it is possible there could be, i guess for the B102?
A sim shows it will work in the miniOnken alignment. 53 litres, F10 ~40 Hz, F6 ~45 Hz.
dave
The design can be modified to not have bevels (i have done this a number of times) but the loss does increase the diffraction signature of the box.
dave
Haha.. - fair point regarding angle cuts on the khorn/jubilee... touche. Something more complex such as those or even the karlson/karlsonator and I'd likely drag a friend into the project who is better with wood. Not that i'm terrified of the angles, but i do better drawing them than cutting them it seems.
GM - those monitors look awesome! I know you're only joking, but they do sort of serve to illustrate the sort of sound I'm looking for - call it "overkill" if you like.
Dave - the Alpair 10.3 gold does appear to be a killer deal, and a beautiful driver.. thanks for passing it on. The open baffles didn't sound quite right? How so? I'm still trying to get last how they look, nevermind the sound... Not yours in particular, just the concept.
I like the look of the Onken much more, bevels and all.
GM - those monitors look awesome! I know you're only joking, but they do sort of serve to illustrate the sort of sound I'm looking for - call it "overkill" if you like.
Dave - the Alpair 10.3 gold does appear to be a killer deal, and a beautiful driver.. thanks for passing it on. The open baffles didn't sound quite right? How so? I'm still trying to get last how they look, nevermind the sound... Not yours in particular, just the concept.
I like the look of the Onken much more, bevels and all.
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Note that althou Mark labels these as gold they are actually copper. The 1st generation was available in gold, i personally prefer the copper.
I’m not quite sure… maybe the delayed copy of whatever you are playing. I prefer a box, but it needs to well enuff constructed so that it is unobtrusive (ie does not ring when playing music)
dave
I really like the 12LTA. Here's my project:
Eminence Beta 12LTA on Open Baffle | Speaker Projects by Zilla
Since then I've also used the 10" Eminence Lil Buddy on OB and think it sounds as good or better than the 12LTA (but requires a much lower crossover and appropriate tweeter)... and I plan to purchase the Eminence B102 for an upcoming ported project. I really like the sound of Eminence woofers.
The 12LTA needs a big box (at least 3cf) or it is light in the bass. That's why I tried open baffle - and it works very well, IMHO.
Eminence Beta 12LTA on Open Baffle | Speaker Projects by Zilla
Since then I've also used the 10" Eminence Lil Buddy on OB and think it sounds as good or better than the 12LTA (but requires a much lower crossover and appropriate tweeter)... and I plan to purchase the Eminence B102 for an upcoming ported project. I really like the sound of Eminence woofers.
The 12LTA needs a big box (at least 3cf) or it is light in the bass. That's why I tried open baffle - and it works very well, IMHO.
The copper look is aesthetically very nice. I usually prefer the warmer paper cone sound, but have not listened to any of the newer poly/alloy cones recently.
That said, the 10.3's power handling is 30W, and I'm pushing 80wpc rms.. so those little suckers will cook unless I run 2 of them in series for 16 ohm or something..
I may just go the route of picking up a driver, trying it in a big sheet of ply for OB as was suggested, then constructing a few test boxes of various designs out of 3/4" OSB just to hear the differences firsthand... Of course, this is what I was hoping to avoid and don't really have the time for - it'll be 2037 before I've tried them and settled on a box!
Still no one cheerleaders for the "bigger is better" or back loaded horn torch?
Current thoughts on what type/design/driver to use:
-EmKen w/12lta, or Celestion, or Fane 250
-Karsonator12 w/ 12lta
-Standard ported box of appropriate size, a la Hammer Dynamics Super12 approach w/ 12lta
-Fullrange 3-way (ha!) w/ ??? full range driver (a nice Alpair or Fostex I guess), augmented with a super tweeter way up high (+8k?) and a heavier woofer way down low (-100hz?). <--- This I can see will get expensive fast...
Bigger Badder BIB w/12lta or Celestion or Fane 250, augmented w/ supertweeter up top - sorry, I still love the idea of this design. Big in sound and in reality.
Smaller (than 12") drivers in a proper enclosure might work out okay, provided they sound good and will get loud.. I just have my doubts that they'll do loud (11), without distorting and sounding like the little drivers they are (the 4"-6" ones I'm thinking of specifically here). I have a pair of older (circa 1997) bose 201s with 6" woofers, they do not keep up with the old fishers when cranked up. I have a pair of newer yamaha 3 ways with 6 or 8" woofers, and they do not keep up with the fishers either. Hence my "no replacement for displacement" attitude here.
Note:
According to the super accurate uncalibrated mic on my phone I'm typically listening around 70-80-90 dB... but when I crank it up to jam, it's quite a bit louder than that, and off the scale of what the phone mic can measure. If rock concert level is "120 dB", then I'd like to be able to hit that.. if only occasionally, and to have some headroom so the speakers aren't tapped out at like 80 dB. Not to say I don't care about the fidelity of the material being played - I do indeed care, I can't stand hearing distortion especially. But I'm not sure I'm as sensitive to some of the other terms thrown around here.. I do enjoy listening to my Fishers after all! In fact, originally I was just going to build a new enclosure for the Fisher drivers since the original ones are so ratty.. how's that for a waste of time/material? Hahaha. Now I'm trying to do better, but whatever I do build really needs to be leaps and bounds better than the '86 fishers to my ears...
That said, the 10.3's power handling is 30W, and I'm pushing 80wpc rms.. so those little suckers will cook unless I run 2 of them in series for 16 ohm or something..
I may just go the route of picking up a driver, trying it in a big sheet of ply for OB as was suggested, then constructing a few test boxes of various designs out of 3/4" OSB just to hear the differences firsthand... Of course, this is what I was hoping to avoid and don't really have the time for - it'll be 2037 before I've tried them and settled on a box!
Still no one cheerleaders for the "bigger is better" or back loaded horn torch?
Current thoughts on what type/design/driver to use:
-EmKen w/12lta, or Celestion, or Fane 250
-Karsonator12 w/ 12lta
-Standard ported box of appropriate size, a la Hammer Dynamics Super12 approach w/ 12lta
-Fullrange 3-way (ha!) w/ ??? full range driver (a nice Alpair or Fostex I guess), augmented with a super tweeter way up high (+8k?) and a heavier woofer way down low (-100hz?). <--- This I can see will get expensive fast...
Bigger Badder BIB w/12lta or Celestion or Fane 250, augmented w/ supertweeter up top - sorry, I still love the idea of this design. Big in sound and in reality.
Smaller (than 12") drivers in a proper enclosure might work out okay, provided they sound good and will get loud.. I just have my doubts that they'll do loud (11), without distorting and sounding like the little drivers they are (the 4"-6" ones I'm thinking of specifically here). I have a pair of older (circa 1997) bose 201s with 6" woofers, they do not keep up with the old fishers when cranked up. I have a pair of newer yamaha 3 ways with 6 or 8" woofers, and they do not keep up with the fishers either. Hence my "no replacement for displacement" attitude here.
Note:
According to the super accurate uncalibrated mic on my phone I'm typically listening around 70-80-90 dB... but when I crank it up to jam, it's quite a bit louder than that, and off the scale of what the phone mic can measure. If rock concert level is "120 dB", then I'd like to be able to hit that.. if only occasionally, and to have some headroom so the speakers aren't tapped out at like 80 dB. Not to say I don't care about the fidelity of the material being played - I do indeed care, I can't stand hearing distortion especially. But I'm not sure I'm as sensitive to some of the other terms thrown around here.. I do enjoy listening to my Fishers after all!
In fact, originally I was just going to build a new enclosure for the Fisher drivers since the original ones are so ratty.. how's that for a waste of time/material? Hahaha. Now I'm trying to do better, but whatever I do build really needs to be leaps and bounds better than the '86 fishers to my ears...Hi Zilla, I've done a lot of reading on your page, thanks for having it out there to be read, as such.
Your opinions on the 12lta as well as others in quite a few threads I read are what got me interested in it in the first place... and I enjoy modding things, so playing around with the dustcap/phase plug and/or making it a coax, messing with the wizzer cone, etc all sounds like good fun.
At the very basis of my intentions here was to look at putting the 12lta in something big but optimized to prop up the lta's weak base like the BIB, or to just put it in a vented enclosure, and either way add a super tweeter up top...
But opinions tend to vary, and no one else has the same ears I have.
***
Edit: Just spoke to the wife, and it's unanimous: Good sounding or not, Open Baffle is OUT of the question, mostly because the kids will destroy it, never mind if we get another dog.. bloody hell. I don't have a separate listening room under lock and key, this will be in our living room doing dual duty for music/home theater.
***
Your opinions on the 12lta as well as others in quite a few threads I read are what got me interested in it in the first place... and I enjoy modding things, so playing around with the dustcap/phase plug and/or making it a coax, messing with the wizzer cone, etc all sounds like good fun.
At the very basis of my intentions here was to look at putting the 12lta in something big but optimized to prop up the lta's weak base like the BIB, or to just put it in a vented enclosure, and either way add a super tweeter up top...
But opinions tend to vary, and no one else has the same ears I have.
***
Edit: Just spoke to the wife, and it's unanimous: Good sounding or not, Open Baffle is OUT of the question, mostly because the kids will destroy it, never mind if we get another dog.. bloody hell. I don't have a separate listening room under lock and key, this will be in our living room doing dual duty for music/home theater.
***
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Mark’s 2nd & 3rd generation metal cone designs do not fall into the general metal cone stereotype.
Power ratings & handling are one of the most misunderstood parameters there is. And one of the most useless. For speakers there are no standards so they become more or less meaningless. With the Alpairs and their built in arrestors as long as you turm the volume down you will be fine.
But even horn-loaded (see below) they aren’t going to do the kind of levels you need when cranked (as you describe below). To do that you are going to have to add helper woofers and make a FAST.
Alpair 10x work in Frugel-Horn XL and Silberry.
dave
GM - those monitors look awesome! I know you're only joking, but they do sort of serve to illustrate the sort of sound I'm looking for - call it "overkill" if you like.
Look at my avatar and sig line........ Some speaker systems can make some types of recordings sound very 'live' as in 'is it live or is it Memorex' and single drivers will always be 'Memorex', though some have come close over the critical speech BW when WG loaded. For the most part then, it's an acoustic efficiency 'thing' and to a lesser extent total available BW at high SQ, so not 'overkill' at all even at apartment, late night SPLs.
Well beyond many folk's budget, so I guess in this respect just joking, but serious as a heart attack for something to aspire to when reproducing vocals, live instruments.
GM
Dave - Regarding wattage, I'd be the first to admit I'm no electrical engineer, only going off of my experiences and probably way too much "hearsay"... So I won't bake the voicecoils at a 80w rms signal, cranked up to 11? Because the 30w rating is only a thermal rating.. (and varies by mfr) and in this case the arrestor stops excessive excursion.. but wouldn't the juice going thru the coil still melt the insulation (or 30w in this case perhaps only gets the coil warm, so there is a heavy safety factor built in)? Or I wouldn't be able to turn it up to that point anyway, having run into the arrestor at some volume level and backing it off to get rid of whatever racket it makes? That would make sense at least... sorry, still learning.
And I had (temporarily) forgotten about the FHXL, and had not heard of the Silberry... Ahhh, okay, another Woden design. I like the look of those tall dual mouth enclosures he makes. Wonder what size driver it would take then to hit those volume levels in something like the FHXL or Silberry type enclosure? 8" dia? (at one point had decided on an 8" BIB with the pioneer BOFU, but it turned out to be NLA) 10" dia? Or may as well go 12" dia?
GM - "very live" would be ideal, within a certain budget (Always that compromise that sneaks in and ruins everything!).
What is your opinion on the best way to get there, with only say 500 bucks for the drivers & ply (& crossovers, etc).. ?
WG loaded = waveguide loaded? And I thought the single drivers were the ones purported to more like "live" ? The more I read/learn, the deeper this rabbit hole goes!
And I had (temporarily) forgotten about the FHXL, and had not heard of the Silberry... Ahhh, okay, another Woden design. I like the look of those tall dual mouth enclosures he makes. Wonder what size driver it would take then to hit those volume levels in something like the FHXL or Silberry type enclosure? 8" dia? (at one point had decided on an 8" BIB with the pioneer BOFU, but it turned out to be NLA) 10" dia? Or may as well go 12" dia?
GM - "very live" would be ideal, within a certain budget (Always that compromise that sneaks in and ruins everything!).
What is your opinion on the best way to get there, with only say 500 bucks for the drivers & ply (& crossovers, etc).. ?
WG loaded = waveguide loaded? And I thought the single drivers were the ones purported to more like "live" ? The more I read/learn, the deeper this rabbit hole goes!
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The arrestor only gives you an audible warning that you are starting to exceed the limits.
Yes.
FE206En in Vulcan might get there. About 95 dB efficiency, 20W would get you to 108dB. But they FExx6 Fostex tend to prefer higher output impedance amplifiers, which i doubt yours is.
A client is just putting together a 604e in Bison (another Woden design) and it is costing about $3k.
dave
Amp is a solid state, an older yamaha receiver p/n rx-v870. I don't recall any specs on output impedance... and its over my head I'm afraid anyhow, please excuse my ignorance.. It wants a 6 or 8 ohm load, this much I recall.
Thanks, I wondered what Woden's bigger stuff would do. Vulcan for Fostex or the Avebury for Mark Audio.
Yes, I know the budget tends to kill things... $3000 is pretty steep, hope they sound as "live" as the client hopes!
Really even a simple kit from parts-express ought to sound better than these old fishers quality wise, but seems like the bigger drivers are a necessity to jam at higher volumes... Or perhaps 9x 6" dia Fostex FR to simulate the cone area of a 12" FR? Not sure how you'd wire all that.. series parallel arrangement with 8x could work I guess.... but back to budget, at 80-200 bucks a pop times 8 or 9, times 2... ouch!
Thanks, I wondered what Woden's bigger stuff would do. Vulcan for Fostex or the Avebury for Mark Audio.
Yes, I know the budget tends to kill things... $3000 is pretty steep, hope they sound as "live" as the client hopes!
Really even a simple kit from parts-express ought to sound better than these old fishers quality wise, but seems like the bigger drivers are a necessity to jam at higher volumes... Or perhaps 9x 6" dia Fostex FR to simulate the cone area of a 12" FR? Not sure how you'd wire all that.. series parallel arrangement with 8x could work I guess.... but back to budget, at 80-200 bucks a pop times 8 or 9, times 2... ouch!
That is a fairly contemporary one. They are in the higher the damping factor number the better. That means a low output impedance. On the Fostex things would tend to sound thin.
dave
here is my short experience, tried Alpair10p but the sound is 'small', later tried 12" woofer with sophisticated spec (neo magnet btw) with low qts but I missed kick drum. Then i use Fane 12-200LT with qts around 0.7 and this is now my current choice. It might need additional super tweeter if you require the last 2 octave.
I'd like to try 12LTA but i cant find any local seller, maybe Fane will stay for a long time.
32" wide open baffle, 21" subwoofer powered by inuke nu3000dsp, class a amplifier for 12" + tweeter, big enough??
it is also in living room, main area for family member. i have 5yr twin boys, another 8mth baby girl. for the boys, i had taught them to take care of the speaker cone. indeed previously the took out some cones of hifi speaker, but now they already understand not to do it anymore. anyway PA driver is much stronger than hifi driver.
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Dave, either it cut off your response, or it was a bit late in the evening...
Gadut - those look nice, those 21s are indeed big. So they are set up with the 12lta running full range and tweeters at top end? What about those horns? The inuke3000dsp is what i was planning on to drive a single 15" sub (lilmike "f20" or maybe his "lilwrecker").
I was planning the separate single sub for home theater use only - just turn it on to switch the system to HT mode. Perhaps there is some merit in mounting the subwoofers in the same enclosure (or "board" for OB) but with separate internal baffles of course... I think i went away from this because the enclosures got rather large.. especially with the lilmike designs, blh/TH. With a sealed box, or even ported, the size would likely be much more manageable.
If we are talking about integrating the sub(s), the budget does go up at least, there was another 500 budgeted for the sub, so thats $1k total...
Gadut - those look nice, those 21s are indeed big. So they are set up with the 12lta running full range and tweeters at top end? What about those horns? The inuke3000dsp is what i was planning on to drive a single 15" sub (lilmike "f20" or maybe his "lilwrecker").
I was planning the separate single sub for home theater use only - just turn it on to switch the system to HT mode. Perhaps there is some merit in mounting the subwoofers in the same enclosure (or "board" for OB) but with separate internal baffles of course... I think i went away from this because the enclosures got rather large.. especially with the lilmike designs, blh/TH. With a sealed box, or even ported, the size would likely be much more manageable.
If we are talking about integrating the sub(s), the budget does go up at least, there was another 500 budgeted for the sub, so thats $1k total...
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Zilla - Worth a try, but I'm afraid I'll lose all the low end grunt in a small sealed box. Why go small?
I was thinking a tall ported box with the 12lta up at listening height, or, still, a BIB. I wonder if any one has done a Frugal Horn XXXL with the 12lta? I seem to have seen it mentioned, but never saw anyone build one. Likely it would be even bigger than the BIB, maybe just too damn big, haha.
For music, the sub would be off, so the mains need to handle the bass, at least down to 40 hz or lower. So, down to 40hz or better, and big dB.
Options
1. Mains: 12lta w/ supertweeter in box of some type (still favoring ported or BIB here), tuned for ~40hz or less
Subwoofer: crazy over the top Lilmike F20 or Lilwrecker for HT use only, run off of separate inuke3000 amp
2. Mains: smaller full range driver with or without supertweeter (depending on size and freq range chosen) + bigger helper woofer for low end grunt, crossed in around 80-100hz (using receiver's 80 watts only)
Subwoofer: crazy over the top Lilmike F20 or Lilwrecker for HT use only, run off of separate inuke3000 amp
3. Mains: maller full range driver with or without supertweeter (depending on size and freq range chosen) + large helper woofer for low end grunt, crossed in around 80-100hz (using larger separate amplifier such as inuke3000)
Subwoofer: not needed? Not sure how a pair of Dayton 18s or something else similar would compare to a single F20 or Lilwrecker for HT use.. surely they'd sound better than a dedicated HT sub would for music... And doubtful there'd be much left in the budget for one anyhow with the large helper woofers and inuke3000 added to the purchase price
4. other options?
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Sims with the typical 8” drivers showed it would be near the size of Vulcan/Avebury so there was no point. For 12LTA it would take a bespoke design and would be so large it likely wouldn’t fit thru typical doorways.
As to small as possible, my miniOnken alignment tend to produce small boxes with surprising bass that is very articulated. Lower quality bass requires a TL or horn (much larger boxes).
dave
I don't understand this, what do you mean, using the same driver or just in general?
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