Asking for personal opinion. My GF has put her foot down, and pointed finger, NO MORE SPEAKERS! BUt, But honey, they are for grandkids!? I build for them and one extra for me or to compare designs. SO, I want to build one more, full range for desktop computer.
I listen to all genre, play them too loud -according to GF, I listen more to classic Jazz vocals, blues, classic rock, and new pop sound (to keep up with the grand kids).
if you could only have one pair, which would you choose and why? Cost less than $200 for drivers pair, preferably less than $100. Especially if the extra $ only gets minimum improvements.
If had read in-nauseum about all the full rangers in 3"-4" size and am leaning toward the Alpair 7.3 or the pluvial 7, not stuck on MA drivers though, just seams to be good press.
I have built many different speaker designs, Zaph best full range with hivi b3 both round and square, bargain mini with mcm4" and tweeter, his commercial 5" woofer center and two of the WT smalls for the mains, Paul Carmody's amiga in small bookshelf size, and many others.
I would like to for amazing soundstage, dispersion, separation of instruments, clear non shouty vocals and horns, tight as possible bass.
I will drive them with either tda7498 or lm1875 amps from china, and computer as source. I would prefer small size and elevated to ear height so mini towers probly, golden ratio is considered but taller and not so wide if that is possible.
So what would you build for the last and final project? (for the grandkids tho)
one last thing, I prefer tight bass to bloated boomy bass, I am building two 8" subs with dvc Daytons-one is trisca with 2 pr, one is single sealed for comparison (probably mine) to do the bass, tight! thanks-remember this is your last build and I do want your opinion
I listen to all genre, play them too loud -according to GF, I listen more to classic Jazz vocals, blues, classic rock, and new pop sound (to keep up with the grand kids).
if you could only have one pair, which would you choose and why? Cost less than $200 for drivers pair, preferably less than $100. Especially if the extra $ only gets minimum improvements.
If had read in-nauseum about all the full rangers in 3"-4" size and am leaning toward the Alpair 7.3 or the pluvial 7, not stuck on MA drivers though, just seams to be good press.
I have built many different speaker designs, Zaph best full range with hivi b3 both round and square, bargain mini with mcm4" and tweeter, his commercial 5" woofer center and two of the WT smalls for the mains, Paul Carmody's amiga in small bookshelf size, and many others.
I would like to for amazing soundstage, dispersion, separation of instruments, clear non shouty vocals and horns, tight as possible bass.
I will drive them with either tda7498 or lm1875 amps from china, and computer as source. I would prefer small size and elevated to ear height so mini towers probly, golden ratio is considered but taller and not so wide if that is possible.
So what would you build for the last and final project? (for the grandkids tho)
one last thing, I prefer tight bass to bloated boomy bass, I am building two 8" subs with dvc Daytons-one is trisca with 2 pr, one is single sealed for comparison (probably mine) to do the bass, tight! thanks-remember this is your last build and I do want your opinion
I prefer airy highs to a more fuller sound to a point. Don't want simblant sound, or shouty especially in the 2k-3.5k region! actually hurts my ears! that hivi was that way without zaphs filter.
1) for fostex FF125 or FF105wk in Big factory br. I prefer smaller tha better tho, current prices good $62.50, $54.70 ea from Madisound
thanks
1) for fostex FF125 or FF105wk in Big factory br. I prefer smaller tha better tho, current prices good $62.50, $54.70 ea from Madisound
thanks
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0.53x mini Karlsonator with dual 3FE25-16 wired in parallel. Great soundstage. 97dB sensitivity and $38 in drivers per speaker.
Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FD's
Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FD's
I recently used a MA Pluvia 7 in a Cornu horn and was pretty impressed how nice it sounded for the money. Nice mids and highs, surprisingly good detail. It would probably sound great in a nice box. Planet 10(Dave) and others have lots of experience in this realm and can offer valuable guidance.
That was what i was thinking of recommending before i got to your sentence quoted above.
I really like the new Pluvia as it is very much voiced to be similar to the Alpair 7.3 (my favorite). The Alpair has better DDR (Downward Dynamic Range/ie ability to reproduce small detail if on the source) but you need to have sufficiently good stuff in front (DAC/amp) to realize the difference, and the source material. The P7 has more bass potential (ie can go lower), and has a tougher cone (less suseptible to grandchild fingers). Nearfield the bass might not be as important.
Both fit into a 4.7 litre miniOnken (millSize box), optimum for the A7.3 is 9 litres (a narrow/deep CGR might fit on your desk), the P7 is optimum in 13 litres (it will fit into a 9 litre CGR, and the 13 litre CGR might be the same story).
dave
heard alot about them
Hi X, I haave read quite a bunch of your post regarding foam core and the .xx karlsonators et al. SO, I bought some 10 boards and built several foam core designs, including a very small karlsonator. I found that they vibrated all over-once vibrated off my work bench! I didn't hear solid bass from them. It would improve if I pressed something stiff against the sides. I then set it on the garage floor and stood back some 10 feet and the karsonator did have a very different sound than conventional speakers I had built-but I thought it sounded weird? I can't describe it but like it had an echo or something? Like if you sing into a empty hard faced room? Might have been floor bounce, or reverberation from box vibration? I can't remember the very small driver I tried it with but I scraped it-probably too soon without trying to mess with it more tho? I did build a small corona horn about 13 inches square if I remember? Even bought some cheap used computer speakers for the 2" drivers. THat was very pleasing sound and produced some many smiles from me! I put them with a lunch money amp and my young grandson has them hanging in his bedroom. I covered them in some polar fleece sports cloth. Amazing how much the corona got out of those diminutive drivers-even mellow bass! Maybe if the karlsonators where made from more rigid material it might change? It was very cool to be able to mock-up from foam board in a few hours but I don't think it really was a good representation of some of the designs I tried it on? FH3 was one of them I think? it was a few years ago? thanks very much for the idea. so if you had just one that you could build for the rest of your life for this computer application it would be as you suggested- 2x 3FE25-16 in a 0.53x Karlsonator ? interesting
I love your side ported fonken designs
when you say "optimum" for a given driver, what is your criteria for optimum? It seams the opti is quite bigger than what they will "work" in. My experience is that excursion limits are a big problem with these small fr drivers. If you go bigger- then they can play lower but don't you run out of xmax sooner as well? So they distort earlier at lesser volume than a smaller box and/or even a sealed alignment? Or, does opti mean that the complete sound of the driver improves not just the bass? Sort of everything smoothed out and synergistic? Would I need lowest f3 if using a subwoofer? Does it help with integration? I don't like it when I can tell the bass is coming from subwoofer, I think it is magic when the small mains sound as if they are playing all the spectrum! I like it even better when I can't localized any of the speakers and sound is out in front of me between the speakers-but seldom have I been so lucky to hear it! SO same question with you---your last build forever and ever under $200? THe Alpair 7.3 in a Fonken?
Thanks for stepping in David. It is your posts all over the internet that have me almost ready to pull trigger on this. I have questions tho if I may?
when you say "optimum" for a given driver, what is your criteria for optimum? It seams the opti is quite bigger than what they will "work" in. My experience is that excursion limits are a big problem with these small fr drivers. If you go bigger- then they can play lower but don't you run out of xmax sooner as well? So they distort earlier at lesser volume than a smaller box and/or even a sealed alignment? Or, does opti mean that the complete sound of the driver improves not just the bass? Sort of everything smoothed out and synergistic? Would I need lowest f3 if using a subwoofer? Does it help with integration? I don't like it when I can tell the bass is coming from subwoofer, I think it is magic when the small mains sound as if they are playing all the spectrum! I like it even better when I can't localized any of the speakers and sound is out in front of me between the speakers-but seldom have I been so lucky to hear it! SO same question with you---your last build forever and ever under $200? THe Alpair 7.3 in a Fonken?
sorry to be so hard assed about this but my GF is serious! SHe has threatened to throw everything out-including me! I have a chance to slip in one more build, just one last one..............that's why I am having such a hard time deciding, so hard! Quality is the thing for me, I have tasted true hifi when I bought and heard a $70 IEM from soundmagic! now I have to hit it on the head with this last build.
By optimum i mean the largest box that satisfies the criterion needed for the miniOnken-style alignment (when the 1st derivative or the FR starts crossing zero more than once, the box is too big). This gives the lowest bass and, usually, due to the larger volume, the most openess… while very good the samller boxes do sound a bit les open. For instance, probably the best driver for the 4.7 litre milliSize box is the A6.2p (and the FF105wk close behind), as it turns out 4.7 litre is near the optimum volme for these drivers.
I have never considered the excursion issue, and have not really run into it, perhaps i never listen that loud, or being sensitive to it, turn things down, usually something that most often happens when i hear the amps run out of power (or attribute it to that)
No.
To expand on F3, Toole shows that it is usful when talking about filters and filter theory, but with the earr/brain F6 and F10 are much more useful indicators.
Wider response beyond the XO always helps with integration, but with a subwoofer the reach of the satelitte is much less important than the HF performance of the woofer.
And probably more of an issue with the woofer most often placed under the desk in a near-field application. Sensitivity is somewhat user specific, you probably want to targert 80-100 Hz, the small box will just reach this with the smaller drivers, with the 2 under consideration it is not.
Also playing into the situation is whether the woofer will be “feathered into the natural response of the sate little (REL-style i call it) or you put a hi-pass on them. Adding a hi-pass makes things more complicated but also relieves the sat of some of the heavy lifting by relieveing them of bass duty. A PLLXO is my favorite here… cheap, simple, and no added electronic haze.
I am getting 2 of the new ACA to use to biamp (A7.3eN + twin SDX7eN) and will be socketing the input cap so i can substitute a smaller cap so as to creat ethe simpliest possible PLLXO.
Something we really value as well. The Trapezoid miniOnken exist because of their lower diffraction signature and ability to disappear, but placement on a desktop with a computer monitor in-between will impede this goal.
Under $200, yes. The box would be a dMar-Ken7.3. The CGR variant easiest to build and the narrow version most likely to fit on the desk, better the rectangular full-on dMar-Ken7.3R (althou i don’t know that tte R suffix has made it to the drawings yet), and the trapezoidal dMar-Ken7.3T the hardest to build, but the best, likely not of benefit on the desk, but when you lift it out to try it in the main system… the cross-section of th eplan view being a polygonal simplification of a tear-drop shape — a shape shown in applications as wide ranging as cars to speakers to have lowest drag/diffraction. There is also a mediumWide trapezoid variant (i can’t remember if i have drawn it, but we certainly haven’t built one yet), that may have an edge in openess due to a greater distice to the sides on the inside.
Budget not limited, the EnABLed A73 or the MAOP version (i have these drivers now, and plan to EnABL them sometime after Mark gets mne a reject cone to experiemtn on 1st). Same trapezoid box.
dave
Yes, i got that, and also an inspiration for the shield i posted.
I liked that show.
BTW, a vector pdf of the file is available for those wanting to make t-shirts.
dave
No pictures of dMar-Ken7.3T but here is one of a pair of µFonkenSET made in Minnesota.
Lots of pics here: miniOnken/Fonken gallery pictures only
The full planset subscription for the A7x costs a token amount of money. Currently some 50+ pages long (and always growing), Details here: planet10-hifi miniOnken Plan-Set Subscriptions
email me directly.
dave
Lots of pics here: miniOnken/Fonken gallery pictures only
The full planset subscription for the A7x costs a token amount of money. Currently some 50+ pages long (and always growing), Details here: planet10-hifi miniOnken Plan-Set Subscriptions
email me directly.
dave
If you are willing to use a subwoofer to provide the bass, I'd highly recommend Tang-band TB W5-2143 drivers. Tang Band W5-2143 5" Paper Cone Full Range Driver 8 Ohm
If used with a subwoofer, the TB drivers can be put into sealed boxes to reduce their footprints. The sealed boxes do not have to be much bigger than those using 3" drivers in vented boxes.
I've been playing with full-range drivers for 20 years (how time flies!), and I have owned many pairs and heard even more. The W5-2143 drivers have been the most "satisfying" pair I've owned. Right now the W5-2143 drivers are in relatively small boxes sitting on bass modules I built many years ago for another project, and crossed at 200Hz. This combination sounds surprisingly good, and interestingly does not lose too much in terms of weight and authority when compared to my main speakers which are a pair of Speakerlab K 3-way horn-loaded speakers (clones of Klipschorns).
Every full-range driver presents a set of compromises. To my ears the W5-2143 strikes a good balance. Smaller fullrangers might sound more airy and detailed but could sound wimpy, while larger fullrangers tend to have issues in the treble and smoothness of frequency response.
Cheers,
Kurt
If used with a subwoofer, the TB drivers can be put into sealed boxes to reduce their footprints. The sealed boxes do not have to be much bigger than those using 3" drivers in vented boxes.
I've been playing with full-range drivers for 20 years (how time flies!), and I have owned many pairs and heard even more. The W5-2143 drivers have been the most "satisfying" pair I've owned. Right now the W5-2143 drivers are in relatively small boxes sitting on bass modules I built many years ago for another project, and crossed at 200Hz. This combination sounds surprisingly good, and interestingly does not lose too much in terms of weight and authority when compared to my main speakers which are a pair of Speakerlab K 3-way horn-loaded speakers (clones of Klipschorns).
Every full-range driver presents a set of compromises. To my ears the W5-2143 strikes a good balance. Smaller fullrangers might sound more airy and detailed but could sound wimpy, while larger fullrangers tend to have issues in the treble and smoothness of frequency response.
Cheers,
Kurt
Optimal sealed box is just over 7 litres, and the natural roll-off could be used as 2 poles in a filter to a woofer at just over 100 Hz. Perhaps a biy high for this application and certainly too high for most use with a HP filter.
Go too small and you get early feed-thru the cone from the back which decreases openness. The typical 2.5 litre for a 3” has a Q over 1.1 and a 2 dB bump at 200 Hz (simmed).
dave
With foam core, any span over 3in needs bracing inside to reduce vibration. Air leaks can also be cause of lack of bass in a TL.
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