Hi All,
This is only my second post, but I was hoping for some help with a query.
After looking through WeSaySo and Fluids Line Array threads over the last 2 weeks I am keen to dive back into the world of making speakers as a DIY project. The last pair I built was around 30 years ago! The concept of the tall line array appeals to me and I have 2 corners to utilise, but more importantly my wife's permission to do so as long as I finish them properly!
I have the ability to get 50 PLS-P830987 3" drivers at a very good price, but I need to act reasonably quickly. This means I do not have time to research the requirements as long or thoroughly as I normally would so I would value opinions on the suitability of the driver if possible. I would expect to equalise them as dictated by the room and set up.
I am not sure what else to tell you, but thanks for reading
Cheers
Mark
This is only my second post, but I was hoping for some help with a query.
After looking through WeSaySo and Fluids Line Array threads over the last 2 weeks I am keen to dive back into the world of making speakers as a DIY project. The last pair I built was around 30 years ago! The concept of the tall line array appeals to me and I have 2 corners to utilise, but more importantly my wife's permission to do so as long as I finish them properly!
I have the ability to get 50 PLS-P830987 3" drivers at a very good price, but I need to act reasonably quickly. This means I do not have time to research the requirements as long or thoroughly as I normally would so I would value opinions on the suitability of the driver if possible. I would expect to equalise them as dictated by the room and set up.
I am not sure what else to tell you, but thanks for reading
Cheers
Mark
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What is a good price because that driver is quite a lot more expensive than a TC9 in the first place.
Less xmax and less Sd means that you cannot equalise it to the same extent on the bottom end if that is a concern.
I don't like the massive peak at 15K and particularly how it drops off axis before rebounding back. I suspect it is breakup from the aluminium cone.
A rising response is OK but not a peaking one.
Smooth on and off axis is what is needed as far as I am concerned.
Edit: Also getting 50 exactly means that they all need to be good drivers without issue. I was lucky with mine but sometimes the drivers can get damaged so having a few extra is a good idea.
Less xmax and less Sd means that you cannot equalise it to the same extent on the bottom end if that is a concern.
I don't like the massive peak at 15K and particularly how it drops off axis before rebounding back. I suspect it is breakup from the aluminium cone.
A rising response is OK but not a peaking one.
Smooth on and off axis is what is needed as far as I am concerned.
Edit: Also getting 50 exactly means that they all need to be good drivers without issue. I was lucky with mine but sometimes the drivers can get damaged so having a few extra is a good idea.
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Hi Fluid,
Thanks for responding so quickly. I would have answered straightaway, but I am still at work over here on the East Coast so answering emails etc. took me away from the website.
Under 10 dollars AUD per driver, but not explicitly sure as yet. I can buy (and would) more than 50 pieces so faulty drivers would not be an issue (apart from being annoying!).
In the past I have not been particularly enamoured with the sound of aluminium drivers, but these are available.
I appreciate your comments regarding the 15k peak. Would this make it a deal breaker for you irrespective of the driver price given the rest of the project costs involved?
Cheers
Thanks for responding so quickly. I would have answered straightaway, but I am still at work over here on the East Coast so answering emails etc. took me away from the website.
Under 10 dollars AUD per driver, but not explicitly sure as yet. I can buy (and would) more than 50 pieces so faulty drivers would not be an issue (apart from being annoying!).
In the past I have not been particularly enamoured with the sound of aluminium drivers, but these are available.
I appreciate your comments regarding the 15k peak. Would this make it a deal breaker for you irrespective of the driver price given the rest of the project costs involved?
Cheers
For me it would as it adds an issue that doesn't have a solution, whether you would like the result is hard to say, the combing may reduce it or make it worse, really hard to predict. The reduction in Sd and xmax would also count it out for me too. The lines do need a lot of EQ to go low which I think is one of their biggest assets so less cone and excursion would limit that more.
As they are not ultra cheap I would tend to go with the TC9 still. Digikey has them for about $14 AUD including shipping for a total of less than $750 keeping it under the import limit so no GST and taxes.
There is a ton of work in building a good cabinet for these even if you CNC the hard parts, so I would be more than a little nervous about trying an untested driver with a response like that.
I'd use the Peerless/Tympani TG9FD1008 drivers myself (notice the G instead of C). It's almost identical to the TC9 but, if you can believe the published graphs (I haven't personally measured them), The TG9 has a smoother frequency response in the high end. Less of a rise at around 10kHZ. The TG9 is about $22 each at Madisound or Parts Express here in the U.S. I have both in different systems, but not line array.
The only obvious difference between them is the cone material. TC is treated paper, and the TG is a glass fiber composition. The TG cone is light grey colored, with a black dust cap. Some people prefer all black, if it's going to show. The TC is very good, and the TG might be slightly audibly better. Like wesayso said, this project will cost a LOT of time and money to build, so it would be a shame to have compromised too much on the drivers. Any similar line array also needs significant EQ in order to deliver a relatively flat FR. That can be done digitally or with an analog opamp circuit I have and can share.
Roger Russel, formerly a speaker designer at McIntosh makes a line array system using the TG9 drivers, which he offers (in his retirement) for about $20K per pair, with the active EQ processor. Check out and learn from his website too.
These drivers are only relatively flat to about 15kHZ, but I don't miss the energy above that at all. Other drivers that go higher in frequency usually have an ugly FR, or are way more expensive, from what I've seen. Drivers with more Xmax can have a bit of cavity effect, because of the surround suspension protruding out so far.
The only obvious difference between them is the cone material. TC is treated paper, and the TG is a glass fiber composition. The TG cone is light grey colored, with a black dust cap. Some people prefer all black, if it's going to show. The TC is very good, and the TG might be slightly audibly better. Like wesayso said, this project will cost a LOT of time and money to build, so it would be a shame to have compromised too much on the drivers. Any similar line array also needs significant EQ in order to deliver a relatively flat FR. That can be done digitally or with an analog opamp circuit I have and can share.
Roger Russel, formerly a speaker designer at McIntosh makes a line array system using the TG9 drivers, which he offers (in his retirement) for about $20K per pair, with the active EQ processor. Check out and learn from his website too.
These drivers are only relatively flat to about 15kHZ, but I don't miss the energy above that at all. Other drivers that go higher in frequency usually have an ugly FR, or are way more expensive, from what I've seen. Drivers with more Xmax can have a bit of cavity effect, because of the surround suspension protruding out so far.
Hi Wesayso,
Melbourne is 2700 kilometres from Perth plus the extra 1200k to get to Fluid so that is not really an option! (I wish that it were). In my experience listening sessions always help. To me the line array concept is a great (exciting) unknown that I am happy to take a journey to.
Thanks Bob,
I have a general preference for treated paper over other materials for speaker cones so I will probably go for the Vifa that Fluid & Wesayso have used successfully.
I also appreciate the advice and intend to use digital processing to equalise the system, but thank you you also for your offer of an analogue circuit.
Already I can see that DiyAudio is a very giving and sharing entity.
Melbourne is 2700 kilometres from Perth plus the extra 1200k to get to Fluid so that is not really an option! (I wish that it were). In my experience listening sessions always help. To me the line array concept is a great (exciting) unknown that I am happy to take a journey to.
Thanks Bob,
I have a general preference for treated paper over other materials for speaker cones so I will probably go for the Vifa that Fluid & Wesayso have used successfully.
I also appreciate the advice and intend to use digital processing to equalise the system, but thank you you also for your offer of an analogue circuit.
Already I can see that DiyAudio is a very giving and sharing entity.
From my auditioning of a single driver, TG9 is quite a bit better than TC9 which i do not find very good at all.
dave
The TG9 works out to be quite a bit more expensive when converted to Australian dollars (nearly 1.4 times) and shipping is factored in for 50+ of them.
I have never heard one so I can't offer an opinion but I do question if that difference is as important when they are used in this application and given a significant level of processing.
Having been through the stages of a simple get it in the ball park EQ (like Roger uses or Bob made a circuit for) to measuring in room, processing and tailoring the sound to my preference there is quite a difference.
Impossible to manufacture a speaker to do that as it would not sound the same in every room, but it does end up sounding better that way in mine.
I have never heard one so I can't offer an opinion but I do question if that difference is as important when they are used in this application and given a significant level of processing.
Having been through the stages of a simple get it in the ball park EQ (like Roger uses or Bob made a circuit for) to measuring in room, processing and tailoring the sound to my preference there is quite a difference.
Impossible to manufacture a speaker to do that as it would not sound the same in every room, but it does end up sounding better that way in mine.
The TG9 looks to be a great driver for array applications no doubt.
In terms of missing detail I can't say that applies to the array I have built with TC9 drivers. I have a couple of well set up multiways to compare them to and detail isn't something I feel I'm missing or that the processing was being used to retrieve it.
Do you have or have you listened to a full range floor to ceiling array and digital correction processing together?
In terms of missing detail I can't say that applies to the array I have built with TC9 drivers. I have a couple of well set up multiways to compare them to and detail isn't something I feel I'm missing or that the processing was being used to retrieve it.
Do you have or have you listened to a full range floor to ceiling array and digital correction processing together?
Hi Planet10,
Thank you for your input as well.
I guess at some point I need to work out how much I want to spend on the project. If I work on the assumption that there will always be something better out there, I need to draw the line utilising the law of diminishing returns. That may of course be at the TG9 level of course, but I suspect for me probably not.
Regards
Thank you for your input as well.
I guess at some point I need to work out how much I want to spend on the project. If I work on the assumption that there will always be something better out there, I need to draw the line utilising the law of diminishing returns. That may of course be at the TG9 level of course, but I suspect for me probably not.
Regards
Thank you very much for your insight.
I did not know that. I must have spend years going in the wrong direction. Thank you for this, I rely on your infinite knowledge.
I will let the people, that heard my system know that what they heard wasn't what they thought it was. I only wish I had listened to you before.
I totally understand why Dave's comments hit a nerve with you and no I don't think you were uncivil. I was trying to inject a bit of humour to lighten the mood 
He's entitled to his opinion based on his own knowledge and experience. I can't say I've ever seen anyone write that they preferred the TC9 to the TG9 but I don't see too many people who are as underwhelmed by the TC9 as Dave is.
If I was listening to one driver alone I doubt I would be desperately impressed by either. If they had been equalized to the same target and compared then a big difference found I would be more interested in hearing about it.
What is meant by processing can also be misinterpreted easily, your use of it is a long way from what most people do.
Unless there is someone who has heard both in the intended application of a floor to ceiling line array, then debating it too much based on opinions from different applications is quite likely to upset rather than inform.
He's entitled to his opinion based on his own knowledge and experience. I can't say I've ever seen anyone write that they preferred the TC9 to the TG9 but I don't see too many people who are as underwhelmed by the TC9 as Dave is.
If I was listening to one driver alone I doubt I would be desperately impressed by either. If they had been equalized to the same target and compared then a big difference found I would be more interested in hearing about it.
What is meant by processing can also be misinterpreted easily, your use of it is a long way from what most people do.
Unless there is someone who has heard both in the intended application of a floor to ceiling line array, then debating it too much based on opinions from different applications is quite likely to upset rather than inform.
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