I think its time to upgrade my speakers. I really like what is being said of the Alpair A12p. I want to keep the relative high efficiency of 92db but also will have the issue of BSC.
I think I want to double up the drivers. Go with 2x A12p per channel. Roll off the lower driver with an inductor at around baffle step frequency.
any problems with this? or should I just go with the smaller Alpair on top?
Also, should they be physically separated with their own ported enclosure?
Currently my setup is a Fostex 167e with a Eminence Alpha 15a. OB.
Thank you in advance for any suggestions.
I think I want to double up the drivers. Go with 2x A12p per channel. Roll off the lower driver with an inductor at around baffle step frequency.
any problems with this? or should I just go with the smaller Alpair on top?
Also, should they be physically separated with their own ported enclosure?
Currently my setup is a Fostex 167e with a Eminence Alpha 15a. OB.
Thank you in advance for any suggestions.
Well.........
Theoretical baffle step is 4560 / width baffle in inches.
And a speaker's impedence usually climbs unlike a resistor unless the speaker has a copper cap.
You can try ballpark inductor value then vary it untill you find a value you like.
There may be cheaper alternatives for 92db.....
Theoretical baffle step is 4560 / width baffle in inches.
And a speaker's impedence usually climbs unlike a resistor unless the speaker has a copper cap.
You can try ballpark inductor value then vary it untill you find a value you like.
There may be cheaper alternatives for 92db.....
The 12P has copper plating in the motor. Many / most MA drivers do, although they've never bothered mentioning it. 
Hence the relatively modest impedance rise in the HF.
Depending on where you position the speakers along with the enclosure design, baffle step may or may not be a significant issue. If you want to run a pair, then they can share the same volume without any real issue, although you can divide it up if you feel like it. Depends on the sort of box you're planning on making. A twin 12P setup in vented or a hybrid sealed / vented arrangement will sound very different to a 167 + Alpha 15 in presentation terms for obvious reasons, so as as has been noted, suggestions will depend on what you're aiming to achieve. The 12P is a remarkable driver in many ways & technically superior to the 167 (which I've always been fond of), but for recommendations on use, we need to know more about what you need.
Hence the relatively modest impedance rise in the HF. Depending on where you position the speakers along with the enclosure design, baffle step may or may not be a significant issue. If you want to run a pair, then they can share the same volume without any real issue, although you can divide it up if you feel like it. Depends on the sort of box you're planning on making. A twin 12P setup in vented or a hybrid sealed / vented arrangement will sound very different to a 167 + Alpha 15 in presentation terms for obvious reasons, so as as has been noted, suggestions will depend on what you're aiming to achieve. The 12P is a remarkable driver in many ways & technically superior to the 167 (which I've always been fond of), but for recommendations on use, we need to know more about what you need.
There are 4 ways to connect the drivers. How you do it has an affect on the speaker’s output. 2 in parallel, one rolled off with an inductor, gives a +6dB lift below its turnover f(BS) (with a voltage amp). Rarely do you need a full 6dB.
I like series hookup in a speaker that deals with BS in other ways.
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/downloads/Dual-Driver-Wiring.pdf
And if you can get far enuff away, 2 drivers can both be run FR. The worry is HF combing.
Going to dual A10p they’d be that much closer and push combing issues higher in frequency and let you sit closer. You’d loss about 1 dB in sensitivity. You’d give up the greater amount of air movement potential of the 2 A12p. But you’d gain in sonics IMO.
2 12pw is a different question. Add a midTweeter and go to town.
dave
I like series hookup in a speaker that deals with BS in other ways.
http://www.planet10-hifi.com/downloads/Dual-Driver-Wiring.pdf
And if you can get far enuff away, 2 drivers can both be run FR. The worry is HF combing.
Going to dual A10p they’d be that much closer and push combing issues higher in frequency and let you sit closer. You’d loss about 1 dB in sensitivity. You’d give up the greater amount of air movement potential of the 2 A12p. But you’d gain in sonics IMO.
2 12pw is a different question. Add a midTweeter and go to town.
dave
i am growing tired of the OB setup i have now. Really want to go to either a BR or even a BLH. Single driver. Looked at Alpair, TB, Visaton etc.
I just have not upgraded my speakers in awhile and its time for a change. I have heard great things about the Alpair and cost is not too bad.
I just wanted to keep the relative high 92.
I listen to just about everything from hip-hop to classical to jazz etc. My current amp is a PP 6B4G.. maybe 10W or so.
Hope that helps... and thankyou for the comments so far.
I just have not upgraded my speakers in awhile and its time for a change. I have heard great things about the Alpair and cost is not too bad.
I just wanted to keep the relative high 92.
I listen to just about everything from hip-hop to classical to jazz etc. My current amp is a PP 6B4G.. maybe 10W or so.
Hope that helps... and thankyou for the comments so far.
Dave somewhat alluded to this in his prior post, but I’m surprised he didn’t comment that even a single 12PW and mid/tweeter - such as A5.2 or A6m, should one be inclined to stay in the Mark Audio family- could probably deliver wider extension at both ends of the range in a more manageably sized enclosure, and for less money than dual 12Ps. Perhaps I’m in the minority, but I’m less enamoured of the 12P than some -indeed, I prefer the 10P, which does perform quite handily in a BLH such as the FHXL.
As for the power/sensitivity issue, I think you’d find more than a few members here happy with Alpairs and amounts similar to, or even lower than yours .
As for the power/sensitivity issue, I think you’d find more than a few members here happy with Alpairs and amounts similar to, or even lower than yours .
A5.2 is new since the last website update:http://frugal-phile.com/downloads/Alpair5g2.pdf
A6p would give you a bit more efficiency, but not as much as you’d think.
A12p is closer to 91 dB. A10p a but less than a dB.
One could do a stacked set of Frugel-Horn XL to use 2 A10p drivers and not worry much about needing BSC (2 drivers run FR).
dave
A6p would give you a bit more efficiency, but not as much as you’d think.
A12p is closer to 91 dB. A10p a but less than a dB.
One could do a stacked set of Frugel-Horn XL to use 2 A10p drivers and not worry much about needing BSC (2 drivers run FR).
dave
Yeah, the official Mark Audio site is woefully out of date - very long story there. Madisound is the US distributor, and has up to date info on all the models.
A5.2 Markaudio Alpair-5 Gen.2 Grey 3" Full Range
A6M Markaudio Alpair-6M Gold 3.5" Fullrange Gen 2
A5.2 Markaudio Alpair-5 Gen.2 Grey 3" Full Range
A6M Markaudio Alpair-6M Gold 3.5" Fullrange Gen 2
OP, perhaps this type of thing done by Decware/Omega could inspire your dual Alpair driver per cab idea? I saw this awhile ago at their site and it reminded me of the same thing you're talking about.. I have no affiliation other than having once owned a few of their products etc.
Anyhow perhaps this same type of thing could work with the Alpairs you mentioned?
Here's a link: DECWARE Omega Speaker Systems' Super 3 High Output XRS Loudspeaker
Edited to add this link as well : Super 3 High Output XRS – Omega Speaker Systems
Cheers.
Anyhow perhaps this same type of thing could work with the Alpairs you mentioned?
Here's a link: DECWARE Omega Speaker Systems' Super 3 High Output XRS Loudspeaker
Edited to add this link as well : Super 3 High Output XRS – Omega Speaker Systems
Cheers.
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At some point might it be pertinent to ask just how much space will be available for this new system?
Having only limited exposure to OB speaker speaker over the past 15yrs -none of which were particularly salutary, and having lived with constraints on enclosure size for at least 20yrs, I can certainly understand a desire to downsize/simplify.
No doubt there could be numerous topologies in terms of number of drivers per side and complexity of enclosures, but I personally always like to start with “what do I have room for/ can I get away with?”, then I consider drivers, etc. It might sound like a bass-ackward methodology, but it has served me well.
Depending on your age and hearing ability, the A10P, or metal coned A10.3 might not need any help at the top end. If leaning towards a 2 driver system, I’d seriously consider the 12PW, and mid/tweeter of your choice. I built another of Dave’s monolith format MTMs a couple of years ago with 2@A12PW and A7.3, ultimately using an outboard passive XO. Sounded very good indeed
Having only limited exposure to OB speaker speaker over the past 15yrs -none of which were particularly salutary, and having lived with constraints on enclosure size for at least 20yrs, I can certainly understand a desire to downsize/simplify.
No doubt there could be numerous topologies in terms of number of drivers per side and complexity of enclosures, but I personally always like to start with “what do I have room for/ can I get away with?”, then I consider drivers, etc. It might sound like a bass-ackward methodology, but it has served me well.
Depending on your age and hearing ability, the A10P, or metal coned A10.3 might not need any help at the top end. If leaning towards a 2 driver system, I’d seriously consider the 12PW, and mid/tweeter of your choice. I built another of Dave’s monolith format MTMs a couple of years ago with 2@A12PW and A7.3, ultimately using an outboard passive XO. Sounded very good indeed
so i current thinking is dual 12pw and the 7p. Or is there a better driver than the 7p? like the A5.2 ? gold or grey?
90L tuned to around 40hz BR enclosure for the 12pw. other driver probably a sealed.
thoughts are to roll-off one LF driver for BSC and run other one a little higher. Just unsure where to x-over the 12pw to the 7p / A5.2. 10Khz? just a simple series crossover.
thoughts on this idea?
p.s. my room is relatively small 14' x 25'. the speakers along the 14' wall pointing down the 25'. listening at about 10-12' away. behind couch is a little exercise / workout area.
90L tuned to around 40hz BR enclosure for the 12pw. other driver probably a sealed.
thoughts are to roll-off one LF driver for BSC and run other one a little higher. Just unsure where to x-over the 12pw to the 7p / A5.2. 10Khz? just a simple series crossover.
thoughts on this idea?
p.s. my room is relatively small 14' x 25'. the speakers along the 14' wall pointing down the 25'. listening at about 10-12' away. behind couch is a little exercise / workout area.
In the MTM pictured, the 2 A12PWs shared an MLTL, with the A7.3 in a separate tapered rear vented TL -Dave could provide the details. This is a formula that has worked quite well on a couple of builds. The specific crossover was not something simple, but designed by someone with quite a few years of experience using Linearx LMS and LEAP software. The resulting passive design was to my ears superior to both Onkyo receiver’s digital bi-amping function, and a home-made 4 channel digital amp with buffered PLLXO. Perhaps a minidsp could offer additional flexibility, but I wanted to keep things somewhat simple.
No doubt the format could work with other sizes or makes of FR drivers as mid-tweets, or even just a single woofer; the A12PW is quite a decent performer - just ask Bernie Foucher.
If not obvious, the A12PWs in above system are not stock - the paper readily accepts tints as part of Dave’s tweaking treatment, and the blackish color went rather well with the silver/grey A7.3.
Never been able to hear a difference between the two colours of the metal drivers, but paper and metals in the same size are not the same. Funny thing is the combination of these two materials worked very well, but the A7P paper, not quite as much.
No doubt the format could work with other sizes or makes of FR drivers as mid-tweets, or even just a single woofer; the A12PW is quite a decent performer - just ask Bernie Foucher.
If not obvious, the A12PWs in above system are not stock - the paper readily accepts tints as part of Dave’s tweaking treatment, and the blackish color went rather well with the silver/grey A7.3.
Never been able to hear a difference between the two colours of the metal drivers, but paper and metals in the same size are not the same. Funny thing is the combination of these two materials worked very well, but the A7P paper, not quite as much.
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also BLH, double horns
Hello,
look my double horns Posaune, Kangling, DH-SAT-XL,
the invers driver must not be a Mark Audio there are so many other solution,
advantage: best IMP, lowest membran movement, impuls compensation, reducing K2,
nearly omni without HT.
Hello,
look my double horns Posaune, Kangling, DH-SAT-XL,
the invers driver must not be a Mark Audio there are so many other solution,
advantage: best IMP, lowest membran movement, impuls compensation, reducing K2,
nearly omni without HT.
Attachments
We originally put A7p into the MTM. I would rank A7.3/6.2/5.2 ahead of it. A10p/10.3 too.
dave
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