I get that. I can even likely agree with you for the most part. I also have to take into account is that you listen to a lot of different drivers with different configurations.
I'm sure I am going to like them, and whatever else I manage to get into to with this full range side of things.
I'm not using auto EQ or any room correction. Typically I just use Pure Direct thru my AVR, which is an old Denon 3805, that just happens to have a decent amp section. In the case of the Nola clones, I am using the bass management but not much else.
I'm not a purist and am not really missing, or searching for any lost grails with audio. I've got a decent collection of pretty nice speakers that I rotate in and out of use frequently just for the heck of it. 4, out of the 6 pair I own I built, or, assembled at least. Building/designing tricky things is my day job as well.
The full range aspect of this hobby was my next logical path with speakers. So far, I am pretty intrigued by what I am reading. I'll take the TC9 as entry level. Sitting here listening to Tsuyoshi Yamamoto (piano lounge type music) and these TC9's, as packaged in the Nola clones, are kicking butt with it. It's ridiculous!
I'm not a purist and am not really missing, or searching for any lost grails with audio. I've got a decent collection of pretty nice speakers that I rotate in and out of use frequently just for the heck of it. 4, out of the 6 pair I own I built, or, assembled at least. Building/designing tricky things is my day job as well.
The full range aspect of this hobby was my next logical path with speakers. So far, I am pretty intrigued by what I am reading. I'll take the TC9 as entry level. Sitting here listening to Tsuyoshi Yamamoto (piano lounge type music) and these TC9's, as packaged in the Nola clones, are kicking butt with it. It's ridiculous!
I have seen the idea the ability to reproduce small detail could relate to the deviations from linearity at low levels of signal. Perhaps it is possible to quantify it by comparing the response curves at 40-50-60-70-80 db, like Soundstage! does to find the effects of compression at high levels?
Fine enough TC9 is not your cup of tea but please stop subjective non documented conclusions for it, or start share and document data for your own favorites.
If we run them A10.3 out of box they have all technical reasons against them to make any conclusions on low level detail, but guess if MrBoat in the end happen prefer his TC9 you just tell they aren't broken in yet or system is not good enough even most system devices should be more than able to cover pass band that full range driver are capable of.
Its a mystery why continue talk low level details 40-50dB down when most music material is in 7-12dB dynamic range area and few into 20dB area. Below is how minimum devices behaves when responses are non smooth verse smooth and that is a story about start attack and decay at the right time at the right level all over the frq spectra and if non smooth somewhere especially with high Q deviations its distortion and output is not true to input and attack and decays will be manipulated in time domain so harmonics will not follow the true note started by instruments, this manipulation is obvious looking black line showing peak energy time in wavelet plot for A10.3 how its out of box response is far from smooth and optimal, of course this Alpair driver can be response corrected but guess most don't have gear to smooth its metal cone top end and the huge dip around 680Hz is as far i know non-repairable because its origin is same distance diffraction when using under hung surround.
Think to love out of box sound from this driver is no problem but to use it as a reference system or comparison of low level details then it will need heavy correction somewhere in system.
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I'm pretty easy to please. I have Jeff Bagby's Continuums, diysounds Fusion-12 Tempests, JBL S312 and LSR305's and can manage great listening from them as well.
For now, I have these NB clones about perfect with the sub and they are going to be tough to beat without being super critical. All the lightest percussion bits are coming through to what would be hard to imagine any better without being overbearing. I honestly can't hear room for a tweeter in this arrangement. I reckon for the fact that a sub is in the equation doesn't lend any real credence to the TC9 on it's own, but this has to be one of the better bangs for my buck I have gotten in this hobby.
As far as the Alpair 10.3, I saw a video of a pair playing online, and even discounting what limitations secondhand presentations of speakers can manage to amount to as such, I could tell the potential of that driver, which is what prompted me to buy them even before diving in here. I was just going to put them in a simple BR cabinet and see what I could squeeze out of them. It just seemed like a good place to start in FR. I'm betting I end up liking this driver.
For now, I have these NB clones about perfect with the sub and they are going to be tough to beat without being super critical. All the lightest percussion bits are coming through to what would be hard to imagine any better without being overbearing. I honestly can't hear room for a tweeter in this arrangement. I reckon for the fact that a sub is in the equation doesn't lend any real credence to the TC9 on it's own, but this has to be one of the better bangs for my buck I have gotten in this hobby.
As far as the Alpair 10.3, I saw a video of a pair playing online, and even discounting what limitations secondhand presentations of speakers can manage to amount to as such, I could tell the potential of that driver, which is what prompted me to buy them even before diving in here. I was just going to put them in a simple BR cabinet and see what I could squeeze out of them. It just seemed like a good place to start in FR. I'm betting I end up liking this driver.
Mr Boat,
If you like TC9 with a woofer and a lowish crossover circa 400Hz to 600Hz, check out the HyperFast. You can set up the arrangement anyway you like sort of lego-like. I would use a bigger woofer maybe 6.5in. I used 5.25in because I had them on hand. 8in would be even better. If going 8in, try RS225-8. Then you can use a passive crossover that I have which gives transient perfect behavior. The HyperFAST allows a configuration that places TC9 with setback relative to woofer for transient perfect timing alignment.
HyperFAST - a Hypercube Based 2-Way
Angled mounting option with setback:
Crossover here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor-81.html#post5099238
Measured step response with this crossover and any TC9/10F family fullrange and RS228-8:
If you like TC9 with a woofer and a lowish crossover circa 400Hz to 600Hz, check out the HyperFast. You can set up the arrangement anyway you like sort of lego-like. I would use a bigger woofer maybe 6.5in. I used 5.25in because I had them on hand. 8in would be even better. If going 8in, try RS225-8. Then you can use a passive crossover that I have which gives transient perfect behavior. The HyperFAST allows a configuration that places TC9 with setback relative to woofer for transient perfect timing alignment.
HyperFAST - a Hypercube Based 2-Way
Angled mounting option with setback:
Crossover here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor-81.html#post5099238
Measured step response with this crossover and any TC9/10F family fullrange and RS228-8:
That's pretty cool looking. Thank you for posting that. I have yet to read up on a lot of these types of speakers. Which might be a good thing. Every time I get a pkg delivered, my family is starting to say; "What, more speakers?"
Day 15 with the little TC9's in the Nola clones and over 100 hrs on them. Still not able to find a fault with these. Ended up pairing them with the Dayton RSS315 I had laying around, in a sealed cab of the same approx. size that Zaph uses for it.
Horns, vocals, high hat, triangle, xylophone, steel drums, maraca, chimes, piano, and a bunch of light percussion instruments one normally doesn't tend to care to notice, the little TC9's find them well enough. Even with something like a potent sax or horns break, the other subtle highs still manage to come through.
I've been fair with these. I didn't try to blow them up or see how much bass they would do. I EQ'd them by ear to sound right and played gobs of different music through them at an avg of 80db at around 8ft. My final take on these drivers, in this setup being, that after two weeks and a pair of speakers is still stopping me in my tracks, distracting me away from my reading or other tasks in which to listen, that's a good speaker.
The Dayton RSS315 sub driver was another welcome surprise via this trial. I had only plugged it in long enough to see if it worked when I bought it. Definitely a sweet sounding subwoofer for music.
Horns, vocals, high hat, triangle, xylophone, steel drums, maraca, chimes, piano, and a bunch of light percussion instruments one normally doesn't tend to care to notice, the little TC9's find them well enough. Even with something like a potent sax or horns break, the other subtle highs still manage to come through.
I've been fair with these. I didn't try to blow them up or see how much bass they would do. I EQ'd them by ear to sound right and played gobs of different music through them at an avg of 80db at around 8ft. My final take on these drivers, in this setup being, that after two weeks and a pair of speakers is still stopping me in my tracks, distracting me away from my reading or other tasks in which to listen, that's a good speaker.
The Dayton RSS315 sub driver was another welcome surprise via this trial. I had only plugged it in long enough to see if it worked when I bought it. Definitely a sweet sounding subwoofer for music.
There is no reason why Dave could not sell enabled tc9s so, sorry but your implication is not valid IMO. I have read other posters opinions similar to his just as I have read negative opinions about drivers he likes. Enjoy your speakers. You should be justly proud of them.
Yes.
And to those on this forum who's curiosity led them to work it out, in spite of the simplicity and lack of pedigree with the parts, was actually pretty brilliant.
I can really appreciate that.
MrBoat - it feels like a bit of a minefield for me to comment in this thread, but as for the A10.3 - while they'll work nicely enough in any of the small BR designs available, I think they deserve a larger enclosure such as Scott Lindgren's Pensil or the FHXL.
I have heard both the TC and TG9s, and don't have a particular hate on for them, and can live quite happily with most of the Fostex or MA FR drivers - even absent those magic polka dots.
I just don't have the space, time or frankly enthusiasm for something as elaborate as any of the full bore line arrays in which the little Vifa / Peerless wonders reportedly excel. For those folks who do - great.
I have heard both the TC and TG9s, and don't have a particular hate on for them, and can live quite happily with most of the Fostex or MA FR drivers - even absent those magic polka dots.
I just don't have the space, time or frankly enthusiasm for something as elaborate as any of the full bore line arrays in which the little Vifa / Peerless wonders reportedly excel. For those folks who do - great.
I’d happily do some, if paid. The cost of treatment thou is significantly greater then the cost of the driver, so it becomes a value question. I still have a set, i probably will EnABL them at some point. Same with the 10Fs, and some Aura NS3.
dave
Sorry to see this getting dragged back up, it wasn't about the TC9.
It was about the need to discredit a perfectly capable driver with unfounded metrics. No one but the creator of that metric has the power to apply such a value. Do we all need such a metric to sell our product? Or should the product one sells speak for itself without discrediting the product of others.
I'd probably object to it if Dave actually sold an enabled version of the TC9. Why would anyone be willing to modify and sell something he does not believe in?
Ps. My apologies to Mr. Boat. I hope you will get an equal amount of joy should you decide to put that MA driver to good use.
After all, it is as much about the joy of creating something as it is about enjoying the fruits of that labor.
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My point exactly.Why would anyone be willing to modify and sell something he does not believe in?
If you are talking about DDR it is a metric defined by Alan Wright (RIP) and in use long before i adopted its use.
It is a good descriptor of what is lacking in the TC9 (at least in the sets i auditioned).
dave
Sorry to see this getting dragged back up, it wasn't about the TC9.
It was about the need to discredit a perfectly capable driver with unfounded metrics. No one but the creator of that metric has the power to apply such a value. Do we all need such a metric to sell our product? Or should the product one sells speak for itself without discrediting the product of others.
I'd probably object to it if Dave actually sold an enabled version of the TC9. Why would anyone be willing to modify and sell something he does not believe in?
Ps. My apologies to Mr. Boat. I hope you will get an equal amount of joy should you decide to put that MA driver to good use.
After all, it is as much about the joy of creating something as it is about enjoying the fruits of that labor.
No apologies needed. It's just one of those things that happens where a lot of different products are tried and talked about. I wouldn't settle on one or the other because of selective opinions, anyway, unless it was unanimous.
I don't always choose my best speakers to listen to. Sometimes I choose just for a change of pace or some EQ challenge to see what I can get out of them and often times I manage something sweet out of them.
I still can't deny Carl Marchisotto choosing these drivers. I wanted to know why.
I am sure I will enjoy the MA speakers as well, and a bunch of others, according to the goings-on around this place. This is a DIY'rs treasure chest.
My point exactly, it's not a metric if you are the only one (or even one of few) that can grade the drivers. If it were definable independently and non subjective it would actually have meaning. Now it's just a hollow phrase. At least how you use it.
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