8" Full Range driver for use in 2 way system

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Hi, I have been using Magneplanars and ribbon tweeters for over 25 years, and am totally out of touch with cone speaker systems. But I have recently retired, and with a bit of time on my hand am looking at having some fun.

I have been inspired by a colleague who has just put together a new speaker system with 2 Eminence Beta 15s in a OB U frame and one EV horn per channel. I have been helping design crossovers and EQ for the drooping horn response and in return he will help me build up my own speakers. Now I don't want to build exactly what he has done and I am keen to try out a diy design based on PureAudio Project

Trio15TB Open Baffle Speakers – PureAudioProject

I can get the Eminence drivers locally at a good price but my question is - what is the best FR driver to use. One could reasonably assume that PAP have done their homework and that the TB W8 1808 is perfect in this application but with my lack of experience with any sort of cones I am all ears to the great community we have here.

PAP also use Voxativ drivers in their upmarket model but these are getting pretty expensive (USD 2,200 per pair for the bottom of range driver!!). I have also had a quick look through the full range forum and someone said that AER drivers are the best. Well at Euro 4,000 per driver :eek: they must be freaking marvellous.

Now as I intend to cross over around 500 Herts, I am not after a full range with the best low end. Just the opposite. I am after an 8" driver with the best top end. And of course I will need high sensitivity (minimum 93dB) to match Eminence drivers.

I am obviously not going to be able to audition multiple drivers so unless there is a clearly better alternative than the Tang Band then I will stick with this.

Any thoughts? Thanks for your help.
 
At 500 hz, your options include smaller drivers for better high end and better dispersion.

Thanks for chiming in Cal. Better high end and better dispertion would be a good thing 😉 . Here is a bit more info on target design and then I would appreciate your thoughts on a nice 6" driver.

1. Crossover is intended to be 1st order. Right now I biamp and use passive line level crossover handing over from Magneplanar tympany panels to home made ribbon at 666Hertz. I want to keep this arrangement and the good thing is that its easy to experiment with different crossover points .
2. I am now looking at FaitalPro 15PR400 woofer. Trols Graveson uses this in his latest OB15 system. This has a smooth response out to 4k, much better response than Eminence drivers, so this should allow me to push crossover up a bit and use 6" FR driver as you suggest. Qts of this driver is around 0.32 so in an OB I may need ro add some low end EQ but this is not a problem.
3. My existing tympany/ ribbon system is 900mm wide, I expect to build an OB baffle just as wide and this will minimise OB bass roll off.
4. Every speaker syatem is a set of compromises. My key compromise are
A. I want to keep crossover as low as possible so that the system looks like a FR driver with just a little help in the bass.
B. I want the FR driver small enough to deliver good hf extension and dispersion. I dont want to build this then think - I need a tweeter.

So back to your point - given this, what are your thoughts on a good 6" FR driver?

Thanks Cal,
Hazard
 
IMHO, I'd be looking at an Alpair 10 and then a good single 15" per side.

I ran my Beyma 15P1200Nd OB for a short while (just as a messing around project) and EQ'd them flat down to 25Hz, which took 27dB of boost and the amplifier power to match. The result, however, was the best low end I've ever heard. Room modes were basically cut out, and it sounded wonderful. When cranked up, cone excursion was hitting 30mm peak-to-peak, but they're good drivers and can take that sort of (ab)use.
The 15" midbass drivers like the Eminence Beta and Faital you've mentioned wouldn't manage to go that low, but would probably manage 40Hz just fine.

My dream system would probably be a pair of those Beymas a side with a good full-range unit, but they'd be quite imposing in a UK living room.

Chris
 
I agree on the 1808, i was mad spending that much for the bump in the 1.5-3.5khz range. The 2145 I've wanted to play with at $100, but i remember an 8" basically was 2 person wide dispersion at 10', not an option for me.

Desiring the bass (not rumble) presentation of my double 15"/horn crossing at 750hz, i am trying to get more bass from my 6db 10" wide range (basically a 2-way).

Most of the 15's on 2' open baffle need 12db low pass to overcome roll off. I had 2' deep wings with a 12" full range, no bass. The beyma looks nice, they aren't cheap, for the money I'd rather try to find a 15 with shorting rings since I'd run up maybe 500hz. To me it is just another 15 with 9.5mm xmax. Most drivers don't get much louder past 100 watts, but the beyma went to the effort to get around that, but I'd rather just get more drivers.

I think double 15's running high (300hz or more) would sound fun (slam ?).
With a 6db crossover, i don't think where you cross would be an issue.
I agree a smaller driver, but then you may fry it at higher volumes, it is a toss up.
Don't worry about qts on the full ranger, even on an infinite baffle it would roll off at fs / qts, and you will be crossing way above that.


Good luck and stay posted.
 
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Cal is right. I have had the TB W8-1808 thru here and find it OK, but not great and overpriced. Look at the Mark Audio Alpair 10.3/10p (better at a lower price)or if you are on a tighter budget the Pluvia 7 (same sort of DDR (detail capability) but less coloured.

dave
Thanks Dave. Mark Audio is nearly half price (USD110) compared to TB W8 (USD210) (based on Madisound and PE prices). I don't doubt your assessment of their relative merits but I tempted to ask - if I stick to my original budget is there something better than both the TB and MA drivers? Or even if I spend a bit more? I obviously can't pay stupid prices (Voxativ etc) and I don't think that need to spend USD1,000 to get a great driver.
 
IMHO, I'd be looking at an Alpair 10 and then a good single 15" per side.

I ran my Beyma 15P1200Nd OB for a short while (just as a messing around project) and EQ'd them flat down to 25Hz, which took 27dB of boost and the amplifier power to match. The result, however, was the best low end I've ever heard. Room modes were basically cut out, and it sounded wonderful. When cranked up, cone excursion was hitting 30mm peak-to-peak, but they're good drivers and can take that sort of (ab)use.
The 15" midbass drivers like the Eminence Beta and Faital you've mentioned wouldn't manage to go that low, but would probably manage 40Hz just fine.

My dream system would probably be a pair of those Beymas a side with a good full-range unit, but they'd be quite imposing in a UK living room.

Chris
Hi Chris, that Beyma driver looks like a beast - but there doesn't appear to be a downunder distributer, if I were to import these the price would be 3x higher than FaitalPro - so sadly these are off the agenda.
I agree on the 1808, i was mad spending that much for the bump in the 1.5-3.5khz range. The 2145 I've wanted to play with at $100, but i remember an 8" basically was 2 person wide dispersion at 10', not an option for me.

Desiring the bass (not rumble) presentation of my double 15"/horn crossing at 750hz, i am trying to get more bass from my 6db 10" wide range (basically a 2-way).

Most of the 15's on 2' open baffle need 12db low pass to overcome roll off. I had 2' deep wings with a 12" full range, no bass. The beyma looks nice, they aren't cheap, for the money I'd rather try to find a 15 with shorting rings since I'd run up maybe 500hz. To me it is just another 15 with 9.5mm xmax. Most drivers don't get much louder past 100 watts, but the beyma went to the effort to get around that, but I'd rather just get more drivers.

I think double 15's running high (300hz or more) would sound fun (slam ?).
With a 6db crossover, i don't think where you cross would be an issue.
I agree a smaller driver, but then you may fry it at higher volumes, it is a toss up.
Don't worry about qts on the full ranger, even on an infinite baffle it would roll off at fs / qts, and you will be crossing way above that.


Good luck and stay posted.
Thanks Norman, the TB 2145 loks OK on paper and much cheaper than the 1808 (ferrite vs neo I guess). But I get the point the point about dispersion. However I just measured the distance from my couch to the speakers - its 14 ft. Does that make dispersion less of an issue? (and if it does help - I better not move house again).
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
I don’t play much in really expensive drivers so can’t comment on the growing range of $400+ each drivers that are popping up in the ”lowther” niche. The Mark Audios are really good value for the dollar.

AER, Voxativ, Sonindo, Cube are some of the new players in the 6-8” with whizzers niche. The SAL (sold exclusivly at the diyAudio store) is aimed specifically at OBs. Also the big Alnico SEAs, and a recently mentioned Audax. but i haven’t heard any of these ones.

I personally think if you can get away without whizzers…

The SEAs FA22, and Visaton B200 (really needs phase plugs, has no whizzer) are ones i have heard that i like. The Betsys aren’t bad. The FA22 & Betsy reasonably priced members of the Lowther niche. The Fostex FE206 fits in the niche as well, but i think of it more in a BIG horn like Vulcan.

And to toot my own horn, you could consider an EnABLed version of the A10p. Treatment & matching to make them even better.

A10PeN.jpg


EnABLing is something that can be done to any of these drivers… and can be diyed, but you really need practise on some less critical drivers. All you need to know is here on the forum and Bud & i are happy to coach. All the drivers i’ve heard ended up modified and better than can be had off the shelf.

And if the A10p is mentioned, the A10.3 (metal cone version) should be mentioned, and the Jordan Eikona (i’ve not heard). Ted Jordan’s last efforts, and reportedly very good, it would have to be REALLY good to outperform the A10.3 which is its closest competitor. To put this in perspective, Mark Fenlon (the Mark in Mark Audio) was Ted’s apprentice for 5 years so they came from the same DNA.

I’m sure i have missed some candidates. Right the Audio Nirvanas. The every small sample i’ve heard were either crap or had potential (but overpriced).

That should give you some food for thot.

Also, take the sensitivity ratings with a grain of salt. The W8-1808 for instance is ~91 dB, the Visaton B200, 90 dB to give a couple examples.

dave
<frugal-phile™>
 
I don’t play much in really expensive drivers so can’t comment on the growing range of $400+ each drivers that are popping up in the ”lowther” niche. The Mark Audios are really good value for the dollar.

AER, Voxativ, Sonindo, Cube are some of the new players in the 6-8” with whizzers niche. The SAL (sold exclusivly at the diyAudio store) is aimed specifically at OBs. Also the big Alnico SEAs, and a recently mentioned Audax. but i haven’t heard any of these ones.

I personally think if you can get away without whizzers…

The SEAs FA22, and Visaton B200 (really needs phase plugs, has no whizzer) are ones i have heard that i like. The Betsys aren’t bad. The FA22 & Betsy reasonably priced members of the Lowther niche. The Fostex FE206 fits in the niche as well, but i think of it more in a BIG horn like Vulcan.

And to toot my own horn, you could consider an EnABLed version of the A10p. Treatment & matching to make them even better.

A10PeN.jpg


EnABLing is something that can be done to any of these drivers… and can be diyed, but you really need practise on some less critical drivers. All you need to know is here on the forum and Bud & i are happy to coach. All the drivers i’ve heard ended up modified and better than can be had off the shelf.

And if the A10p is mentioned, the A10.3 (metal cone version) should be mentioned, and the Jordan Eikona (i’ve not heard). Ted Jordan’s last efforts, and reportedly very good, it would have to be REALLY good to outperform the A10.3 which is its closest competitor. To put this in perspective, Mark Fenlon (the Mark in Mark Audio) was Ted’s apprentice for 5 years so they came from the same DNA.

I’m sure i have missed some candidates. Right the Audio Nirvanas. The every small sample i’ve heard were either crap or had potential (but overpriced).

That should give you some food for thot.

Also, take the sensitivity ratings with a grain of salt. The W8-1808 for instance is ~91 dB, the Visaton B200, 90 dB to give a couple examples.

dave
<frugal-phile™>
Thanks Dave, there's plenty to chew on here. The SAL is a bit out of my price range but then again - most of my electronics designs have been inspired by NP so if they are good enough for him....
 
I am now looking at FaitalPro 15PR400 woofer. Trols Graveson uses this in his latest OB15 system. This has a smooth response out to 4k, much better response than Eminence drivers, so this should allow me to push crossover up a bit and use 6" FR driver as you suggest. Qts of this driver is around 0.32 so in an OB I may need ro add some low end EQ but this is not a problem.

I guess you've noticed that DJ city have them at a good price. They also have the 15HP1060, which costs 50% more, but has shorting rings and a larger Xmax.

what are your thoughts on a good 6" FR driver?
Where in Melbourne are you?

I dunno about good, but some drivers you could listen to before ordering something:

Total Recoil (repair shop, Thornbury) was previously selling their own FR drivers, I think for $800 a pair. On quick appraisal, they looked like basic Lowther clones, and sounded OK. You could get an idea of the FR-with-whizzer sound.

I have a load of drivers and parts including a small collection of wideband drivers (near Edinburgh Gardens). You could get an idea of the FR-with-no-whizzer sound.

I have implemented passive line level crossovers in my bi amp system [...] All calibrated by ear of course. The only tool i have used is a DVM and its no good for measuring SPL. But i think i got it to balance pretty well.

If you (and your colleague) are still calibrating by ear, I could possibly help. I have some test gear, and would like an excuse to hear the Eminence + EV horn system :)
 
I guess you've noticed that DJ city have them at a good price. They also have the 15HP1060, which costs 50% more, but has shorting rings and a larger Xmax.


Where in Melbourne are you?

I dunno about good, but some drivers you could listen to before ordering something:

Total Recoil (repair shop, Thornbury) was previously selling their own FR drivers, I think for $800 a pair. On quick appraisal, they looked like basic Lowther clones, and sounded OK. You could get an idea of the FR-with-whizzer sound.

I have a load of drivers and parts including a small collection of wideband drivers (near Edinburgh Gardens). You could get an idea of the FR-with-no-whizzer sound.



If you (and your colleague) are still calibrating by ear, I could possibly help. I have some test gear, and would like an excuse to hear the Eminence + EV horn system :)

Hi Hollowboy, seems lie we are (were) almost neighbours, I lived in Fitzroy for 7 years before a growing family forced me out to a bark yard and bbq in Eltham. But Edinburgh Gardens is still only a 25min drive down the Eastern....

Thanks for the offer of help, I will send a PM and we can take this off line.
 
Well, since you are ribbon kinda guy, you want to try the Neo planar8 or planar 10? Goes Don to the frequency you speak off...
Thanks I just had a look at these drivers... I am having some trouble reconciling the quoted frequency range for the Neo Planar 10 (150Hz to 6kHz) with the FR graph ... response at 150 Hz is 82 dB, than at 200 Hz its 85 dB then drops back to 83 dB at 250 Hz. This wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for what comes next - from 250Hz to 8.5kHz, responses rises 20dB to 103dB!!! So at a minimum you need a tweeter which is exactly what I don't want, and you have a huge rising response to tame. I am not sure what application would actually suit this driver.

but I am glad that you mentioned this - for I have a pair of BG RD75 tweeters parked in my spare parts room. I bought these around 18 years ago, and used them for over 10 years ago until i built my home made ribbons. So they have been largely forgotten until you reminded me of the BG drivers - what a great idea!! The big BGs are very highly regarded in some circles, and you have now given me an idea for my next project - 4 12" drivers per channel, 2 each side of a BG RD75, 1st order crossovers around 500Hz. My current set up (maggies and ribbons) follows this approach albeit crossover is around 666 Hz in deference to my somewhat more fragile home made ribbons. This gives incredible sound and its my design goal for all my speakers. There are some nice FR speakers around but they are not going to give the SPL and kick that I am now looking for. So I think that I am stuck with a 2way system for now - the big BG can deliver this but the smaller ones are not going to meet design targets.

Thanks, Hazard
 
Wow. Those have been out of production for a while now..

As for the crazy response, the answer is in the text. The speaker drivers were measured without Baffles hence the drop in lower frequency response..

But in any case, use the RD in your store room... Couldn't afford it while it was still available...


Oon
 
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