Cyburgs-Needle for Tangband W3-871S

[Cyburgs]

I hope that this could be of interest for you.

I constructed the Cyburgs-Needle originally for Visaton FRS8, which is a nice and cheap fullrange driver here in Europe. The Needle was quite a sucess here, I know of about 20 pairs built by DIYers, and there may be even more. However, I have been looking for an alternative driver to make a "High-End" version of the Needle. I tested several different 8cm drivers, and the Tangband W3-871S finally did it. Unlike the FRS8, you need a notch filter, the values you will find in the plan.
I think that the availability of the Tangband is better outside of Europe, so I hope you will have fun with this plan.

Nice greetings, Berndt

[gmilitano]

Do you have a frequency response from a model or actual measurements?

Gio.

[Cyburgs]

... in the Visaton forum, where you can see very nicely built Needles. Unfortunately I don't have pictures of the two pairs I built.
The threads are in German btw.

http://www.visaton.de/vb/showthread....ghlight=needle

http://www.visaton.de/vb/showthread....ghlight=needle

http://www.visaton.de/vb/showthread....ghlight=needle

http://www.visaton.de/vb/showthread....ghlight=needle

Not a thread about Needles, but on the second picture you see a Needle with Tangband:
http://www.visaton.de/vb/showthread....ghlight=needle

[Cyburgs]

Unfortunately not, I forgot to make screenshots, shame on me. And at this time I don't have ready built needles. I will provide the plots when I have built my next pair.
From sound point of view they are fairly flat, and will provide bass down to under 50 Hz in the room. So a sub is not necessary. The SPLmax is limited of course, for it is only a 8cm driver. The soundstage is very impressive as with most small fullrange drivers.

Nice greetings, Berndt

[dvdwmth]

Excellent.

Ive been wanting to find a design like this for some time for the w3871s. Really couldn't bring myself to tackle those mathcad worksheets.

You really get below 50hz with these things? Thats amazing.

Nice job on those bigger visaton cabinets by the way. The wood rings look really good.

[Cyburgs]

@dvdwmth:
Yeah, the woodrings look really nice, but I think they need quite experienced handicraft. Seems not to be easy.

The bass coming from Needles and Bricks is really amazing for such a small driver. But as I said before, the physics can not be cheated, the SPLmax is naturally limited.

Nice greetings, Berndt

[Timn8ter]

I don't understand how a driver with Fs = 110Hz can work well in a line that long. Unless I'm mistaken it appears to be 70" long.

[Cyburgs]

@timn8ter:
This trick works amazingly well in TQWPs with high-QTS drivers. You are right, the line is about 70" long, which gives a tuning of the line of about 50Hz.
Together with the room gain it gives a nice and solid bass reproduction.

Nice greetings, Berndt

[zobsky]

sounds interesting, ... what about using 2 drivers per cabinet to overcome SPL limitations ??

[zobsky]

i guess that would involve doubling the cross sectional area of the line

[mazeroth]

Been waiting for something like this for a long time. Think I might actually splurge and grab a set of the 871s and build some computer speakers!

Thanks for all your work!

[joensd]

sounds interesting, ... what about using 2 drivers per cabinet to overcome SPL limitations ??

I build a lil QWT with the W3-871S which worked out very nice.
(thanks to Rudolf and MJK)
I planned in a sub for my PC-setup but don´t use it now.
But yes it is SPL-limited. Especially with music that contains "electronic" bass the TQWT turns into a hair-dryer.

You could easily take that design, double the CSA and put a second TB on the back (which is what I plan for the near future).

If you´re interested in more info or pics drop me a mail.

See post4 for specs here.
Chris has built this especial one; see post 44 for a pic and measurements.

[Timn8ter]

Hi joensd. I bet you're proud to see your design at the Atlanta event! The FR graphs were very interesting to see also. It would be interesting to see FR graphs for the 70" long TQWT being discussed here.

[joensd]

I bet you're proud to see your design at the Atlanta event!

Rudolf designed it; I just changed a few measures to my taste.
But yes it´s nice to see designs go round the ball.
DIY+internet is a cool thing to have.

It would be interesting to see FR graphs for the 70" long TQWT being discussed here.

SPL-capability in the QWT I built is bad enough and I wonder too what such a long line really does.
Just like this one : http://www.visaton-bausaetze.de/hifi/lancetta.htm
Yes, the W3-871S and other Tangbands have now arrived at german DIY magazines too.

[nerd of nerds]

maybe something like this would work to fix the spl issues?

i'd be VERY interested to see what could be accomplished with an enclosure with than and some 3" tb drivers...

sheesh...i've been looking into building some nice fostex full rangers but those might have to wait...

[Cyburgs]

I did already something like "this" :-)
It is called Janosch and consists of two Visaton FRS8 in push-push configuration. The rear driver is loaded with a TQWP in a similar contour as the Needle, the front driver works on a closed volume of about 4 liters.
If you keep in mind that they have to stand at least one meters from the walls, you may guess what the most problematic parameter of the Janosch is :-D (tip: HAF!).
Although I prefer directive speakers, the Janosch's soundstage it impressive and has a nice depth. I don't know if this holographic impression comes really from the CD or is produced by the speakers ;-), but it is much fun.



This was a second try I concepted together with a friend. Due to the tilted rear speaker the minimal wall distance is now half a meter. The gimmick of this speaker is that you can exchange the terminal and the rear driver and convert ist to a symmetrical push-push speaker.

[Cyburgs]

Regarding measurement of the needle:
I made a F-response measurement of the Cyburgs-Brick with the Tangband W3-871S and the notch filter. As the Brick has basically the same contour as the Needle, the response curve is compareable.

The measurement was made in the middle of the listening room, so there is some room influence in the bass region.



Nice greetings, Berndt

[GrahamnDodder]

Well, you could not ask for a better representation of the "comb" filter effect on the lower freqs...

I am thinking of doing this with a spare set of Fostex FE 103's I have lying around the house...

[Cyburgs]

... found a small typo in the notch filter values. Here is the new version of the plan:



I tried to edit the plan, but I am not allowed to. Guess the thread is too old now.

Nice greetings, Berndt

[ebijma]

Originally posted by Cyburgs
... found a small typo in the notch filter values. Here is the new version of the plan:



I tried to edit the plan, but I am not allowed to. Guess the thread is too old now.

Nice greetings, Berndt

Very interesting design. (thanks Cyburgs)
Think i build these.
Now where can i find the tangband drivers in Europe?

[Cyburgs]

@ebijma:
I know some sources for Tangband in Germany,
e. g. www.spectrumaudio.de
but I dont know how the situation is in The Netherlands. I think that the chances are not bad, as these babies are quite popular these days.

Have fun, nice greetings, Berndt

[pristex]

I ordered my TB's from SpectrumAudio. After they received my money transfer, the shipment arrived to Finland in 6 working days, so I bet the delivery to Netherlands would be even faster.

-P

[ebijma]

Thanks.

[Nasse]

http://www.hzh-audio.com

No experience but found link when lurking around

[Nuuk]

There is nothing quite like the thrill of getting something for nothing!

Somebody gave me a pair of Pioneer 4 inch drivers and I had them lying around for a few months before connecting them to an amp and hearing that they sounded quite reasonable.

I had seen the Cyburgs design and adapted that by increasing the cabinet width by 25mm. I managed to find somebody throwing out some chipboard and spent a couple of days in my workshop. I already had glue, fibreglass insulating wool and wire so I didn't spend a penny on the whole project.

Last evening I connected them up and was an hour late for supper! They are not the best speakers that I have ever heard and my other speakers are better in several areas. But what they do, they do very well. Great imaging, a huge soundstage (deep and wide) and the speakers themselves are acoustically invisible.

I played some acoustic music first which was very good. With solo vocals, I get close to that 'being there' sensation. But I was surprised at how well they handle rock and orchestral music as well.

For the cost, effort, and time, these speakers have me smiling from ear to ear so a BIG thank you to Cyburgs for sharing his design.

PS - I was going to sling a quick coat of black paint over them but I think that they deserve something a bit better!