Hello,
I will soon have to leave my house to a small flat and I'm forced to sell my actual (dream) speakers. (BMS 18N862 - 12N620 - TAD 4001 and 703 in wall in a full treated room) .
So i started a while back looking at options that would work for me in small room (<20 sqm) with minimal acoustic treatment and for low volume listening
Full range floor to ceiling line array assisted by a pair of sub woofer have always been a configuration i wanted to try out so here i am.
I have ordered a pair of of 3FE25 8ohm and make a quick 1.2 liters sealed test enclosure. They sound quite nice and i can see some potential in them.
I now start to consider building two 24 speakers array with BMS 12n630 down low. I have more hypex ucd 180 hr than needed and an XTA DP448 for crossover and equalization.
I'm in the early design stage but i have a short time to get them working (beginning of next year).
I will have to move them easily and i don't know the ceiling height exactly (240-250 cm roughly) so several cabinet per array (3 at least)
Few questions are on my list now
1- Which version to consider (4, 8 or 16 ohms) and do you have some input on the best way to connect them.
2- Should i consider power tapping / multi amp with delay ?
3- I'm wondering if i could benefit to make them wider than deep, i order to have them very close to the wall, and with around them, as deep as the cabinet on all the front wall absorbent panels ?
4- Should i try to make the distance between the speakers uniform once the array is assembled or does a minor difference is acceptable ?
Thanks for your help
Anthony
I will soon have to leave my house to a small flat and I'm forced to sell my actual (dream) speakers. (BMS 18N862 - 12N620 - TAD 4001 and 703 in wall in a full treated room) .
So i started a while back looking at options that would work for me in small room (<20 sqm) with minimal acoustic treatment and for low volume listening
Full range floor to ceiling line array assisted by a pair of sub woofer have always been a configuration i wanted to try out so here i am.
I have ordered a pair of of 3FE25 8ohm and make a quick 1.2 liters sealed test enclosure. They sound quite nice and i can see some potential in them.
I now start to consider building two 24 speakers array with BMS 12n630 down low. I have more hypex ucd 180 hr than needed and an XTA DP448 for crossover and equalization.
I'm in the early design stage but i have a short time to get them working (beginning of next year).
I will have to move them easily and i don't know the ceiling height exactly (240-250 cm roughly) so several cabinet per array (3 at least)
Few questions are on my list now
1- Which version to consider (4, 8 or 16 ohms) and do you have some input on the best way to connect them.
2- Should i consider power tapping / multi amp with delay ?
3- I'm wondering if i could benefit to make them wider than deep, i order to have them very close to the wall, and with around them, as deep as the cabinet on all the front wall absorbent panels ?
4- Should i try to make the distance between the speakers uniform once the array is assembled or does a minor difference is acceptable ?
Thanks for your help
Anthony
By using the same number of drivers in series as in parallel you will end up back at the same impedance of a single driver.
i.e. 5 x 5 = 25 Drivers, 4 x 4 = 16
Using 24 will give you a different mix of 6 x 4 in either combination.
The impedance you target will depend somewhat on how much power you want to pull from the amps.
By using 16 ohm drivers you could use more parallel connections and still keep the impedance reasonable.
There was a lot of discussion on my thread and wesayso's about different series parallel connection schemes. You could search those or I can find the links later.
There is really no need for power tapering or delay shading if you use a floor to ceiling straight line with small drivers like the 3fe25. It gets complicated and I don't see the benefit.
Wide and thin could work as long as there is enough distance to absorb the rear wave and still leave some breathing room. Placement on or near the wall will increase bass loading and the wide baffle will give a different response.
Toe-in angle is quite important with these sort of speakers and the best angle will need to be found through experimentation. The position of the speakers within the room will have quite a marked effect on the bass but if you are crossing to subs that is less critical. Symmetry can be both good and bad. You want a reasonable listening distance of 2 to 3 metres for the speakers to gel together better.
The lines will need a lot of EQ and with only 9 bands per channel it will be a slightly more general curve you can get. If you can use EQ from a computer or even better convolution processing further up the chain that will help.
i.e. 5 x 5 = 25 Drivers, 4 x 4 = 16
Using 24 will give you a different mix of 6 x 4 in either combination.
The impedance you target will depend somewhat on how much power you want to pull from the amps.
By using 16 ohm drivers you could use more parallel connections and still keep the impedance reasonable.
There was a lot of discussion on my thread and wesayso's about different series parallel connection schemes. You could search those or I can find the links later.
There is really no need for power tapering or delay shading if you use a floor to ceiling straight line with small drivers like the 3fe25. It gets complicated and I don't see the benefit.
Wide and thin could work as long as there is enough distance to absorb the rear wave and still leave some breathing room. Placement on or near the wall will increase bass loading and the wide baffle will give a different response.
Toe-in angle is quite important with these sort of speakers and the best angle will need to be found through experimentation. The position of the speakers within the room will have quite a marked effect on the bass but if you are crossing to subs that is less critical. Symmetry can be both good and bad. You want a reasonable listening distance of 2 to 3 metres for the speakers to gel together better.
The lines will need a lot of EQ and with only 9 bands per channel it will be a slightly more general curve you can get. If you can use EQ from a computer or even better convolution processing further up the chain that will help.
Hello,
Thanks for your help,
25 speakers makes things easy i worth look into that, i like easy.
I was considering putting them close to the wall to have less delay between the direct sound and the reflection from the back wall, i would rather build a wall around them has i did for my actual system but i will rent my next home so it is not an option sadly.
I use a PC a source and I'm used to rephase and others, but with my past systems the correction was so dependent to the listening position i ended up not using convulsion anymore.
Thanks for your help,
25 speakers makes things easy i worth look into that, i like easy.
I was considering putting them close to the wall to have less delay between the direct sound and the reflection from the back wall, i would rather build a wall around them has i did for my actual system but i will rent my next home so it is not an option sadly.
I use a PC a source and I'm used to rephase and others, but with my past systems the correction was so dependent to the listening position i ended up not using convulsion anymore.
The location of the speakers is not an easy thing to decide on and going by rules of thumb may or may not get the results you expected.
Unless you absolutely have to place them in a specific position I would say move them around and see what you get. The interactions in a rectangular room are set by distance so predictions like those in REW can actually be quite close to reality.
With my array I set the vertical distance as the middle of the room and moved the speakers virtually in REW until I got the smoothest bass response, the peaks and nulls were very close to measured results when I moved the speakers to those positions.
If your previous speakers were very directional or had very different off axis FR then correction would become placement sensitive to a greater degree.
It is very easy to overcorrect and try to target straight lines and make pretty graphs. Most of the time that does not work well.
Using a spatially averaged measurement can help to avoid overcorrection and make the processing less position dependent. The arrays themselves will help in that they perform a sort of acoustic averaging by the number of drivers being in different positions.
Read through wesayso's Two Towers thread and that will give you a good idea of what to aim for with DRC processing.
The processing I have used on mine holds up pretty well throughout the room and also when listening from another room. It is no worse than a speaker without correction in that way.
Unless you absolutely have to place them in a specific position I would say move them around and see what you get. The interactions in a rectangular room are set by distance so predictions like those in REW can actually be quite close to reality.
With my array I set the vertical distance as the middle of the room and moved the speakers virtually in REW until I got the smoothest bass response, the peaks and nulls were very close to measured results when I moved the speakers to those positions.
If your previous speakers were very directional or had very different off axis FR then correction would become placement sensitive to a greater degree.
It is very easy to overcorrect and try to target straight lines and make pretty graphs. Most of the time that does not work well.
Using a spatially averaged measurement can help to avoid overcorrection and make the processing less position dependent. The arrays themselves will help in that they perform a sort of acoustic averaging by the number of drivers being in different positions.
Read through wesayso's Two Towers thread and that will give you a good idea of what to aim for with DRC processing.
The processing I have used on mine holds up pretty well throughout the room and also when listening from another room. It is no worse than a speaker without correction in that way.
I have built almost exactly as you describe with 24x 3FE22 per array divided into two cabinets per side. Music is very enjoyable through these arrays and sounds very real but you will need a lot of EQ! Don't forget your DP448 also has EQ on the inputs so you can have more than 9 bands.
I added full height 4" thick absorbers on the side walls next to the arrays and this helped massively but mine are very close to the wall.. I'm still experimenting but am generally very happy with them and I've had quite a lot of different speakers in this room!
As suggested, read Wesayso's thread. It's huge but very informative!
I added full height 4" thick absorbers on the side walls next to the arrays and this helped massively but mine are very close to the wall.. I'm still experimenting but am generally very happy with them and I've had quite a lot of different speakers in this room!
As suggested, read Wesayso's thread. It's huge but very informative!
I built a pair of 3- way vertical line arrays 5 years ago,
Twelve 5 inch woofers, twenty 3 inch mids and forty-eight 10mm tweeters because I love to drill holes and solder hundreds of connections. Ignorance is bliss and my ignorant **** became educated really quick! Leason learned is to use floor-to-ceiling arrays with 3" full ranges and a bunch of EQ. Yes, even with 48 tweeters you still need EQ--just the requirements for such designs.
I have played around with the Faital Pro 3" full ranges with Neo magnets, very nice drivers that are very, very efficient so you can go rock concert mode without too much power. If I was going to do it again (if somebody put a gun to my head) I'd use the Faital Pro 3" Neo full ranges and PEQ--life is too short to wire up over 160 speaker drivers to a 3 way crossover...
I listen to my arrays in the garage, they always make me smile with a unique and very large soundstage and--it's fun to be the village idiot with arrays standing on PPSL subwoofers at 2.5 meters high. Somebody has to be the clown.
Good luck and keep us posted--we feel your pain. :O)
Twelve 5 inch woofers, twenty 3 inch mids and forty-eight 10mm tweeters because I love to drill holes and solder hundreds of connections. Ignorance is bliss and my ignorant **** became educated really quick! Leason learned is to use floor-to-ceiling arrays with 3" full ranges and a bunch of EQ. Yes, even with 48 tweeters you still need EQ--just the requirements for such designs.
I have played around with the Faital Pro 3" full ranges with Neo magnets, very nice drivers that are very, very efficient so you can go rock concert mode without too much power. If I was going to do it again (if somebody put a gun to my head) I'd use the Faital Pro 3" Neo full ranges and PEQ--life is too short to wire up over 160 speaker drivers to a 3 way crossover...
I listen to my arrays in the garage, they always make me smile with a unique and very large soundstage and--it's fun to be the village idiot with arrays standing on PPSL subwoofers at 2.5 meters high. Somebody has to be the clown.
Good luck and keep us posted--we feel your pain. :O)
3FE22 column example
Hey Dede,
I had been looking into this with the same driver some time ago.
I use them in small columns (4 drivers per cabinet) with closed volume of 0,7 liters per driver (so 4 closed chambers in a box) for PA. They are GREAT drivers, very "Hifi" for such a little animal.
In the closed box, they roll of at around 200 Hz, which is fine by me. Adding a 10" or 12" BR gives a nice little PA (I use Crown XLS 2500 to drive them).
I looked up my paper experiment, see attached. I used 2 BR pipes of 75 mm diameter (a standard PVC pipe) which need to be 57 mm long. Average damping applied. I use 12 mm grade AA birch multiplex, 15 mm if you want to be REALLY safe in cabinet resonance management. Maybe, some internal braces with holes in them (to keep it 1 column internally).
It's 16 drivers per cabinet, 8 Ohms drivers, 4 sets of drivers. You wire 4 in series which gives one set. If you wire these sets parallel you will end up at 8 Ohms again.
You NEED to mount them TIGHT against each other, so speaker against speaker in order to reduce comb effects (or at least as high up the frequencies as possible).
Advantage of such a large column is tight vertical dispersion (so hardly any floor or ceiling reflections). Horizontal dispersion is around 90 degrees with little high rollof. Just a little "tough in" is required for a nice stereo image.
The graphs are at 50 Watts, which produces 116 dB
THAT IS LOUD!! I think that at 10 - 25 watts normal operation your fine. Normally I would go 2x to 4x the max amp power related to required power to get your desired dB level. Gives you tons of headroom, very low distortion. Never blown a driver in my PA's, which have been sold to an number of bands and DJ's.
My experience with this driver is that you will need to tame high frequencies, they are a bit aggressive which is fine for a PA, but NOT for Hifi domestic use.
Look at the frequency plot from Faital, you'll see what i mean. 2 corrections at around 5.5 kHz and 10 kHz might do the job (at least that's what I do at my PA upon customer request). So a DSP is the way to go here.
I also applied a High Pass filter @ 55Hz, 12dB/oct with Q=1,8. This will prevent you from high driver excursion with heavy "low end" audio.
For 32 drivers, your set at around 800 Euro's. Not cheap but hey, you'll get 2 columns that are capable of blowing you hair at any direction
Just listening at music, maybe no sub is required. For Film and such material, I think you should add a sub (easy DIY with an 8" or 10"). OOrrr twerk this version to make them go lower, but this is a "on the safe side" version with a flat as possible low end.
Keep us posted.
Well, that's my 5 cents of thoughts
Hey Dede,
I had been looking into this with the same driver some time ago.
I use them in small columns (4 drivers per cabinet) with closed volume of 0,7 liters per driver (so 4 closed chambers in a box) for PA. They are GREAT drivers, very "Hifi" for such a little animal.
In the closed box, they roll of at around 200 Hz, which is fine by me. Adding a 10" or 12" BR gives a nice little PA (I use Crown XLS 2500 to drive them).
I looked up my paper experiment, see attached. I used 2 BR pipes of 75 mm diameter (a standard PVC pipe) which need to be 57 mm long. Average damping applied. I use 12 mm grade AA birch multiplex, 15 mm if you want to be REALLY safe in cabinet resonance management. Maybe, some internal braces with holes in them (to keep it 1 column internally).
It's 16 drivers per cabinet, 8 Ohms drivers, 4 sets of drivers. You wire 4 in series which gives one set. If you wire these sets parallel you will end up at 8 Ohms again.
You NEED to mount them TIGHT against each other, so speaker against speaker in order to reduce comb effects (or at least as high up the frequencies as possible).
Advantage of such a large column is tight vertical dispersion (so hardly any floor or ceiling reflections). Horizontal dispersion is around 90 degrees with little high rollof. Just a little "tough in" is required for a nice stereo image.
The graphs are at 50 Watts, which produces 116 dB
THAT IS LOUD!! I think that at 10 - 25 watts normal operation your fine. Normally I would go 2x to 4x the max amp power related to required power to get your desired dB level. Gives you tons of headroom, very low distortion. Never blown a driver in my PA's, which have been sold to an number of bands and DJ's.My experience with this driver is that you will need to tame high frequencies, they are a bit aggressive which is fine for a PA, but NOT for Hifi domestic use.
Look at the frequency plot from Faital, you'll see what i mean. 2 corrections at around 5.5 kHz and 10 kHz might do the job (at least that's what I do at my PA upon customer request). So a DSP is the way to go here.
I also applied a High Pass filter @ 55Hz, 12dB/oct with Q=1,8. This will prevent you from high driver excursion with heavy "low end" audio.
For 32 drivers, your set at around 800 Euro's. Not cheap but hey, you'll get 2 columns that are capable of blowing you hair at any direction
Just listening at music, maybe no sub is required. For Film and such material, I think you should add a sub (easy DIY with an 8" or 10"). OOrrr twerk this version to make them go lower, but this is a "on the safe side" version with a flat as possible low end.
Keep us posted.
Well, that's my 5 cents of thoughts
Attachments
BMS 12N620
Hi dede
I can see you used the 12N620 for midrange duties, how high did you cross it over to the tweeter?
I am thinking of using it for midrange PA/DJ with the BMS 18N862 for subs (have two of those allready) and the BMS 4590 on top.
I also have 3 BMS 12N630 I use as subs for small events. Will buy 1 more in the not too distant future.
You are the only one in here that has mentioned that he knows those 620 and I would like to know how they sound.
Best regards
Uwe
Hi dede
I can see you used the 12N620 for midrange duties, how high did you cross it over to the tweeter?
I am thinking of using it for midrange PA/DJ with the BMS 18N862 for subs (have two of those allready) and the BMS 4590 on top.
I also have 3 BMS 12N630 I use as subs for small events. Will buy 1 more in the not too distant future.
You are the only one in here that has mentioned that he knows those 620 and I would like to know how they sound.
Best regards
Uwe
Hi Uwe,
I was indeed using a 12n620 inbetween the 18n862 and a tad 4001. very good and esay to live with speakers in hifi / low volume application but i can't say much about live events / high power applictions.
They was filtered by an xta dp448 between 150 to 1k and amplified by an hypex ucd180 hr hg.
How do you like your 12n630 by the way ?
Best regards
Anthony
I was indeed using a 12n620 inbetween the 18n862 and a tad 4001. very good and esay to live with speakers in hifi / low volume application but i can't say much about live events / high power applictions.
They was filtered by an xta dp448 between 150 to 1k and amplified by an hypex ucd180 hr hg.
How do you like your 12n630 by the way ?
Best regards
Anthony
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