huge bass improvements were definitely achieved by implementing an impedance trap (0.56uF Solen+8R2 MOX parallel to the driver) and two pieces of a broomstick (glued into the horn mouth between the side walls). The bass wasn't any deeper afterwards, but much better defined. A lot of 'reverb' effects went, too.
Best regards,
Oliver
my 'listening room' is quite small, with a wooden, suspended floor and quite a few room modes. My biggest concern was boominess, which is best triggered in this room via (reflex) ported speakers; but the horns produce excellent, tuneful bass here.
I guess I'm hooked.
Huge bass improvements were definitely achieved by implementing an impedance trap (0.56uF Solen+8R2 MOX parallel to the driver) and two pieces of a broomstick (glued into the horn mouth between the side walls). The bass wasn't any deeper afterwards, but much better defined. A lot of 'reverb' effects went, too.
Best regards,
Oliver
well, lads, an update on this project.
commenced to build one box and dropped an fe166 in it untweaked. in the raw, baby.
broke in the speaker a bit with about 12 hrs of 10 hz to get it breathing. a little CPR.
i was pleasantly surprised at the smoothness, even in a totally untweaked state with a cheezy SS carver amping it. dropped a 50 ohm resistor between the terminals to smooth it a bit more.
cobbled in the FT17 tweeter with a mundorf cap i had laying around.
the tweet is a must. it just needs the added "air", but not much of it.
i tend to prefer horn loadings sitting flat on the floor from a distance. this box is no exception. makes better bass from afar.
i think this one is going to need minimal tweaking. this is the plan:
some acoustastuf in the chamber behind the driver to fool it into thinking is has a bigger chamber a bit,and reduce some HF reflection. physical damping of the very light basket with some damping sheet. damping sheet on the magnet. careful puttying of all the cabinet joints and smoothing of curves. damping sheet on the box in some places. very short spikes to couple it to the floor.
tweeter level and xover point adjusted.
more suitable amplification (triodes).
more listening.
that is all for now.
commenced to build one box and dropped an fe166 in it untweaked. in the raw, baby.
broke in the speaker a bit with about 12 hrs of 10 hz to get it breathing. a little CPR.
i was pleasantly surprised at the smoothness, even in a totally untweaked state with a cheezy SS carver amping it. dropped a 50 ohm resistor between the terminals to smooth it a bit more.
cobbled in the FT17 tweeter with a mundorf cap i had laying around.
the tweet is a must. it just needs the added "air", but not much of it.
i tend to prefer horn loadings sitting flat on the floor from a distance. this box is no exception. makes better bass from afar.
i think this one is going to need minimal tweaking. this is the plan:
some acoustastuf in the chamber behind the driver to fool it into thinking is has a bigger chamber a bit,and reduce some HF reflection. physical damping of the very light basket with some damping sheet. damping sheet on the magnet. careful puttying of all the cabinet joints and smoothing of curves. damping sheet on the box in some places. very short spikes to couple it to the floor.
tweeter level and xover point adjusted.
more suitable amplification (triodes).
more listening.
that is all for now.
Thanks for the update Blackie. I picked up a tip from our buddy Planet10 who likes to use "duct seal" to damp driver frames. It's cheap, easy to use and available anywhere that sells HVAC supplies. Just thought I'd share.
I'm interested in knowing why you opted for the FE166E over the FF165K.
I'm interested in knowing why you opted for the FE166E over the FF165K.
Timn8ter said:
the hf behavior of the ff165k, 3-10k range, gave me the willies. assuming the manufacturers response charts are a best case scenario (har har), that peak up there is more than i wanna deal with, especially coming from a metal dust cap...
something about the combo of horn loading, foam surround and metal dustcap sounds WRONG to me.
re: the damping...i did think about trying the ductseal. i've been using this stuff:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=268-030
this stuff makes a steel chassis that rings like a bell suddenly sound like it's made of lead. resonance GONE. no mess, it's self adhesive...
i probably will try the ductseal at some point to see if it works better than this stuff tho...
did you ever test it on a sheet of steel?
Timn8ter said:
That would take a lot of ductseal. Then I'd have to peel it all off again!
I did test it on this though.
alls i'm saying is a ringing steel sheet is a worst case scenario. a good test for broadband resonance damping...
the only way i would use ductseal is if it performs better than what i got, which is damn good i must say. purpose built for broadband resonance damping and not usuriously expensive
i'll get some and check it out next time i'm at home despot...
I used some of this stuff on one project as cabinet damping. I don't recall seeing the stuff you used when I was shopping around. I'm going to keep it in mind though.
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=268-020
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=268-020
mmm yeah that stuff is the low line stuff...more mass but less damping according to claims....no actual specs are given tho...
at any rate, mass is fine but apparently it's not enough to ensure good damping characteristics...which is why i am a hair suspicious of ductseal...
these damping materials are pretty high tech shizzle methinks...materials technology dontcha know
at any rate, mass is fine but apparently it's not enough to ensure good damping characteristics...which is why i am a hair suspicious of ductseal...
these damping materials are pretty high tech shizzle methinks...materials technology dontcha know
well sir, i just cut up several billion pieces of damping sheet and stuck 'em on my driver frame in several billion places.
i am totally underwhelmed by the results. i could tune me guitar to the pitch this fe166 basket makes when i tap it with a chopstick.
a lovely CLANK that increases in amplitude on the ears of the frame.
ima mortite the hell outta this one and mount it.
i'm trying ductseal on the next one. sheesh.
iuno, this damping sheet kicks **** on a panel but had barely any effect on this basket.
i am totally underwhelmed by the results. i could tune me guitar to the pitch this fe166 basket makes when i tap it with a chopstick.
a lovely CLANK that increases in amplitude on the ears of the frame.
ima mortite the hell outta this one and mount it.
i'm trying ductseal on the next one. sheesh.
iuno, this damping sheet kicks **** on a panel but had barely any effect on this basket.
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