@BSDprophet: Mitering or rounding the inside of the speaker cutout is very important, when you use the Tangband W3-871S because of it's huge magnet. When you use the Visaton FRS8 it is not critical.
@Croat47: Without having tried I think that the position of the port is not critical, because the cutoff frequency is low enough. But keep in mind that you need some space between the wall and the speaker, when you place the port on the backside.
@mazeroth: I have not tried the Hi-Vi driver by now so I can not give any recommendation. But if you have the driver anyway, just build a test-needle from cheap chipboard and give them a try. Much experience gain for a few bucks, hehe.
Nice greetings, Berndt
@Croat47: Without having tried I think that the position of the port is not critical, because the cutoff frequency is low enough. But keep in mind that you need some space between the wall and the speaker, when you place the port on the backside.
@mazeroth: I have not tried the Hi-Vi driver by now so I can not give any recommendation. But if you have the driver anyway, just build a test-needle from cheap chipboard and give them a try. Much experience gain for a few bucks, hehe.
Nice greetings, Berndt
Hello all,
I'm planning on building a pair of Needles -- I'm very curious about their sound. They can also be made to look very pretty, as we've seen earlier in the thread. Here's some things I'm unsure about:
1)
If I were to put the notch filter in front of the amplifier, would I keep the same resistor, cap and inductor values?
I assume that parts specced for lower wattage and perhaps voltage could be used.
I'm thinking something similar to biamplification here (but as there's only one driver per speaker I guess it's uniamplification
) What I mean is a passive notch filter on the line-level signal -- I won't be putting the filter in an opamp feedback loop.
My idea is actually to build the vanilla notch filter into the speaker, but with a switch to bypass it, and then experiment with an RLC line-level notch filter, and some form of digital "crossover" in the computer as well. (BruteFIR or something similar.) Just to get extra education out of the project and a feel for the difference between these three methods.
2)
Would plywood be OK? Would any thicknesses or measurements need to change?
I'll probably use MDF, but I seem to have numerous friends with carpenters for dads. They might have scrap plywood, so that's why I'm asking.
OK that's it. Thanks!
I'm planning on building a pair of Needles -- I'm very curious about their sound. They can also be made to look very pretty, as we've seen earlier in the thread. Here's some things I'm unsure about:
1)
If I were to put the notch filter in front of the amplifier, would I keep the same resistor, cap and inductor values?
I assume that parts specced for lower wattage and perhaps voltage could be used.
I'm thinking something similar to biamplification here (but as there's only one driver per speaker I guess it's uniamplification
) What I mean is a passive notch filter on the line-level signal -- I won't be putting the filter in an opamp feedback loop.My idea is actually to build the vanilla notch filter into the speaker, but with a switch to bypass it, and then experiment with an RLC line-level notch filter, and some form of digital "crossover" in the computer as well. (BruteFIR or something similar.) Just to get extra education out of the project and a feel for the difference between these three methods.
2)
Would plywood be OK? Would any thicknesses or measurements need to change?
I'll probably use MDF, but I seem to have numerous friends with carpenters for dads. They might have scrap plywood, so that's why I'm asking.
OK that's it. Thanks!
kristleifur said:1)
If I were to put the notch filter in front of the amplifier, would I keep the same resistor, cap and inductor values?
I assume that parts specced for lower wattage and perhaps voltage could be used.
I'm thinking something similar to biamplification here (but as there's only one driver per speaker I guess it's uniamplification
If you can get it right this should work better.
Void free is recommended. I won't build any serious speaker out of MDF any more... with plywood you can most often get away with thinner material, but here i'd just use the same thickness to save having to figure out the changes needed.
dave
I'm working at a brewery and when we get PET-bottles delivered they are piled on top of each other with chipboard in between for stability. Every now and then the supplier run out och chipboard and use whats handy instead. To keep this short they used 12mm thick plywood some weeks ago (5 layers) and those are now made into a pair of needles. In other words, I used scrapped 12mm plywood for my Needles, also at the top and base.
I drive them with a LM3875 gainclone with my computer as a source and this works fine. Since you probably, as me, will get the scap plywood for free just try this at first and if you like it then apply some nice finish. If not, put it in the scrap pile again.
Total cost: approx 60€
Attachments
lohk said:
My rudimentary research into the matter indicates that I will indeed need an active filter. It is seemingly possible to construct a line-level passive notch filter, but it would require an inductor several Henries in size.
Thanks for the input!
lohk, if you have reading suggestions for active filter construction, or on filters in general, I'd love to have them. Someday, I'll also need to figure out the frequency domain behavior of the default notch filter in the Tangband Needle, so if anyone has any documentation leads on that, I'd appreciate them.
On a sidenote, I'm considering the Cyburgs Stick now as well as the needle. I'll be using a ~15W "class-T" Amp6, and the living room where I am now is pretty big. Maybe this combination is disadvantageous for the not-too-great efficiency of the Needles, paired with its preference for small rooms for bass gain.
Has anyone tried the Needles with TA2020 Tripath amps?
I use my needles with a T-amp. And they sound wonderful, no doubt. But the overall loudness is low, the handling of complex heavily compressed music (most rock or pop music nowadays) is not very good - it sound very different to "normal" settings. I have tried it with and without the passive notch filter, the overall solution to a general use is still not fully acceptable for me, I could not "live" with a set like these as main speakers alone. The bass is not the problem, it is not dynamic enough overall. I also think - more a thought than scientific proof - that the combination here between loudspeaker and amplifiers is much more difficult and the different combinations sound often very diffferent indeed. Sometimes oddly different...
Your idea leads to a probably more practical solution. An active equalizer should be much better able to handle those discrepancies, baffle step and loadspeaker idiosyncracies included.
I do not have a practical solution myself, maybe to "rebuild" the notch filter as an active equalizer is not the best idea to start with. Maybe it would be better to start with a fully adjustable (professional) equalizer to (empirically) find out the right frequncy balance. But all that will definitely be more expensive than the passive filter.
Did anybody try a Firstamp clone on the Needles?
Your idea leads to a probably more practical solution. An active equalizer should be much better able to handle those discrepancies, baffle step and loadspeaker idiosyncracies included.
I do not have a practical solution myself, maybe to "rebuild" the notch filter as an active equalizer is not the best idea to start with. Maybe it would be better to start with a fully adjustable (professional) equalizer to (empirically) find out the right frequncy balance. But all that will definitely be more expensive than the passive filter.
Did anybody try a Firstamp clone on the Needles?
lohk said:
I was thinking something along those lines, too. This should be fun to research and build
What I find interesting is that the notch filter is basically a crossover, without splitting the sound up into more than 1 x L+R channels. Good for learning, as you can play around digitally with a single stereo out and an amplifier.So ... what about a computer-based EQ? There are some pretty good freeware parametric EQs out there IIRC. Sof them are probably as good or better -- and more adjustable -- than any professional EQ box I could get my hands on.
Digital EQ for the speakers is something I could probably live with in my my audio playback chain, in the computer. In case I want to add a sub later, the speaker-EQ would probably need rebuilding, as you say, as an active circuit. Should be fun.
A nice solution seems to have separate + binding posts on the speaker with / without the notch filter. I saw that mentioned in one of the German threads about the needles, I think. Or was it here?
I also wonder what effect adding a subwoofer would have on the Needles' ability to handle complex, compressed music. This is an issue I've seen mentioned several places. I seem to recall that a sub might help, but I'm not sure. There's so much information to take in, and it tends to "sit" better when I've actually built something.
lohk said:
Firstamp? Haven't heard of those, and Google didn't come up with anything relevant at first glance. Got a link?
I'm still torn between the Sticks and the Needles
I think that the Sticks would suit me better, but the Needles are so good looking. There are also decorative ideas I want to pursue, like a slightly slanted wood-look (maybe 10degrees off the vertical axis). I'm also envisioning covering the Needles in ironic-style '70s wallpaper. Something light-blue and white should look pretty sexy. I'll probably end up building both Sticks and Needles and foisting one pair off as a gift Just for your information.
I have never heard a Needle, but has done som alanysis, as many people are not satisfied with the Needles. This ended up with my own contruction, which I am very pleased with.
I named it TABAQ, Tang Band Quarter Wave.
Tang Band has my article about for rewiev for the time being, and I hope to me more informative soon.
I used Martin´s software to design the cabinet and the notch filter.
http://www.coolcat.dk/bjoern/needle_analysis.pdf
Hi from Bjorn Johannesen
I have never heard a Needle, but has done som alanysis, as many people are not satisfied with the Needles. This ended up with my own contruction, which I am very pleased with.
I named it TABAQ, Tang Band Quarter Wave.
Tang Band has my article about for rewiev for the time being, and I hope to me more informative soon.
I used Martin´s software to design the cabinet and the notch filter.
http://www.coolcat.dk/bjoern/needle_analysis.pdf
Hi from Bjorn Johannesen
I meant "Firstwatt" - sorry for that... Nelson Pass' Amps with the ability to drive fullrange speakers better, actually designed with horns in mind, but why should they not work with TQWL speakers like the Needle.
Foobar (my favorite software player) has a quite nice equalizer. It seems to be a very good idea for me to try the Needles with just the necessary little bit of EQ to get rid of the notch filter. Better would be one of the fully tuneable (parametric) professional VST plugins - but there is no pure player software - as far as I know - which is capable of handling VST plugins.
The problem of the Needle is surely not the bass - there seems to be plenty for a tiny speaker like this. With a subwoofer it will be better with complex loud sounds, I am sure, but then I do not need to make a Needle at all, a small open baffle should be sufficient.
Bjorn, without description your graphs say nothing clear to me: Can you give us a detailled explanation please? Why should you wait for Tangband, you can also discuss it here.
Foobar (my favorite software player) has a quite nice equalizer. It seems to be a very good idea for me to try the Needles with just the necessary little bit of EQ to get rid of the notch filter. Better would be one of the fully tuneable (parametric) professional VST plugins - but there is no pure player software - as far as I know - which is capable of handling VST plugins.
The problem of the Needle is surely not the bass - there seems to be plenty for a tiny speaker like this. With a subwoofer it will be better with complex loud sounds, I am sure, but then I do not need to make a Needle at all, a small open baffle should be sufficient.
Bjorn, without description your graphs say nothing clear to me: Can you give us a detailled explanation please? Why should you wait for Tangband, you can also discuss it here.
Sorry about my lack of information, actually I have offered the article to Tang Band. I will publish the article shortly, if Tang Band is not interested.
I have made a notch filter by 1.0 mH in parallel with 3.9 Ohm. This is for my enclosure, and might not fit the Needle. Placing the speaker at the wall, this is the right filter to use. For a free standing placement, 6db attenation will be needed. I do not recall the values, as I am at work right now.
Hope you will be a little patien with me
Hi from Bjorn
Wonderful Copenhagen
I have made a notch filter by 1.0 mH in parallel with 3.9 Ohm. This is for my enclosure, and might not fit the Needle. Placing the speaker at the wall, this is the right filter to use. For a free standing placement, 6db attenation will be needed. I do not recall the values, as I am at work right now.
Hope you will be a little patien with me
Hi from Bjorn
Wonderful Copenhagen
Hello!
I have some questions concerned with this project:
1) Let's suppose that I have only with one thickness veneer 20mm, would i get a good results when all the walls of this speaker would be with this thickness? Or should these initial numbers followed strictly?
2)I can get Visaton FR13 drivers cheaper than FRS 8, and FR13 has better lower range, but it is 13cm driver not 8 (like FRS 8). So all the calculations of the box should be changed? Or is there any point to change the driver, because as I have read, with this design I can get 50Hz out of FRS 8?
napos
I have some questions concerned with this project:
1) Let's suppose that I have only with one thickness veneer 20mm, would i get a good results when all the walls of this speaker would be with this thickness? Or should these initial numbers followed strictly?
2)I can get Visaton FR13 drivers cheaper than FRS 8, and FR13 has better lower range, but it is 13cm driver not 8 (like FRS 8). So all the calculations of the box should be changed? Or is there any point to change the driver, because as I have read, with this design I can get 50Hz out of FRS 8?
napos
I personally prefer the Tangband over the Visaton FRS8 to a large margin. It sounds quite ok in my Needle, but no better than that. The Tangband W3-871 is another league.
I also still prefer them without extra EQ and without the notch filter. My probably already suffered professional hearing ability do not tell me that they are shouty or bright, nor are they muffled. I could probably live with a pair for a while as sole speakers, if I would only listen to classical chamber kind of music. There are limitations.
I recently moved them into my main listening room - which I have not done before - and setted them quite of the wall. Bass is not heavy but there, and the uppermost treble is still not comparable to good tweeters, but the coherence of the musical flow and the soundstage projection of that little beast is really nice. They have to be connected to the right ancillaries and put in the best room and place - as always to show their best abilities. I use them at the moment with a PD NonOS DAC and "Orginal"PD Premiums, with a passive pre (a pot...) and nice DIY cables for interconnects and L'Espace HaPhranKim loudspeaker cables (the only real esoterica here...).
I actually wanted to sell them - one cannot house so many speakers! - but I shall keep them now. The speaker with by far the best price-value ratio yet.
Thanks again for that application, Cyburgs!
I also still prefer them without extra EQ and without the notch filter. My probably already suffered professional hearing ability do not tell me that they are shouty or bright, nor are they muffled. I could probably live with a pair for a while as sole speakers, if I would only listen to classical chamber kind of music. There are limitations.
I recently moved them into my main listening room - which I have not done before - and setted them quite of the wall. Bass is not heavy but there, and the uppermost treble is still not comparable to good tweeters, but the coherence of the musical flow and the soundstage projection of that little beast is really nice. They have to be connected to the right ancillaries and put in the best room and place - as always to show their best abilities. I use them at the moment with a PD NonOS DAC and "Orginal"PD Premiums, with a passive pre (a pot...) and nice DIY cables for interconnects and L'Espace HaPhranKim loudspeaker cables (the only real esoterica here...).
I actually wanted to sell them - one cannot house so many speakers! - but I shall keep them now. The speaker with by far the best price-value ratio yet.
Thanks again for that application, Cyburgs!