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Need help with enclosure for Supravox 165-2000EXC
Need help with enclosure for Supravox 165-2000EXC
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Old 15th December 2017, 11:40 PM   #1
Lowrideris is offline Lowrideris
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Default Need help with enclosure for Supravox 165-2000EXC

hello,
i need help with enclosure for Supravox 165-2000EXC (field coil version) or alnico version.
maybe someone here can telme what enclosure to choose?
i need to choose better speaker from these:
165-2000EXC Qts : is 0.616 at 10V DC power 165 EXC SUPRAVOX

165-2000 Qts is : 0.78
165-2000 SUPRAVOX

please help....
supravox has no straight answer what enclosure is good for them. only available schematics is this TQWT
http://www.supravox.fr/kits/tqwt165lb.pdf
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Old 16th December 2017, 01:51 AM   #2
globalplayer is offline globalplayer  Germany
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Qts is too high for ported although EBP calculation suggests ported.
Qts is also a little high for closed.
I would try the TQWT.
Might go lower than the other 2 and probably more precise.
Plus it is more forgiving when driver qts is high.
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Old 16th December 2017, 05:27 AM   #3
GM is offline GM  United States
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Greets!

Supravox 165-2000 EXC looks good in a ~230 L, ~44 Hz MLTL:

H = 152.4 cm
WxD = 1500 cm^2
driver down 64 cm
vent down = 129.5 cm
vent = 300 cm^2 x baffle thickness [19 mm]

All dimensions inside [i.d.].

Line top, one side, back with damping to 'taste', adding some to the other side if more is needed.

165-2000 needs either a large sealed cab [plug the MLTL's vent] or at least a well stuffed ~aperiodic cab [MLTL] or large pipe horn.

GM
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:00 AM   #4
Lowrideris is offline Lowrideris
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thanks,. mltl for me is too big. i live in apartmens 26 m2 room, need something with "normal" floorstanding speaker size.
so best option to try EXC driver with minimum 10 volt power suplly to lower qts, and make supravox sugested enclosure...
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:15 AM   #5
Scottmoose is offline Scottmoose  United Kingdom
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Which isn't exempt from the laws of physics either.

The size of a vented box, whether reflex or QW is dictated by driver Fs, Vas & EM damping (Q), or more accurately, those characteristics largely determine its behaviour in a given volume & tuning. One of the advantages of Novak, Thiele & finally Small's work is that they allowed you to quickly determine a minimum practical box size, i.e. get the most from the least. Unfortunately, they can't change the laws of physics. The Supravox units are quite traditional in design terms (no bad thing) & tend to want a larger cabinet than the 'modern' fashion, like most of the quality classic units up to the late 1960s.

If you really have to have a small box you could try vented, 80 litres tuned to the high 40s. Lightly damped LF rolloff with a bit of additional gain through the mid-upper bass due to the undersized box -that can in some cases be helpful in adding a bit of extra 'slam' to rock, some classical etc. recordings. The box output is fairly narrow band so careful damping would be needed. Otherwise, sealed or leaky sealed it would need to be. 80 litres, with light damping would give you a box Q roughly in the mid 0.7 region.
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Last edited by Scottmoose; 16th December 2017 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:30 AM   #6
Lowrideris is offline Lowrideris
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thank you scottmoose.
supravox sugested tqwt enclosure is about 46.6 Litres. an is made for 165lb driver. but may work and with EXC.
for me bass output is not big problem i can happily live with 60-20000khz region and my neighbors also will be happy
any online TQWT enclosure calculators ? to calculate enclosure size more suitable for this EXC speaker?
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:48 AM   #7
Scottmoose is offline Scottmoose  United Kingdom
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Like the Supravox QW enclosure, they (the online calculators) are best avoided. AFAIK, they all key off Fs & driver size, taking no account for taper for the first, and zero account for driver Fs, Q & Vas in the latter, which actually do have direct relevance to the internal volume of the enclosure, unlike Sd, which does not. You can't get around the laws of physics, however much we'd all like to.

The size appropriate to the Supravox unit is essentially what GM said. That MLTL he designed for you is not big for the sake of it. It's big because that's what it has to be to do the job required of it. Classic style of driver: it wants a big box. The 80 litres I mentioned above would be the absolute minimum I would go to for a vented box of any kind, reflex or QW, and even that is much smaller than ideal for high quality results. I'd prefer another 50 litres on top of that. You could use about 60 litres, sealed, & make the box leaky (drill a load of holes in it & cover with damping) to drop the Q a bit. Probably give you a system Q of about 0.8, which would be ~'OK', but not particularly distinguished. You'd be in the 60Hz - 70Hz region in practice, although it may sound a bit 'strangled'.
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Last edited by Scottmoose; 16th December 2017 at 09:52 AM.
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Old 16th December 2017, 09:59 AM   #8
Lowrideris is offline Lowrideris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GM View Post
Greets!

Supravox 165-2000 EXC looks good in a ~230 L, ~44 Hz MLTL:

H = 152.4 cm
WxD = 1500 cm^2
driver down 64 cm
vent down = 129.5 cm
vent = 300 cm^2 x baffle thickness [19 mm]

All dimensions inside [i.d.].

Line top, one side, back with damping to 'taste', adding some to the other side if more is needed.

165-2000 needs either a large sealed cab [plug the MLTL's vent] or at least a well stuffed ~aperiodic cab [MLTL] or large pipe horn.

GM
maybe you can draw example of this box with measurments for me, im not that good with drawing schematics of enclosure from numbers
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Old 16th December 2017, 04:39 PM   #9
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowrideris View Post
thanks,. mltl for me is too big. i live in apartmens 26 m2 room, need something with "normal" floorstanding speaker size.
so best option to try EXC driver with minimum 10 volt power suplly to lower qts, and make supravox sugested enclosure...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lowrideris View Post
maybe you can draw example of this box with measurments for me, im not that good with drawing schematics of enclosure from numbers
You're welcome!

I used the 10 V specs.

Hmm, 26 m^2 is a plenty big enough room acoustically, but its bass output is way too much for an apartment unless extremely well soundproofed as a stereo pair are theoretically capable of up to nearly 120 dB/m/40 Hz/10 W depending on where they are positioned in the room.

I am not set up to do drawings, just quick sims in Hornresp.

Re smallest cab size; the pioneers didn't need to reproduce anything below ~80 Hz and from long experience designing/building for apartment or similar attached homes, neither do you, though you still need a tuning to at least the mid 40s in room same as they did, though for different reasons.

Anyway, they came to the conclusion that the driver's compliance [Vas] will dictate, determining that a sealed box should raise the driver's Fs by 1.56x, which BTW is the historically correct way to measure the Vas spec, so based on published specs, this equates to Vas/1.44 = 32.36 L net.

Unfortunately, this is too small to make a decent height MLTL, so looking at Scott's 80 L and converting it to a shortened MLTL to be more like Supravox's new Kelia, then rounding down to even numbers gives us a ~77.84 L net.

H = 122 cm
W = 29 cm
D = 22 cm
driver down 25.4 cm, putting the driver/floor distance = 98.5 cm
driver down 42.6 cm, putting the driver/floor distance = 81.3 cm
driver down 51.2 cm, putting the driver/floor distance = 72.7 cm
vent down = 103.7 cm
vent = 300 cm^2 x baffle thickness [19 mm]

Choose the driver/floor height you think will work best for you at the listening position, though with the top most driver location theoretically producing a ~5 dB peak centered at ~100 Hz with a ~40 Hz F10 and ~ 22 Hz F25 where you can't hear/feel it though these numbers theoretically drop ~ a dB or two with each lower driver location and may need extra internal damping if corner loaded.

The small TQWT will perform similar to top most driver location, but with a lot of added 'ripple' [deep notches in the response] unless heavily damped, so from mine and some other forum members experiences, the shorter MLTL is much preferred and no doubt in my mind why Supravox is now offering them.

GM
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Last edited by GM; 16th December 2017 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 16th December 2017, 05:57 PM   #10
Lowrideris is offline Lowrideris
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GM View Post
You're welcome!

I used the 10 V specs.

Hmm, 26 m^2 is a plenty big enough room acoustically, but its bass output is way too much for an apartment unless extremely well soundproofed as a stereo pair are theoretically capable of up to nearly 120 dB/m/40 Hz/10 W depending on where they are positioned in the room.

I am not set up to do drawings, just quick sims in Hornresp.

Re smallest cab size; the pioneers didn't need to reproduce anything below ~80 Hz and from long experience designing/building for apartment or similar attached homes, neither do you, though you still need a tuning to at least the mid 40s in room same as they did, though for different reasons.

Anyway, they came to the conclusion that the driver's compliance [Vas] will dictate, determining that a sealed box should raise the driver's Fs by 1.56x, which BTW is the historically correct way to measure the Vas spec, so based on published specs, this equates to Vas/1.44 = 32.36 L net.

Unfortunately, this is too small to make a decent height MLTL, so looking at Scott's 80 L and converting it to a shortened MLTL to be more like Supravox's new Kelia, then rounding down to even numbers gives us a ~77.84 L net.

H = 122 cm
W = 29 cm
D = 22 cm
driver down 25.4 cm, putting the driver/floor distance = 98.5 cm
driver down 42.6 cm, putting the driver/floor distance = 81.3 cm
driver down 51.2 cm, putting the driver/floor distance = 72.7 cm
vent down = 103.7 cm
vent = 300 cm^2 x baffle thickness [19 mm]

Choose the driver/floor height you think will work best for you at the listening position, though with the top most driver location theoretically producing a ~5 dB peak centered at ~100 Hz with a ~40 Hz F10 and ~ 22 Hz F25 where you can't hear/feel it though these numbers theoretically drop ~ a dB or two with each lower driver location and may need extra internal damping if corner loaded.

The small TQWT will perform similar to top most driver location, but with a lot of added 'ripple' [deep notches in the response] unless heavily damped, so from mine and some other forum members experiences, the shorter MLTL is much preferred and no doubt in my mind why Supravox is now offering them.

GM
supravox sells finished speakers with qts acourd 0.2-0.35 , with higher qts they have no sugestions, what enclosure to use exept OB .
ok i try to make some paper work, and visualize your measurments one more thing. MLTL internals how is made? maybe some photos ? becouse most pictures in web , looks like bass reflex inside, only port an nothing more,exept few bracings inside enclosure. so some picture samples would be nice
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