Full-range line array? - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Full Range

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 16th September 2004, 03:22 AM   #1
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Default Full-range line array?

I posted this over at fullrangedriver.com also, but wanted to make sure I got everyone's opinion

I recently purchased 64 of the $0.69 cent Pioneer 4" speakers from Parts Express and 128 of the $0.48 Onkyo 3/4" tweeters to make a line array. After TONS of reading I guess I got into more than I can handle. The crossover designing in killing me and I got frustrated easily. I then ran across this project of a full-range speaker and got excited:

http://home.new.rr.com/zaph/audio/audio-speaker11.html

Sounds like the perfect driver for me! What I'm looking to do is to make a line array with 8+ of these drivers per side. I can do sealed or vented, whichever you guys feel will sound better. I'm leaning towards a sealed box because they're easier to work with, I think. Now, here's my second idea. Tell me if I'm stupid or not

I'm thinking of making a "sub box" on the bottom of the speakers in their own enclosed box, totally separate from the full-range section. Possibly put something like 2-4 6.5" drivers, or 2 8" drivers, or a single 10"..who knows..I would like this sub box to take care of the low end the full range Tang can not. Probably go up to where the Tang stops at 125-150hz. I do not want this sub box to take care of the extremely low stuff. I have an SVS sub that can hit 20hz no problem. I can have the SVS take care of 20hz to 50, 60, or 70, not sure yet, and have the sub box take care of the rest up til 125-150. I was thinking of powering BOTH tower subs off a subwoofer plate amp, like the ones they sell at Parts Express. I can put the plate amp into a custom box that sits on my A/V rack. Run the speaker wires from the plate amp to each sub box and use the crossover on the plate amp to control where I cut the bass off at. Most of the plate amps from Parts Express let you adjust from 40hz-160hz so I can use a Radio Shack SPL meter to help set it.

Is this a stupid idea or do you think this will work? Like I said I'm new to DiY speakers and thought this would be a cool project to do. Are there better full-range drivers in the same price range as these, maybe even a 4" so the need of a powered mini sub can be eliminated? ANY information is greatly appreciated. I've read this forum and you guys know some amazing stuff! I'm all ears, even to extreme amounts of criticism!

Thanks!
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2004, 04:20 AM   #2
Jye is offline Jye  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Jye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Brisbane, Australia
I think you need to talk to Timn8ter

http://alegriaaudio.com/aural_imaging_isa.htm
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2004, 04:22 AM   #3
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Columbus, OH
LoL! I just e-mailed him 10 seconds ago! Someone over at fullrangedriver.com replied exactly like you.

http://fullrangedriver.com/tiki-view...ind=&forumId=1
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2004, 05:10 AM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Racine, Wisconsin
More than you can handle? The toughest part is drilling the holes. Forget the crossover at this point as that can easily (although not cheaply) be changed later. As for technical difficulty, there isn't any. It's mostly tedium stripping wires and soldering connections.

If it's your first project, do it in steps. The basic project is a line array, so build a couple of speakers with an array of eight or sixteen of the 4" Pioneers and dozen of those Onkyo's. Get them as close as possible (center/center distance) in just a simple open baffle. KISS principle. Wire 'em up series & parallel so you get between 4 and 8 ohms nominal and have a listen to just the Pioneers. Nothin' else. Just the 4" speakers. They cover 200 to 15K. Remarkably, that's about what your ears will hear anyway.

Listen for a couple days.

Now wire up the tweets and high pass them with some caps. See what they sound like at a high pass of 4, 5 or 6000 Hz.

Put the sounds together and listen for a few more days.

Find one of those powered subs with a plate and throw that in the mix... let it run out to 180 or where ever it gives up. Listen to some stuff and then decide what you like and don't like.

Start making holes!
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2004, 05:15 AM   #5
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Columbus, OH
Oh chipco, I know about the holes, trust me

I already have an OB with 16 of the Pioneers and 18 of the Onkyos installed (did 16/18 so they're both 8 ohms...I put the Onkyos centered for now. Got sick of drilling LoL). I just haven't had time yet to wire them up and have a listen. That part should only take me 1-2 hours so I'll probably have that done tomorrow. I did do a "prototype" before with 12 4" and 16 of the tweeters. The sound was HUGE and remarkable. I couldn't believe it. It was nowhere near a great sounding speaker in my books(response-wise), but the sound was just HUGE and with little power.

These full-rangers seem like an ideal way to go. The 4" sound decent full-range but I'm looking for something more accurate that won't cause myself a headache trying to make a crossover for.

Thanks!
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2004, 02:01 PM   #6
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: New Hampshire
A crossover for this isn't any big deal at all, just go here for values for a 3rd order crossover at 6kHz; 4th order if you wish:

http://www.lalena.com/audio/calculator/xover/
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2004, 02:19 PM   #7
diyAudio Member
 
Timn8ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Have you checked out this thread?
line array cabinets are finished
The Isa gets loud and has a huge soundstage, reasonably efficient too. I'm contemplating reworking the crossover (does this ever end?) to see if I can tighten up the imaging. The one thing that is very nice is the bipole ML-TQWT cab which the 5" woofers occupy. Beautiful bass response from this unit.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2004, 03:37 PM   #8
Lusso5 is offline Lusso5  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Lusso5's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Houston, TX
Mazeroth - Have you read Dr. Griffin's paper yet?

http://www.audiodiycentral.com/resource/pdf/nflawp.pdf

It seems with butting the 269-570 drivers end-to-end the crossover shouldn't go higher than about 3k, or so - depending on the slope you use.

Tim - any comb filtering/imaging problems with the Isa? I'm curious as to how you guys avoid it in the full-range arrays.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th September 2004, 05:12 PM   #9
diyAudio Member
 
Timn8ter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Seattle, WA
Quote:
Tim - any comb filtering/imaging problems with the Isa? I'm curious as to how you guys avoid it in the full-range arrays.
Yes, I am having some issues. If you keep your head perfectly still the sound is superb, if you turn or move your head you can hear a drop in HF. I use the speakers in my 5.1 HT so I don't notice very much but I'm not ready to give up. Going to keep fiddling with it.
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th September 2004, 04:19 AM   #10
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Columbus, OH
I took Chipco's advice and wired the 4"ers up full-range and listened to them for about an hour. They are on an open baffle with 16 drivers and 18 tweeters (got sick of making holes). For the test I only wired up the middle 8 drivers for an 8 ohm load. At first I wasn't very impressed with the sound. The speaker was placed ~3 feet from the wall. I then decided to adjust the bass/treble knobs on my Harman Kardon AVR230. WoW! Sound MUCH BETTER! The 4" Pioneers sound SO much better with the bass turned all the way up. Before the adjustment they sounded very weak and hollow, but after boosting the bass (generically, I know) they really stood out. I even had to turn to treble way up to help them with their weaker high-end. Very impressive! Not near audiophile quality but a damn bargain at under $10 shipped.

I then wired up 9 tweeters to match the 8 ohm load and the high-end opened up. I did mess up a little with this prototype: I drilled out 1.5" holes for the tweeters without any kind of roundover. They are mounted behind the 3/4" MDF and not much of the sound is getting out. They're also mounted about 2.75" apart as I haven't taken off any of the excess plastic yet.

After this test with running the 4"ers full-range I am getting high expectations on better built full-range drivers. I can only imagine what a quality Tang will sound like. With just the 8 4" speakers I almost went deaf at a listening position of about 10 feet. For a stereo pair I'm not sure if I'll really need to make the full 16 driver towers. This would save me a lot of time as my woodworking skills aren't stellar and also up the WAF.

One question...I'd like to keep running the 4" full-range as they sound much better to me this way then hooked up to a crossover. Should I cross the tweeters over around 3-3.5k like suggested with the C-C calculation, or could I let the tweeters cross over a lot higher, say in the 8-10k range? Or is this stupid? I just don't want the 3k-8k or 10k range (or higher or lower, whatever) to be playing excessively loud. OR would it be better to let the 4" speakers go until say 5k or so, and let the tweeters take over after that? Your call. I'm all ears!

THANKS!


EDIT:
I just tried the speakers again with the crossover hooked up (Infinity Kappa car crossover) but this time I turned the bass and the treble up (forgot to last time). Sounds STUNNING! Unreal! Turning the bass/treble back to flat makes these sound subpar, but once it's boosted up they are remarkable speakers. I usually prefer my bass/treble at 0 (flat) but not with these.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Full Range Line array Efficiency and Impedance Question? rjp366 Full Range 10 23rd August 2009 07:42 PM
Full range line array inrank Full Range 39 20th January 2009 01:27 PM
Jordan JX6 full-range line array bcherry Full Range 74 3rd April 2007 08:53 AM
line array with full range drivers? leadbelly Multi-Way 9 25th January 2003 05:48 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:00 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2