I'm planning a total home audio overhaul. I've been doing a lot of research, but since all of this is so subjective I'd like some direct feedback on my plans.
I'm planning on setting up a 7.1, 5.1.2, or possibly 7.1.2 surround system in the living room. Realistically it's probably going to be used for 95% TV/movies, and 5% music. I have significant woodworking skills, I used to build acoustic guitars, so building speaker cabinets is fairly easy to me. The room is pretty small, and it's in a semi-detached house, so I won't be playing anything too terribly loud for fear of annoying the neighbors. Reference volume is not a priority.
For the center and surround/back/height channels I'm planning on using the GRS 8-FR8 (the cheap attempted BOFU clone) in a sealed ~1ft^3 box with a cheap piezo tweeter to extend the highs, crossed over somewhere between 10 and 15 KHz. There's enough documentation on this configuration that I'm reasonably certain it will work well enough.
I already have a subwoofer, which I plan on eventually upgrading, but what I have is good enough for now so let's just ignore that for the time being.
What I'm not so sure about is the main left/right speakers. I think I want to do a WAW system. If I didn't have a forum like this to ask for advice, I'd probably use something like the Markaudio CHR-70 crossed over to a 8" Dayton Ultimax subwoofer driver (one for each side) at 250-300Hz, with both in sealed enclosures, biamped with an analog active crossover. Are there any other fullrange drivers I should be considering for this configuration? Is there a good reason not to use the 8" Ultimax for this? I would say the budget is roughly $225 in drivers (exculding the boxes and misc. components) per side.
Any feedback on any part of this plan would be greatly appreciated. Unfortunately I can't do big horn enclosures like the BIB or FH3 due to the large size and low WAF, but I hope to end up with something that I won't regret building the first time around.
I'm planning on setting up a 7.1, 5.1.2, or possibly 7.1.2 surround system in the living room. Realistically it's probably going to be used for 95% TV/movies, and 5% music. I have significant woodworking skills, I used to build acoustic guitars, so building speaker cabinets is fairly easy to me. The room is pretty small, and it's in a semi-detached house, so I won't be playing anything too terribly loud for fear of annoying the neighbors. Reference volume is not a priority.
For the center and surround/back/height channels I'm planning on using the GRS 8-FR8 (the cheap attempted BOFU clone) in a sealed ~1ft^3 box with a cheap piezo tweeter to extend the highs, crossed over somewhere between 10 and 15 KHz. There's enough documentation on this configuration that I'm reasonably certain it will work well enough.
I already have a subwoofer, which I plan on eventually upgrading, but what I have is good enough for now so let's just ignore that for the time being.
What I'm not so sure about is the main left/right speakers. I think I want to do a WAW system. If I didn't have a forum like this to ask for advice, I'd probably use something like the Markaudio CHR-70 crossed over to a 8" Dayton Ultimax subwoofer driver (one for each side) at 250-300Hz, with both in sealed enclosures, biamped with an analog active crossover. Are there any other fullrange drivers I should be considering for this configuration? Is there a good reason not to use the 8" Ultimax for this? I would say the budget is roughly $225 in drivers (exculding the boxes and misc. components) per side.
Any feedback on any part of this plan would be greatly appreciated. Unfortunately I can't do big horn enclosures like the BIB or FH3 due to the large size and low WAF, but I hope to end up with something that I won't regret building the first time around.
Hi Andy, I wonder why you would want the added complexity and issues associated with active XO's. Since you're already considering FRS-8's, why not the Visaton Stella? It's a proven design, WAW and pretty easy to build and looks good in small rooms.
Edit: Whoops, read that wrong. FR8 instead of FRS-8.
Edit: Whoops, read that wrong. FR8 instead of FRS-8.
If I were to setup a small movie room, and needed small and WAF friendly, I'd go with TABAQs for LCR, and use the same driver for surrounds. That way, you keep the same tonality all around the soeaker set.
Even the surrounds could be TABAQs hanging upside down, or just small sealed or vented boxes for a little less intrusive.
LOTS of very happy builders made the TABAQs since it is such a simple build, and works very well. Check out its thread here:
TABAQ TL for Tang Band
Even the surrounds could be TABAQs hanging upside down, or just small sealed or vented boxes for a little less intrusive.
LOTS of very happy builders made the TABAQs since it is such a simple build, and works very well. Check out its thread here:
TABAQ TL for Tang Band
Thanks for the Pluvia tip Dave, plan updated accordingly.
Actually it turns out the room really isn't technically small, it's over 2200 ft^3. It just seems small because it's rather narrow, only 2/3 of it is used as a movie room, and the ceilings are 10ft high.
The front of the room has no available floor space due to furniture and the crate for our ridiculously oversized dog, so I won't be able to get away with floorstanding speakers. That pretty much rules out the traditional TABAQ, but I could do a folded version or hang them upside down. I guess I don't fully understand the benefit of a transmission line design, other than extended bass response, vs a simple sealed enclosure.
Aesthetically I do kind of like the idea of upside down TABAQs for everything except the center channel...
Actually it turns out the room really isn't technically small, it's over 2200 ft^3. It just seems small because it's rather narrow, only 2/3 of it is used as a movie room, and the ceilings are 10ft high.
The front of the room has no available floor space due to furniture and the crate for our ridiculously oversized dog, so I won't be able to get away with floorstanding speakers. That pretty much rules out the traditional TABAQ, but I could do a folded version or hang them upside down. I guess I don't fully understand the benefit of a transmission line design, other than extended bass response, vs a simple sealed enclosure.
Aesthetically I do kind of like the idea of upside down TABAQs for everything except the center channel...
Andy - with a 10ft ceiling, that equates to approx 220 sq ft, which is certainly not large. If you were considering the CHRs, I can definitely second Dave's suggestion of the Pluvias.
FWIW, I've played for a few years now with surround systems using all MA drivers, in a basement room that's approx 340 sq ft x slightly under 8ft ceiling, so approx 500cu ft larger than you cite. I'm currently running Alpair 10s across the front row -10.3 in Pensil for L&R, and 10P in small vented centre enclosure-, with Pluvia 7 for front height surrounds and A6M in rear. I'd previously used Alpair7s for the front row in similar designs, and upgraded as much because I just wanted to build something new as from any sense of performance shortcomings - since I hardly ever listen above 90dB, the A7s certainly had none .
As a basement "den" this room has a staircase, consuming half of one side wall, a rear wall door and fireplace that present some constraints on size / placement of some of the enclosures - both sets of perimeter surrounds are small wall mounted designs. If floor space is lacking, there are quite a few interesting designs here http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/MT-HT-Appendix-191209.pdf that might be worth looking at for ideas - particularly for the center channel. While designed for the original CHR's T/S parameters, this set is a bit dated, I think it still gives some good ideas for smaller wall mounted enclosures. There are also quite a few "Mar-Kens" Frugal-phile | Box Library / Mark Audio that are compact enough to be wall mounted. I'm not sure if Dave has scoured through his entire design library to update on specific revisions to net volumes and vent tuning details for the new Pluvias, but I'm sure he could give some suggestions.
FWIW, I've played for a few years now with surround systems using all MA drivers, in a basement room that's approx 340 sq ft x slightly under 8ft ceiling, so approx 500cu ft larger than you cite. I'm currently running Alpair 10s across the front row -10.3 in Pensil for L&R, and 10P in small vented centre enclosure-, with Pluvia 7 for front height surrounds and A6M in rear. I'd previously used Alpair7s for the front row in similar designs, and upgraded as much because I just wanted to build something new as from any sense of performance shortcomings - since I hardly ever listen above 90dB, the A7s certainly had none .
As a basement "den" this room has a staircase, consuming half of one side wall, a rear wall door and fireplace that present some constraints on size / placement of some of the enclosures - both sets of perimeter surrounds are small wall mounted designs. If floor space is lacking, there are quite a few interesting designs here http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/P10free/MT-HT-Appendix-191209.pdf that might be worth looking at for ideas - particularly for the center channel. While designed for the original CHR's T/S parameters, this set is a bit dated, I think it still gives some good ideas for smaller wall mounted enclosures. There are also quite a few "Mar-Kens" Frugal-phile | Box Library / Mark Audio that are compact enough to be wall mounted. I'm not sure if Dave has scoured through his entire design library to update on specific revisions to net volumes and vent tuning details for the new Pluvias, but I'm sure he could give some suggestions.
Now that you guys have made me look a little closer at the MLTL designs, it occurs to me that the front of the room is pretty much the only place where I'd have trouble putting something tall and skinny like the TABAQ or Pensil. So now I'm thinking about using TABAQs or Pensils for all seven channels, with the surround channels on the floor and the left and right upside down on the wall. I might even be able to squeeze one in on the floor for the center channel.
Can these things, with their 3-4" drivers, actually produce reasonable SPL's down to 80-120 Hz in the real world and cross with a legitimate subwoofer?
Can these things, with their 3-4" drivers, actually produce reasonable SPL's down to 80-120 Hz in the real world and cross with a legitimate subwoofer?
Okay, I'm sold. I guess I'm between the TABAQ and Dave's EL70 small MLTL design with the Pluvia 7. Obvious question: which is better? Looks like the 4" Pluvia should be capable of more SPL than the 3" TB's, especially at low frequencies; similar sensitivity, more power handling, and much more xmax. The 4" TB's look like a closer match for the Pluvia.
Which TB model, exactly? I've had tons of experience with almost every model of driver by Mark Audio, including the EL70, ERT26 dome tweeter and EL166/Woofer6, but only a couple of the smaller TangBands, so my comments would most likely be considered a bit biased.
FWIW, I've also played with a fairly wide number of Fostex FE & FF series, including ancient reclaimed predecessors to the FE103, and the Realistic 40-1197 variant, as well as F120A and FX120. Also the sadly missed CSS EL70, FR125, and VWR126.
The Alpairs / Pluvias still reside in my main system, so that'll tell you where my mind is at.
FWIW, I've also played with a fairly wide number of Fostex FE & FF series, including ancient reclaimed predecessors to the FE103, and the Realistic 40-1197 variant, as well as F120A and FX120. Also the sadly missed CSS EL70, FR125, and VWR126.
The Alpairs / Pluvias still reside in my main system, so that'll tell you where my mind is at.
I have no idea. They all seem to be versions of the same thing, with either neodymium or ferrite magnets and poly, bamboo or titanium cones. I guess I'd be inclined to go with the W4-1337SDF (4", titanium, ferrite) since the bamboo version seems to be out of stock everywhere and the cheaper poly version lists less frequency response.
I'm leaning rather strongly towards the Pluvia though.
I'm leaning rather strongly towards the Pluvia though.
The TB drivers are usually good, with good extension, but rarely flat. I've tried a few of them, and they usually need some work to get a better sound.
That means either a passively done notch (or two), or using EQ.
I have a pair using the W4-1052SDF, and it sounds good, but needs two small notches to be reasonably flat, goes down to about 45Hz and extends to 15kHz, which is the limit of my ears at the moment.
This post from Bjorn (the designer), where he simmed the Alpair 7 in a TABAQ, stating it would work well.
TABAQ TL for Tang Band
From the simulations I have done, the output has less ripples when mounting the driver lower on the transmission line, like in the TABAQ design.
You could also hang the front L/R upside down, or right side up on the wall, and in this way, usually not needing a BSC circuit. It also saves you floor space.
The centre could be lying on it's side.
That means either a passively done notch (or two), or using EQ.
I have a pair using the W4-1052SDF, and it sounds good, but needs two small notches to be reasonably flat, goes down to about 45Hz and extends to 15kHz, which is the limit of my ears at the moment.
This post from Bjorn (the designer), where he simmed the Alpair 7 in a TABAQ, stating it would work well.
TABAQ TL for Tang Band
From the simulations I have done, the output has less ripples when mounting the driver lower on the transmission line, like in the TABAQ design.
You could also hang the front L/R upside down, or right side up on the wall, and in this way, usually not needing a BSC circuit. It also saves you floor space.
The centre could be lying on it's side.
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For surround duties that is OK, but the center speaker ideally should be the same as L/R.
90% of all movie sound comes from the center speaker.
Updated plan: MA Pluvia 7 in the Frugal-phile small quarterwave MLTL design meant for the CSS EL70, but with a .73" high slot on the bottom of the baffle (similar to the TABAQ) instead of the round port in the back. I'll use identical speakers for all seven channels, with the main left & right upside down and wall mounted, all of the others will be on the floor. If I do height speakers, they'll be either small sealed boxes with the same drivers or maybe even another pair of the same MLTLs.
Then eventually I'll replace my little 8" "sub"woofer that has trouble going below 35hz with an 18" Ultimax in a sealed box powered with an inuke, and I'll finally have a real sound system.
Then eventually I'll replace my little 8" "sub"woofer that has trouble going below 35hz with an 18" Ultimax in a sealed box powered with an inuke, and I'll finally have a real sound system.
- not sure if Dave has actually printed that yet? - quite satisfactory. They're quite small enough to be easily wall mountable.
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