So I've started my first project. It's a fairly simple (eventually sealed) box, approximately 245x145x130mm, and boy am I unhappy with my joinery skills.
I was trying really hard to make accurate measurements and get my mitres absolutely spot on, but they are all a little bit out. I've also tried to make a rebated groove to create a sunken in cap at the top and the base, using a mitre saw and most of those cuts are slightly out too!!
Is it fair to say, that without a table saw of some description, that getting really accurate, uniform straight clean mitres is pretty difficult? or am I missing something here?
I'm feeling a little frustrated.......
I was trying really hard to make accurate measurements and get my mitres absolutely spot on, but they are all a little bit out. I've also tried to make a rebated groove to create a sunken in cap at the top and the base, using a mitre saw and most of those cuts are slightly out too!!
Is it fair to say, that without a table saw of some description, that getting really accurate, uniform straight clean mitres is pretty difficult? or am I missing something here?
I'm feeling a little frustrated.......
Mitres are not as easy as they should be. I don't know what kind of saw you are using, but any time you make non-square cuts the difficulties are magnified. Is your material flat? Your tool may not be adjusted to a true 45 degrees. The first box should probably be simple butt joints since there is still the challenge of making your panels exact rectangles.
So: what Pano says.
So: what Pano says.
I'm no pro, but I think I manage well enough with my table saw and a fence, although a sled would possibly be better. I build 4 sides of the box with same-width panels and cap-off the two other sides with rough-cut ~¼" too wide panels and flush trim with a router. Mitre joints may look better, but I prefer convincing myself that I like BB-ply end-grain. 
I am sorry to hear you are frustrated. And I've been in the same situation - in fact, I've given up on even trying to build a decent box without a table saw.
There is carpentry, and there is DIY loudspeaker construction. I think it helps to make an advance decision - which one would you like to focus on for this project?
I think it takes a long time and a lot of experience to become a really good carpenter. Also, for me personally, carpentry is more a means to an end - I'm much more interested in the stuff going inside the box than in the box itself.
So I use either simple butt joints with corner reinforcements on the inside, or biscuit joinery.
From Wikipedia: "Biscuits are...sometimes used with solid wood, replacing mortise and tenon joints as they are easier to make and almost as strong."
I can't get any sort of reasonable results without a table saw - but I've seen expert carpenters get fantastic results using nothing but hand tools. It's a mostly dead art, though.
Here are some pics of the last box I made. I used butt joints with corner and edge reinforcements on the inside. The glued-in front and back panels added quite a lot of strength, too.
-Gnobuddy
Attachments
I am very poorly skilled with regard to cabinet making. I own some tools (small table saw, router, etc.) but nothing like the "big boys" that make impressive veneered cabinetry. I don't have the time, resources, space, or money to get there from where I am now so I look for off-the-shelf ideas that I can adapt into at least OK looking cabinets and loudspeaker projects.
One great source for this that is available worldwide is IKEA. I have used their kitchen cabinet frames as the "box" for a loudspeaker, plus internal bracing that I add and front and back baffles. It turns out OK, and you at least get a smooth finished surface without the look of raw MDF or plywood and some ugly glue joints! It's no substitute for a well-made cabinet, but it works for me.
More recently I started making open baffle speakers. A great looking material for the baffle is butcher block wood countertop. IKEA sells this in the US, and likely elsewhere in the world.
Anyway, I feel your pain. It's the same with many of my projects, loudspeaker or otherwise - I just don't have the skills to make a nice looking final product, so I have to outsource or improvise.
One great source for this that is available worldwide is IKEA. I have used their kitchen cabinet frames as the "box" for a loudspeaker, plus internal bracing that I add and front and back baffles. It turns out OK, and you at least get a smooth finished surface without the look of raw MDF or plywood and some ugly glue joints! It's no substitute for a well-made cabinet, but it works for me.
More recently I started making open baffle speakers. A great looking material for the baffle is butcher block wood countertop. IKEA sells this in the US, and likely elsewhere in the world.
Anyway, I feel your pain. It's the same with many of my projects, loudspeaker or otherwise - I just don't have the skills to make a nice looking final product, so I have to outsource or improvise.
Because I’m very proficient with CAD, and a bit of a perfectionist, the idea of CNCing the wood really appeals to me. But the costs of doing this seem a little bit prohibitive for this DIY project. I also like the idea of becoming better at the carpentry as I’m quite handy, which is why I decided to try this route first. I guess I’m just irritated that it’s not as good as I hoped and only now coming to terms with my limited cabinet making skills. Perhaps using mitres was a step too far.
You can invest a little in angle finders or inclinometers. I have the Trend magnetic digital blob and a digital calipers. Would also have liked a spirit level type angle finder but the Screwfix one on offer now seems to have all gone.
To bond things I use Tightbond 2 where I have control of everything.... i.e. well made simple joints in single planes. I use Soudal Pro 45P foaming PolyU adhesive for joints where I need the seal but I can't see it whilst it dries.... i.e. second side onto a labyrinth speaker where there are many pieces needing a gas tight joint.
The right tools can make everything a little easier. A workmate with a "portable" router table on top helps.
Finally, some of the more beautifully finished wood and ply speakers are a testament to the skills and experience of the builders and the time they have invested in tools and set up. The 1st time amateur builder is unlikely to match those results. Ha, unless the 1st 99 times don't make it to Youtube.
To bond things I use Tightbond 2 where I have control of everything.... i.e. well made simple joints in single planes. I use Soudal Pro 45P foaming PolyU adhesive for joints where I need the seal but I can't see it whilst it dries.... i.e. second side onto a labyrinth speaker where there are many pieces needing a gas tight joint.
The right tools can make everything a little easier. A workmate with a "portable" router table on top helps.
Finally, some of the more beautifully finished wood and ply speakers are a testament to the skills and experience of the builders and the time they have invested in tools and set up. The 1st time amateur builder is unlikely to match those results. Ha, unless the 1st 99 times don't make it to Youtube.
Miters are overrated, especially when working with sheet goods. One is better served learning veneer skills and layouts to that effect. This tends to give more control of these situations when one is reliant on hand tools. I have a Delta Unisaw and I end up using a circular saw/jigs and router.
To:
These are rabbet joined MDF boxes clad in birch. Nobody cares they are not miters. I could have faked miters at this point by merely mitering the veneer on the edges but nobody cares other than finicky people.
I built a quite nice fishing boat from wood mostly with hand tools that we still use often. It was difficult to convince people and the authorities it was handmade and hand painted with a brush. They always bend down to look for clues, as if someone would joke about such things.
I am no trade carpenter. I am determined and I have time.
To:
These are rabbet joined MDF boxes clad in birch. Nobody cares they are not miters. I could have faked miters at this point by merely mitering the veneer on the edges but nobody cares other than finicky people.
I built a quite nice fishing boat from wood mostly with hand tools that we still use often. It was difficult to convince people and the authorities it was handmade and hand painted with a brush. They always bend down to look for clues, as if someone would joke about such things.
I am no trade carpenter. I am determined and I have time.
Last edited:
For what it's worth, I get wood cut at B&Q for small projects. Come up with a cutlist and arrange your panels in such a way that a couple of mm either way won't affect the build much.
For instance, I recently built a low-profile sub with 3x6" drivers. I arranged the panels so the top and bottom would sandwich the rest of the panels.
I had the guy at B&Q cut all the 180mm width parts (internal panels, sides, etc) first, and then the large top and bottom panels.
I asked for the top and bottom panels to be around 5mm too large, and I used a router trim bit to get the edges right again once it was all glued together.
For larger projects, make some phone calls and talk to local timber merchants. They've usually got a decent table saw. Tell them how many sheets of what you'd like, and how many cuts it'll take, and they'll be able to give you a quote. The place I used for a set of 8x 15" ported subwoofers did most of the panel cuts (some were to be at angles, so I asked for those to be left as planks that I could sort later) for around 5x sheets of good birch ply (11 layers, very few voids). IIRC, it was less than £200 delivered to my door.
Even for my PA speakers, I use simple butt joints. Plenty of PVA, some bracing, and using half-decent wood means the drivers will break before the cabinets.
Chris
I cheat and cover my boxes in thin carpet.
It hides all the screws and bad joints.
For my w bins I get the plywood cut at my local DIY store.
They have a huge vertical circular saw that is very accurate.
I then just cut pieces to the length I want.
Makes gluing much easier when the joints are tight.
It hides all the screws and bad joints.
For my w bins I get the plywood cut at my local DIY store.
They have a huge vertical circular saw that is very accurate.
I then just cut pieces to the length I want.
Makes gluing much easier when the joints are tight.
See you are flying the british flag so given we have B&Q who will happily cut your flats to a pretty accurate size I don't think you need a table saw. I've had numerous projects cut by them, audio based and other stuff. The service is free of charge and they don't seem too worried about how many cuts.
My tactic is to have a word with the guy doing the cutting, let him know there's a drink in it if they are nice and accurate. OK, they probably shouldn't accept that but when you realise how little they earn and how poorly treated they are, I don't see a problem.
All mine have been cut to an accuracy of well under 1mm, probably nearer 0.5mm.
A bit of technique or method needs to be applied and this is where YOU guide the cutting chap. If say for the 4 sides of the box you want them all cut to exactly the same length then get him to slice a piece of the board that all 4 sides can be cut from without messing with the height setting. Also ensure each piece is cut both sides to the same datum. Apply the same technique for the other bits
The point is give him an accurate step by step drawing or list of how to cut the board.
Ok, If you can accept you don't need a table saw, there is one piece of kit that is essential in my view, a 1.4 router and a set of bits.
Rather than just mitre or pin on square flush ends, a far more accurate and strong result is given by rebating the sides to each other and the ends into that formed structure. Best way I can describe it without pictures is that each edge of each piece has a rebate of 1/2 the material thickness removed and all joints have a much greater glued surface than if simply mitred or butted. It also self squares when assembled.
Learn to use a router is the strongest advice I'd give, good luck.
My tactic is to have a word with the guy doing the cutting, let him know there's a drink in it if they are nice and accurate. OK, they probably shouldn't accept that but when you realise how little they earn and how poorly treated they are, I don't see a problem.
All mine have been cut to an accuracy of well under 1mm, probably nearer 0.5mm.
A bit of technique or method needs to be applied and this is where YOU guide the cutting chap. If say for the 4 sides of the box you want them all cut to exactly the same length then get him to slice a piece of the board that all 4 sides can be cut from without messing with the height setting. Also ensure each piece is cut both sides to the same datum. Apply the same technique for the other bits
The point is give him an accurate step by step drawing or list of how to cut the board.
Ok, If you can accept you don't need a table saw, there is one piece of kit that is essential in my view, a 1.4 router and a set of bits.
Rather than just mitre or pin on square flush ends, a far more accurate and strong result is given by rebating the sides to each other and the ends into that formed structure. Best way I can describe it without pictures is that each edge of each piece has a rebate of 1/2 the material thickness removed and all joints have a much greater glued surface than if simply mitred or butted. It also self squares when assembled.
Learn to use a router is the strongest advice I'd give, good luck.
, exactly, don't like blood stains in the mdf.Op, forgot to add, the router with an edge trimmer makes veneering so much easier too.
Even if/when you get a table saw don’t trust the inclinometer it comes with. I made the mistake of trusting my friends very nice Festool table saw with some 45deg mitres using the indicator on the saw - no dice. You need something more accurate.
If you are tossing up on flashing for a table saw do it now not after the nth time you think “a table saw would really help right about now!”
Depending where you live it might be possible to hire workshop time or join a makers studio?
Like others have said on this thread - there are plenty of folk turning out beautiful hifi furniture and they make it look easy. They either have the full workshop and/or are experienced artisans.
Don’t give up. I haven’t and so far all I’ve produced is some finely made firewood.
Last edited:
I concur with the post about talking with the guy/gal that would be doing the work for you and offering something extra for a job well done, we all like that no matter the level of income etc.
In my early 20's over half a lifetime ago I had not the means of tools to saw up my first diy cab which was a dual sealed 10" sub box for car audio. I chatted with the fellow who would be working the saw at a typical small chain store and showed him my plans. I mentioned that the cuts need to be exact and asked him to do the work when he had the time rather than right then and there etc. Also I asked him what beverage he enjoyed and promptly noted I'd be off to get him a case of his favorite liquid refreshment ( a case of beer in Canada is 12 beer). Anyhow he called me up when all the work was done re my plans and every cut was exact on the money, even though with my sealed sub plans there was room for errors. Best extra $20 or so at the time to spend imo to pay some respect to the worker doing what I had not the means to do re tools and space etc.
In my early 20's over half a lifetime ago I had not the means of tools to saw up my first diy cab which was a dual sealed 10" sub box for car audio. I chatted with the fellow who would be working the saw at a typical small chain store and showed him my plans. I mentioned that the cuts need to be exact and asked him to do the work when he had the time rather than right then and there etc. Also I asked him what beverage he enjoyed and promptly noted I'd be off to get him a case of his favorite liquid refreshment ( a case of beer in Canada is 12 beer). Anyhow he called me up when all the work was done re my plans and every cut was exact on the money, even though with my sealed sub plans there was room for errors. Best extra $20 or so at the time to spend imo to pay some respect to the worker doing what I had not the means to do re tools and space etc.
Last edited:
I feel fairly proficient with a table saw and have a Incra sliding miter table to go with mine.
But my saw of choice has overwhelmingly become a track saw....this tool has completely changed my cabinetry...especially for larger boxes.
Long cuts, bevels, miters...I love it. About the only time I use the table saw anymore is for small repetitive pieces.
You can make a work table to cut on, by laying a piece of reasonably stout plywood sheeting on some sawhorses, and then put a sheet of rigid foam insulation on the plywood.
Then the track saw blade can cut through your material into the sacrificial foam insulation.
Makes a hell of a fine work setup.
I use a makita...Makita SP6000J1 6-1/2-Inch Plunge Circular Saw with Guide Rail - Power Circular Saws - Amazon.com
I'm sure there are alot of good brands...
But my saw of choice has overwhelmingly become a track saw....this tool has completely changed my cabinetry...especially for larger boxes.
Long cuts, bevels, miters...I love it. About the only time I use the table saw anymore is for small repetitive pieces.
You can make a work table to cut on, by laying a piece of reasonably stout plywood sheeting on some sawhorses, and then put a sheet of rigid foam insulation on the plywood.
Then the track saw blade can cut through your material into the sacrificial foam insulation.
Makes a hell of a fine work setup.
I use a makita...Makita SP6000J1 6-1/2-Inch Plunge Circular Saw with Guide Rail - Power Circular Saws - Amazon.com
I'm sure there are alot of good brands...
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.