Cyburgs-Needle for Tangband W3-871S - diyAudio
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Old 10th December 2004, 12:43 AM   #1
Cyburgs is offline Cyburgs  Austria
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Default Cyburgs-Needle for Tangband W3-871S

I hope that this could be of interest for you.

I constructed the Cyburgs-Needle originally for Visaton FRS8, which is a nice and cheap fullrange driver here in Europe. The Needle was quite a sucess here, I know of about 20 pairs built by DIYers, and there may be even more. However, I have been looking for an alternative driver to make a "High-End" version of the Needle. I tested several different 8cm drivers, and the Tangband W3-871S finally did it. Unlike the FRS8, you need a notch filter, the values you will find in the plan.
I think that the availability of the Tangband is better outside of Europe, so I hope you will have fun with this plan.

Nice greetings, Berndt

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Old 10th December 2004, 12:50 AM   #2
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Default Re: Cyburgs-Needle for Tangband W3-871S

Do you have a frequency response from a model or actual measurements?

Gio.
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Old 10th December 2004, 12:54 AM   #3
Cyburgs is offline Cyburgs  Austria
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Default Some threads ...

... in the Visaton forum, where you can see very nicely built Needles. Unfortunately I don't have pictures of the two pairs I built.
The threads are in German btw.

http://www.visaton.de/vb/showthread....ghlight=needle

http://www.visaton.de/vb/showthread....ghlight=needle

http://www.visaton.de/vb/showthread....ghlight=needle

http://www.visaton.de/vb/showthread....ghlight=needle

Not a thread about Needles, but on the second picture you see a Needle with Tangband:
http://www.visaton.de/vb/showthread....ghlight=needle
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Old 10th December 2004, 01:14 AM   #4
Cyburgs is offline Cyburgs  Austria
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Default @Gio:

Unfortunately not, I forgot to make screenshots, shame on me. And at this time I don't have ready built needles. I will provide the plots when I have built my next pair.
From sound point of view they are fairly flat, and will provide bass down to under 50 Hz in the room. So a sub is not necessary. The SPLmax is limited of course, for it is only a 8cm driver. The soundstage is very impressive as with most small fullrange drivers.

Nice greetings, Berndt
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Old 12th December 2004, 06:53 PM   #5
dvdwmth is offline dvdwmth  Canada
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Excellent.

Ive been wanting to find a design like this for some time for the w3871s. Really couldn't bring myself to tackle those mathcad worksheets.

You really get below 50hz with these things? Thats amazing.

Nice job on those bigger visaton cabinets by the way. The wood rings look really good.
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Old 13th December 2004, 12:25 AM   #6
Cyburgs is offline Cyburgs  Austria
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@dvdwmth:
Yeah, the woodrings look really nice, but I think they need quite experienced handicraft. Seems not to be easy.

The bass coming from Needles and Bricks is really amazing for such a small driver. But as I said before, the physics can not be cheated, the SPLmax is naturally limited.

Nice greetings, Berndt
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Old 13th December 2004, 01:06 AM   #7
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I don't understand how a driver with Fs = 110Hz can work well in a line that long. Unless I'm mistaken it appears to be 70" long.
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Old 13th December 2004, 12:19 PM   #8
Cyburgs is offline Cyburgs  Austria
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@timn8ter:
This trick works amazingly well in TQWPs with high-QTS drivers. You are right, the line is about 70" long, which gives a tuning of the line of about 50Hz.
Together with the room gain it gives a nice and solid bass reproduction.

Nice greetings, Berndt
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Old 16th December 2004, 03:57 AM   #9
zobsky is offline zobsky  India
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sounds interesting, ... what about using 2 drivers per cabinet to overcome SPL limitations ??
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Old 16th December 2004, 04:39 AM   #10
zobsky is offline zobsky  India
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i guess that would involve doubling the cross sectional area of the line
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Old 16th December 2004, 05:24 AM   #11
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Been waiting for something like this for a long time. Think I might actually splurge and grab a set of the 871s and build some computer speakers!

Thanks for all your work!
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Old 16th December 2004, 01:42 PM   #12
joensd is offline joensd  Germany
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Quote:
sounds interesting, ... what about using 2 drivers per cabinet to overcome SPL limitations ??
I build a lil QWT with the W3-871S which worked out very nice.
(thanks to Rudolf and MJK)
I planned in a sub for my PC-setup but donīt use it now.
But yes it is SPL-limited. Especially with music that contains "electronic" bass the TQWT turns into a hair-dryer.

You could easily take that design, double the CSA and put a second TB on the back (which is what I plan for the near future).

If youīre interested in more info or pics drop me a mail.

See post4 for specs here.
Chris has built this especial one; see post 44 for a pic and measurements.
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Old 16th December 2004, 02:00 PM   #13
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Hi joensd. I bet you're proud to see your design at the Atlanta event! The FR graphs were very interesting to see also. It would be interesting to see FR graphs for the 70" long TQWT being discussed here.
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Old 16th December 2004, 02:14 PM   #14
joensd is offline joensd  Germany
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Quote:
I bet you're proud to see your design at the Atlanta event!
Rudolf designed it; I just changed a few measures to my taste.
But yes itīs nice to see designs go round the ball.
DIY+internet is a cool thing to have.

Quote:
It would be interesting to see FR graphs for the 70" long TQWT being discussed here.
SPL-capability in the QWT I built is bad enough and I wonder too what such a long line really does.
Just like this one : http://www.visaton-bausaetze.de/hifi/lancetta.htm
Yes, the W3-871S and other Tangbands have now arrived at german DIY magazines too.
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Old 21st December 2004, 01:01 AM   #15
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Default maybe...

maybe something like this would work to fix the spl issues?

i'd be VERY interested to see what could be accomplished with an enclosure with than and some 3" tb drivers...

sheesh...i've been looking into building some nice fostex full rangers but those might have to wait...
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Old 21st December 2004, 09:42 AM   #16
Cyburgs is offline Cyburgs  Austria
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I did already something like "this" :-)
It is called Janosch and consists of two Visaton FRS8 in push-push configuration. The rear driver is loaded with a TQWP in a similar contour as the Needle, the front driver works on a closed volume of about 4 liters.
If you keep in mind that they have to stand at least one meters from the walls, you may guess what the most problematic parameter of the Janosch is :-D (tip: HAF!).
Although I prefer directive speakers, the Janosch's soundstage it impressive and has a nice depth. I don't know if this holographic impression comes really from the CD or is produced by the speakers ;-), but it is much fun.

Click the image to open in full size.

This was a second try I concepted together with a friend. Due to the tilted rear speaker the minimal wall distance is now half a meter. The gimmick of this speaker is that you can exchange the terminal and the rear driver and convert ist to a symmetrical push-push speaker.
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 2nd January 2005, 03:19 PM   #17
Cyburgs is offline Cyburgs  Austria
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Default @gio:

Regarding measurement of the needle:
I made a F-response measurement of the Cyburgs-Brick with the Tangband W3-871S and the notch filter. As the Brick has basically the same contour as the Needle, the response curve is compareable.

The measurement was made in the middle of the listening room, so there is some room influence in the bass region.

Click the image to open in full size.

Nice greetings, Berndt
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Old 2nd January 2005, 10:26 PM   #18
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Well, you could not ask for a better representation of the "comb" filter effect on the lower freqs...

I am thinking of doing this with a spare set of Fostex FE 103's I have lying around the house...
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Old 23rd January 2005, 07:04 PM   #19
Cyburgs is offline Cyburgs  Austria
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Default Ooops ...

... found a small typo in the notch filter values. Here is the new version of the plan:

Click the image to open in full size.

I tried to edit the plan, but I am not allowed to. Guess the thread is too old now.

Nice greetings, Berndt
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Old 25th January 2005, 11:39 PM   #20
ebijma is offline ebijma  Netherlands
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Default Re: Ooops ...

Very interesting design. (thanks Cyburgs)
Think i build these.
Now where can i find the tangband drivers in Europe?
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Old 30th January 2005, 02:18 AM   #21
Cyburgs is offline Cyburgs  Austria
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@ebijma:
I know some sources for Tangband in Germany,
e. g. www.spectrumaudio.de
but I dont know how the situation is in The Netherlands. I think that the chances are not bad, as these babies are quite popular these days.

Have fun, nice greetings, Berndt
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Old 30th January 2005, 11:25 AM   #22
pristex is offline pristex  Finland
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I ordered my TB's from SpectrumAudio. After they received my money transfer, the shipment arrived to Finland in 6 working days, so I bet the delivery to Netherlands would be even faster.

-P
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Old 30th January 2005, 02:57 PM   #23
ebijma is offline ebijma  Netherlands
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Default tb's

Thanks.
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Old 16th April 2005, 08:18 PM   #24
Nasse is offline Nasse  Finland
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http://www.hzh-audio.com

No experience but found link when lurking around
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Old 28th April 2005, 12:57 PM   #25
Nuuk is offline Nuuk  United Kingdom
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There is nothing quite like the thrill of getting something for nothing!

Somebody gave me a pair of Pioneer 4 inch drivers and I had them lying around for a few months before connecting them to an amp and hearing that they sounded quite reasonable.

I had seen the Cyburgs design and adapted that by increasing the cabinet width by 25mm. I managed to find somebody throwing out some chipboard and spent a couple of days in my workshop. I already had glue, fibreglass insulating wool and wire so I didn't spend a penny on the whole project.

Last evening I connected them up and was an hour late for supper! They are not the best speakers that I have ever heard and my other speakers are better in several areas. But what they do, they do very well. Great imaging, a huge soundstage (deep and wide) and the speakers themselves are acoustically invisible.

I played some acoustic music first which was very good. With solo vocals, I get close to that 'being there' sensation. But I was surprised at how well they handle rock and orchestral music as well.

For the cost, effort, and time, these speakers have me smiling from ear to ear so a BIG thank you to Cyburgs for sharing his design.

PS - I was going to sling a quick coat of black paint over them but I think that they deserve something a bit better!

Click the image to open in full size.
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