The FX120 is a good driver, at least a decade older design than the FF165wk. The latter is more dynamic, the former smoother. and it works in the available volume.
If you are going to go as far as adding a ring, you open up a whole range of smaller drivers. Finding one that works in the volume you have is a bit harder unless you are willing to add some solid fill into the box to reduce the net volume (a good excuse for more bracing).
The 1st driver that comes to mind is the Alpair 7.3 which — except for bass extension — is the best driver suggested so far. The Pluvia 7 has much the same voicing (but gives away some DDR), is cheaper and can work in the volume you have. It also can be used without a rebate.
There are also many potential drivers which i have not had experience with, for instance many Tangbands (which are popular in Europe) and maybe Visatons or Monaco drivers that do not make it across the Atlantic.
Rings can be made to add to the speaker aesthetic, we have had to do it a couple times.
The ones i am listening to now with Alpair 10PeN:
And a set with the 4” EL70 (i do need to take a picture without the helper woofers, the detail of the EnABL ringset on the inserted piece is very nice):
dave
If you are going to go as far as adding a ring, you open up a whole range of smaller drivers. Finding one that works in the volume you have is a bit harder unless you are willing to add some solid fill into the box to reduce the net volume (a good excuse for more bracing).
The 1st driver that comes to mind is the Alpair 7.3 which — except for bass extension — is the best driver suggested so far. The Pluvia 7 has much the same voicing (but gives away some DDR), is cheaper and can work in the volume you have. It also can be used without a rebate.
There are also many potential drivers which i have not had experience with, for instance many Tangbands (which are popular in Europe) and maybe Visatons or Monaco drivers that do not make it across the Atlantic.
Rings can be made to add to the speaker aesthetic, we have had to do it a couple times.
The ones i am listening to now with Alpair 10PeN:
And a set with the 4” EL70 (i do need to take a picture without the helper woofers, the detail of the EnABL ringset on the inserted piece is very nice):
dave
You could go lower in resistance - this will lower tweeter output, raise lower roll-in point and increase damping.
The other thing to do is to add a Zobel network across the tweeter - 3.3uF//0.1uF + 8R...this will further 'tame' the tweeter.
Adding a resistor and a Zobel across the woofer will clean up the woofer also.
Like I said, experiment with resistor types....your ceramic 5W is totally failure proof but adds its own sound.
I am running externally mounted crossover, and in practice I find that 1W resistors are perfectly adequate and surprisingly do not get warm to the touch even when running 100W amp at decently loud levels.
Can you post a schematic of the crossover ?.
Dan.
I will be quite happy if my resultant work doesn't look like it's chewed by rats. Come to think of it I could make jagged edges that looks like it's done on purpose.
The Alpair 10P is a little big, it will overlap with the screw that I mount the wood ring to the speaker box. But as I am typing this I thought of using countersunk screws for that. So it can be done!
Alpair 7P also looks good, even flatter FR than the FX120. The larger Alpair 10P does not look as flat. Of course this is on paper. Do these smaller drivers have audibly better mid and high?
I think adding braces might be beyond me, but adding foam should be easy enough if I have to reduce volume.
I don't know the circuit of the crossover, it cannot be easily removed.
The spec says 3kHz 24db/octave. The capacitor values are:
C1 100V 13uF
C2 100V 100uF
C3 100V 33uF
C4 100V 4.7uF
C5 100V 24uF
Attachments
To expand on the ring idea...
I will cut a wooden ring with an OD of 170mm. The inner hole would be 150mm at the maximum, depending on the driver used.
I can also attach a larger ring on that ring, or basically a supra baffle of any shape. If I do that I can also fit a FF165WH or even a 7" driver as long as the cut out needed is under 150mm
But among those at Madisound, the flattest manufacturer's FR seems to be the Fostex FX120 and the Alpair 7P. If the FX120P is the smoothest of them all I might be inclined to try it this time.
I will cut a wooden ring with an OD of 170mm. The inner hole would be 150mm at the maximum, depending on the driver used.
I can also attach a larger ring on that ring, or basically a supra baffle of any shape. If I do that I can also fit a FF165WH or even a 7" driver as long as the cut out needed is under 150mm
But among those at Madisound, the flattest manufacturer's FR seems to be the Fostex FX120 and the Alpair 7P. If the FX120P is the smoothest of them all I might be inclined to try it this time.
Pardon the post spam again.
I've been doing a lot of reading on the sound characteristic of these drivers, Planet10 has already said much on the subject. Sorry should have searched first. Long story short he seems to thinks the FX120 is old, the newer Mark Audios gets recommended pretty much all the time. That said no one said anything bad about the FX120. One guy said 10P sounds like there is a loudness effect on it, otherwise from the feedback it appear to have a pleasant sound signature.
So I think these 2 made it to the short list, I might have to try out both eventually. The FX120 is easier to mount, the Mark Audios have thick frames.
I will be going away these few weeks so this is put on hold for now. After that I should have everything with me and I should be able to finish this in no time.
Thanks everyone, your contributions are much appreciated!
I've been doing a lot of reading on the sound characteristic of these drivers, Planet10 has already said much on the subject. Sorry should have searched first. Long story short he seems to thinks the FX120 is old, the newer Mark Audios gets recommended pretty much all the time. That said no one said anything bad about the FX120. One guy said 10P sounds like there is a loudness effect on it, otherwise from the feedback it appear to have a pleasant sound signature.
So I think these 2 made it to the short list, I might have to try out both eventually. The FX120 is easier to mount, the Mark Audios have thick frames.
I will be going away these few weeks so this is put on hold for now. After that I should have everything with me and I should be able to finish this in no time.
Thanks everyone, your contributions are much appreciated!
FX120's cast aluminum frame is almost as thick as the Alpairs, and as I recall not exactly a chamfered cornered square, so probably at least a much work to rebate for flush mounting.
Yes, they are a much older design than any by Mark Audio, but at least a couple of members here still use them on a regular basis. I've heard a fair number of the cited makes/models in a range of enclosure designs, and while I can easily waffle on a decision between several of the Alpairs, I prefer both the A10s and A7.3 to FX120.
Yes, they are a much older design than any by Mark Audio, but at least a couple of members here still use them on a regular basis. I've heard a fair number of the cited makes/models in a range of enclosure designs, and while I can easily waffle on a decision between several of the Alpairs, I prefer both the A10s and A7.3 to FX120.
May I ask why? Is the FX120 comparatively more clinical and less dynamic sounding ?
I think the thickness is 8 vs 11.5mm if I’m not mistaken.
Less clinical (if i read what you mean right) and less dynamic then A7.3/A10/A10p.
The A7p mentioned is not as good as its metal counterpart, we were a bit disappointed when it did not have the same sonic signature relationship with the metal cones as the A6.2p/m, A103/A10p and has some HF issues which take at least a significant break-in to work out and possible the treatment i do on top of that (the only pr we got this far was EnABLed). It is not a bad driver, it just not stand out as high as the others.
dave
The A7p mentioned is not as good as its metal counterpart, we were a bit disappointed when it did not have the same sonic signature relationship with the metal cones as the A6.2p/m, A103/A10p and has some HF issues which take at least a significant break-in to work out and possible the treatment i do on top of that (the only pr we got this far was EnABLed). It is not a bad driver, it just not stand out as high as the others.
dave
I was about to go the Alpair 7.3, the 10P, or the FX120 when I come back. But I realise for the same money I could get the Andrew Jones Elac Debut B6.2, a speaker from a famous designer that is guaranteed to work well. I have no other way but to order these drivers unheard, in an enclosure that isn't designed for them. That seems like quite a gamble.
I almost pulled the trigger on a pair of ready made speakers from China made with the Alpair 7.3 in an 8L ported enclosure (I think it was made from the plan on the MA site), it only cost a little more than getting the drivers from Madisound. But again, I come across another option:
Tang Band W5-2143 5" Paper Cone Full Range Driver 8 Ohm
This might be a better option to dip my toe in the pool. I realise there are cheaper driver light the Fostex FF105WK or the MA CHR/CHP, but PE's shipping is much cheaper than Madisound for me, and they end up to be about the same.
I almost pulled the trigger on a pair of ready made speakers from China made with the Alpair 7.3 in an 8L ported enclosure (I think it was made from the plan on the MA site), it only cost a little more than getting the drivers from Madisound. But again, I come across another option:
Tang Band W5-2143 5" Paper Cone Full Range Driver 8 Ohm
This might be a better option to dip my toe in the pool. I realise there are cheaper driver light the Fostex FF105WK or the MA CHR/CHP, but PE's shipping is much cheaper than Madisound for me, and they end up to be about the same.
You are right that I cannot even decide on my basic approach. Usually, my philosophy is to buy the best I can afford. I would rather have a pair of good speakers than many pairs of mediocre speakers (they takes up space and money I don't have).
I have about a dozen pairs of headphones. In hind sight I would may be only buy a few of them. But this hind sight is not earned without cost, it is something that needs to be purchased with time and money.
In psycho analysing myself this is where my reluctance lies, the exchange of tangible with the intangible, speculating on the path not taken over the traveled path that is known to be true.
My former main speakers are the Jamo 507 floorstanders. This is may be coming to 20 year old. I have them in a small room and find their bass right on the border between overwhelming and manageable. So I am thinking of something superior and smaller. I tried out the TV speakers I have outside (this much cheaper Infinity Primus) with a subwoofer which is somewhat underwhelming.
I have heard the ELAC B6, in many ways they are similar the Jamo 507 which I liked (full bodied and image big), and they seem to be superior in details, hard to tell for sure because it's in the showroom. My complaint is the high is a tad rolled off and bass might be just as overwhelming as the Jamo. I have not heard the B6.2 but these aspects seems to be exactly that was remedied.
You are right that single driver is probably more different than what I have heard, even if it is not something I like, I will probably wonder about it till the day I die.
I have about a dozen pairs of headphones. In hind sight I would may be only buy a few of them. But this hind sight is not earned without cost, it is something that needs to be purchased with time and money.
In psycho analysing myself this is where my reluctance lies, the exchange of tangible with the intangible, speculating on the path not taken over the traveled path that is known to be true.
My former main speakers are the Jamo 507 floorstanders. This is may be coming to 20 year old. I have them in a small room and find their bass right on the border between overwhelming and manageable. So I am thinking of something superior and smaller. I tried out the TV speakers I have outside (this much cheaper Infinity Primus) with a subwoofer which is somewhat underwhelming.
I have heard the ELAC B6, in many ways they are similar the Jamo 507 which I liked (full bodied and image big), and they seem to be superior in details, hard to tell for sure because it's in the showroom. My complaint is the high is a tad rolled off and bass might be just as overwhelming as the Jamo. I have not heard the B6.2 but these aspects seems to be exactly that was remedied.
You are right that single driver is probably more different than what I have heard, even if it is not something I like, I will probably wonder about it till the day I die.
I took the plunge, sort of. I found a seller in China that sells custom machine cut wood. I ordered a pair of Paulownia ring (170mm OD, 125mm ID, 8mm thick). The material and thickness is not ideal but good enough I guess. This will look nicer than anything I can chew out with a dremel, which should fit the Tang Band W5-2143, which I will order once I'm back.
If it doesn't work out, I will then order the B6.2. Or may be add a line level crossover and turn this thing into a 2 way.
If it doesn't work out, I will then order the B6.2. Or may be add a line level crossover and turn this thing into a 2 way.
They're in!
Both wood rings were cracked by screws despite pre drilling, plywood or MDF would be better.
Sound wise, initial impression, FR seems pretty flat, extension on both ends seems good. For my subjective taste, I wished the midrange is more fleshed out and image bigger. We'll see what happens after running in.
I ran these in for 80 hours now, I think they started to loosen up after the 60 hour mark.
I listen to these about 30 deg off axis. They face straight ahead and form an equilateral triangle with my head. I am less than 2 meters from the speakers. For the most parts, they sounded smooth, full bodied, and warm. All I have read about the down sides of full ranger, I don't hear it. For me they sounded like a typical pair of 2 way bookshelves. The higher frequencies beam and bass don't go deep but that's about it.
But for now I think I still prefer my 20 year old Jamo 507 , despite the old electrolytic capacitors and the iron core inductors in the crossover.
I think they may have a slight peak between 7-10k Hz region that makes some voices sound edgy, though not nearly as much as the stock drivers. It depends on the recording though. Good recordings sounded ok, even very smooth. For bad recordings, these does not forgive. I find this odd and I'm not sure why this is the case, these don't throw details in your face like some bright and sharp sounding speakers.
Another problem is at lower volume they are flat and unexciting. They needed to be loud to sound good, but loud is also fatiguing. May be I am sitting too close to them.
I think adding a tweeter and crossover would get around that 7-10k Hz peak and take the edginess out of bad recording, but would it help with the flat sounding part at lower volume? I am also interested in trying Dayton Audio AMT tweeters. Adding some airiness would be nice too.
Or I should simply not mess with stuffs beyond me and get my Elac instead.
I listen to these about 30 deg off axis. They face straight ahead and form an equilateral triangle with my head. I am less than 2 meters from the speakers. For the most parts, they sounded smooth, full bodied, and warm. All I have read about the down sides of full ranger, I don't hear it. For me they sounded like a typical pair of 2 way bookshelves. The higher frequencies beam and bass don't go deep but that's about it.
But for now I think I still prefer my 20 year old Jamo 507 , despite the old electrolytic capacitors and the iron core inductors in the crossover.
I think they may have a slight peak between 7-10k Hz region that makes some voices sound edgy, though not nearly as much as the stock drivers. It depends on the recording though. Good recordings sounded ok, even very smooth. For bad recordings, these does not forgive. I find this odd and I'm not sure why this is the case, these don't throw details in your face like some bright and sharp sounding speakers.
Another problem is at lower volume they are flat and unexciting. They needed to be loud to sound good, but loud is also fatiguing. May be I am sitting too close to them.
I think adding a tweeter and crossover would get around that 7-10k Hz peak and take the edginess out of bad recording, but would it help with the flat sounding part at lower volume? I am also interested in trying Dayton Audio AMT tweeters. Adding some airiness would be nice too.
Or I should simply not mess with stuffs beyond me and get my Elac instead.
I'm just talking to myself but I thought information on the Tang Band W5-2143 is so scarce on this forum that this might help those researching about it in the future.
I was trying to solve the problems I heard earlier, some recordings sounded bad and flat sounding at lower volume. It turns out those two are the same problem. This did not happen all the time but sometimes it sounded like some vocals has a hint of "zzz". I thought it was some sort of resonance problem. After all this enclosures aren't designed for this, or this could be a driver problem. I even looked into high passing this driver. But before I spend money on passive filters and even tweeters I thought I should may be check on other stuffs. In the end the problem was from a bad USB socket on a USB to SPDIF converter.
This is not a new problem for me, it crackles when moved, but as long as I held the plug in a certain way it would sound alright, at least this is the case with my other speakers. it is possible that these crossover-less W5-2143 is more transparent that it could pick up system problem that wasn't detected my other speakers that are full of iron core inductors and electrolytic capacitors.
Burn in
I thought these drivers need quite a bit of time to burn in. I use a mixture of music, pink noise, and 55Hz (the driver's Fs) sine wave, generally ramping up from soft to loud. As mentioned before 60 hours mark, these didn't sound right. Before that at some point these were shouty, at some point very forward sounding like the singer is singing in my face, at some point tense sounding all around. I would suggest patience and give these 100 hours before you make any judgement.
The sound
This is my subjective opinion, take of it as you will. I can only speak for these in my enclosure, and in conjunction of a subwoofer. My other components are mid to low end stuffs by popular hifi brand like Marantz and Rega, and are generally considered warm sounding. I listen to these about 1.7m from the speakers.
I would say these are close to neutral, may be slightly on the warm side. The low end are flat-ish to about 100Hz and by 50Hz I almost don't hear anything. On the high end may be flat-ish up to about 14kHz. After 18kHz either there is almost nothing or I can't hear it. I used to be able to hear close to 20kHz but I have not checked lately.
The sound is also pretty smooth by low to mid end standard. How smooth? I thought the $1000 Dynaudio Emit M20 has grainy midrange. It's the good kind of smooth, horns still have their bite. May be about on par with the $1000 B&W 685 s2, mostly smooth but not high end smooth. I mentioned those two because a certain popular but confusedly named hifi review sites likes them and many might be familiar. Although if you ask me both of those are overpriced. These are $120 a pair so we need to be realistic.
I am allergic to a sharp top end that throws details in my face. Listening to these off axis, I would say this is not a problem, though YMMV. This sounds cliche, but I managed to hear stuff I had not heard before on one track, and as mentioned earlier it picked up my previously undetected system problem, I would say these are no slouch in the detail department.
Imaging is also good. Sound staging is neither forward nor recessed. Sound stage is relatively spacious
I was trying to solve the problems I heard earlier, some recordings sounded bad and flat sounding at lower volume. It turns out those two are the same problem. This did not happen all the time but sometimes it sounded like some vocals has a hint of "zzz". I thought it was some sort of resonance problem. After all this enclosures aren't designed for this, or this could be a driver problem. I even looked into high passing this driver. But before I spend money on passive filters and even tweeters I thought I should may be check on other stuffs. In the end the problem was from a bad USB socket on a USB to SPDIF converter.
This is not a new problem for me, it crackles when moved, but as long as I held the plug in a certain way it would sound alright, at least this is the case with my other speakers. it is possible that these crossover-less W5-2143 is more transparent that it could pick up system problem that wasn't detected my other speakers that are full of iron core inductors and electrolytic capacitors.
Burn in
I thought these drivers need quite a bit of time to burn in. I use a mixture of music, pink noise, and 55Hz (the driver's Fs) sine wave, generally ramping up from soft to loud. As mentioned before 60 hours mark, these didn't sound right. Before that at some point these were shouty, at some point very forward sounding like the singer is singing in my face, at some point tense sounding all around. I would suggest patience and give these 100 hours before you make any judgement.
The sound
This is my subjective opinion, take of it as you will. I can only speak for these in my enclosure, and in conjunction of a subwoofer. My other components are mid to low end stuffs by popular hifi brand like Marantz and Rega, and are generally considered warm sounding. I listen to these about 1.7m from the speakers.
I would say these are close to neutral, may be slightly on the warm side. The low end are flat-ish to about 100Hz and by 50Hz I almost don't hear anything. On the high end may be flat-ish up to about 14kHz. After 18kHz either there is almost nothing or I can't hear it. I used to be able to hear close to 20kHz but I have not checked lately.
The sound is also pretty smooth by low to mid end standard. How smooth? I thought the $1000 Dynaudio Emit M20 has grainy midrange. It's the good kind of smooth, horns still have their bite. May be about on par with the $1000 B&W 685 s2, mostly smooth but not high end smooth. I mentioned those two because a certain popular but confusedly named hifi review sites likes them and many might be familiar. Although if you ask me both of those are overpriced. These are $120 a pair so we need to be realistic.
I am allergic to a sharp top end that throws details in my face. Listening to these off axis, I would say this is not a problem, though YMMV. This sounds cliche, but I managed to hear stuff I had not heard before on one track, and as mentioned earlier it picked up my previously undetected system problem, I would say these are no slouch in the detail department.
Imaging is also good. Sound staging is neither forward nor recessed. Sound stage is relatively spacious
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