Ahhh.
I had some luck running 2 x 4" with a 12" woof at one time, all run wide open.
And 2 weeks ago, luck running full range (basically, 6db tweet + wide band woof) with 2 x 15", no crossover, and no eq but -2db on tweet. But the full range is on floor, middle of 12' wide room below a window, while the 15's are 4ohm load, 10db more sensitive, and in a corner. I guess i really like hugely boosted bass !!!!!!
I'm still debating how to add more of the 10's i have to give the mid bass punch and i can turn the bass down from +6db that would then reduce excursion of full range, thusly less distortion and the more clean volume.
When i ran my biggest system, i had 15's from 80hz to 750hz. I ran a baffle step woofer 15 under the 15. At low volumes, bringing in the baffle step woof didn't seem to add anything. Medium volume it added a little, but at high volume it made a difference.
Anyway, nice setup, and a fun slamming chest pounder you have there !!!!
I had some luck running 2 x 4" with a 12" woof at one time, all run wide open.
And 2 weeks ago, luck running full range (basically, 6db tweet + wide band woof) with 2 x 15", no crossover, and no eq but -2db on tweet. But the full range is on floor, middle of 12' wide room below a window, while the 15's are 4ohm load, 10db more sensitive, and in a corner. I guess i really like hugely boosted bass !!!!!!
I'm still debating how to add more of the 10's i have to give the mid bass punch and i can turn the bass down from +6db that would then reduce excursion of full range, thusly less distortion and the more clean volume.
When i ran my biggest system, i had 15's from 80hz to 750hz. I ran a baffle step woofer 15 under the 15. At low volumes, bringing in the baffle step woof didn't seem to add anything. Medium volume it added a little, but at high volume it made a difference.
Anyway, nice setup, and a fun slamming chest pounder you have there !!!!
When the 6 boxes of 15" drivers got in the door, the .mrs nearly cried.
It's been complaining and heated words (not a single one from me) through the whole build process.
When they got placed and connected to the amp I played one single song (Taj Mahal - Johnny too bad, flac ofcourse) then she firmly told me to get lost because she was going to put on some tunes... I just smiled and let her at it.
Played a little bit louder than I have ever been comfortable with earlier, got about 20 minutes in peace while she was doing some stuff and the kids got busy outside. She commented a new apparent record in house vibrations. It's squeky clean at any volume and I have not been able to move any of the drivers more than maybe absolute max 2mm.
It's been complaining and heated words (not a single one from me) through the whole build process.
When they got placed and connected to the amp I played one single song (Taj Mahal - Johnny too bad, flac ofcourse) then she firmly told me to get lost because she was going to put on some tunes... I just smiled and let her at it.
Played a little bit louder than I have ever been comfortable with earlier, got about 20 minutes in peace while she was doing some stuff and the kids got busy outside. She commented a new apparent record in house vibrations. It's squeky clean at any volume and I have not been able to move any of the drivers more than maybe absolute max 2mm.
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This WAS my man cave, until I got a TV and stereo set up nicely. So I had a man cave for about 1.5 weeks. Our living room is upstairs, much bigger and with my Seas build and a classic Nikko amp. Plenty of sound there, and space.
She claims to have no interest in audio.
She complains more about recording quality than I do. I hear comments about crap sound systems and "we have much better sound at home" on occassion. I guess it's collateral damage from living together with me.
She was giving me the silent treatment when I was setting up the system yesterday. Then grinning from ear to ear when she got control of it after chasing me away.
"And all was well in the world."
Makes me happy.
She claims to have no interest in audio.
She complains more about recording quality than I do. I hear comments about crap sound systems and "we have much better sound at home" on occassion. I guess it's collateral damage from living together with me.
She was giving me the silent treatment when I was setting up the system yesterday. Then grinning from ear to ear when she got control of it after chasing me away.
"And all was well in the world."
Makes me happy.
Thanks for the write-up.
I'm now thinking I could replace my monitor rig with a few of these. Maybe four or six of them. Possibly a small ported box tuned around 70Hz with some EQ to get it flat down there. Should have plenty of slam, and useful for delay/fill speakers etc etc.
Time to fire up the CAD software.
Chris
In the absence of proper measurement facilities, I have done some measurements at 42cm distance from the cone center of my right side speakers. There is hardly any room interaction on this distance.
In this picture the measurements (all 1/12th oct smoothing) are as follows:
Pink: FC152 only, no EQ or other settings.
Red: FC152 only, no EQ but a 3db LP filter at 5khz.
Yellow-ish: FC152 + dual 15-400, no EQ but a 3db LP filter at 5khz.
Green: And last, it's the listening position, with FC152, dual 15-400 and the same 3db LP filter at 5khz, nothing else.
Here is the Unsmoothed 42cm measurements:
Cyan: FC152 + dual 15-400 and nothing else. (Blends with the Blue over 1khz)
Green: FC152 only and 3db LP filter at 5khz.
Dark Blue: FC152 in it's natural state, ca 80 liter sealed box.
Overall I am very happy with the results, the 15-400's give me more frequency extension than I'd hope for in my listening position. The FC152's are toed in slightly to give a broader sweetspot, when toed in it sounds nearly the same in any seat, even if you are directly in front of one.
There would not be any problem at all to use further EQ and filters to flatten the response, but when comparing the different files I tend to prefer the slightly dampened top end over most heavy EQ settings.
In this picture the measurements (all 1/12th oct smoothing) are as follows:
Pink: FC152 only, no EQ or other settings.
Red: FC152 only, no EQ but a 3db LP filter at 5khz.
Yellow-ish: FC152 + dual 15-400, no EQ but a 3db LP filter at 5khz.
Green: And last, it's the listening position, with FC152, dual 15-400 and the same 3db LP filter at 5khz, nothing else.
Here is the Unsmoothed 42cm measurements:
Cyan: FC152 + dual 15-400 and nothing else. (Blends with the Blue over 1khz)
Green: FC152 only and 3db LP filter at 5khz.
Dark Blue: FC152 in it's natural state, ca 80 liter sealed box.
Overall I am very happy with the results, the 15-400's give me more frequency extension than I'd hope for in my listening position. The FC152's are toed in slightly to give a broader sweetspot, when toed in it sounds nearly the same in any seat, even if you are directly in front of one.
There would not be any problem at all to use further EQ and filters to flatten the response, but when comparing the different files I tend to prefer the slightly dampened top end over most heavy EQ settings.
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True.
I do hear "sound signature" differences between types of enclosures. It depends a bit on what you pay attention to, that determines which type sounds best. I hornloaded various driver sizes in various horn types and I really love horn bass. It probably means the classical downsides of horns are not what catch my attention most. A horn is a good environment for a driver to perform in and it couples to the surrounding air in an interesting way.
I think your system looks good and you certainly have an interesting underlying concept. I don't think there really is room for a fullsize horn system. Only you know what is right in your situation.
I quite like horns myself. But I wanted something easy to build and move around after it was finished.
... Underlying concept? Wanting to make my wife frustrated and angry because I knew she'd love it when it was finished? Completing ideas you have late at night after a little bit much to drink?
Being sane does not suit me.
... Underlying concept? Wanting to make my wife frustrated and angry because I knew she'd love it when it was finished? Completing ideas you have late at night after a little bit much to drink?
Being sane does not suit me.
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First time I've seen the words "4 or 6 of them (15" drivers)" and "small ported box" pretty much in the same sentence!
I use 8x 15" subs. Ported, tuned to 40Hz and -10dB in the high 20s. Most portable disco stuff kicks at 100Hz and might grunt out 60Hz. Having something flat down to 40Hz is a nice step up.
Anyway, when you're got a deaf drummer smashing away, a couple of 15"s are a good start for a drum monitor. You need vocals and maybe some kick & snare absolutely slamming out the monitors.
I'm thinking ~30L tuned to 70Hz and EQ down the 120Hz peak so it's pretty much flat to 90Hz and starts rolling off. I'm running a digital desk with a 6-band parametric and a 30-band graphic EQ on every output, so that's my processing sorted. EQing out the peak actually gains headroom, so that's nice. You don't want deep bass on-stage if you can avoid it - it's just more mud for the main PA to contend with, so I'm happy with 90Hz extension.
Power will be a couple of NU3000s, or maybe the NU6000s, depending on how well the drivers hold up to a thermal battering.
Chris
"just more mud for the PA to contend with"
Been to some performances where there is nothing but mud under ca 200-250hz, sometimes can not tell based on the sound alone whether it's an acoustic upright or electric bass. I much prefer small stages/venues, fewer speakers = less chance to mess it up.
On paper the FC152 seems to have good power handling. 300W AES (claims 1200W on short peaks), the air hole on the back of the magnet should help a lot, especially since you are going for a BR enclosure.
A sealed enclosure does not work well in a PA setting. I'd suggest a dampened U baffle, but it's not the best thing when you're going to to move it around all the time, could be made to work though, but BR is more suited for your application.
Been to some performances where there is nothing but mud under ca 200-250hz, sometimes can not tell based on the sound alone whether it's an acoustic upright or electric bass. I much prefer small stages/venues, fewer speakers = less chance to mess it up.
On paper the FC152 seems to have good power handling. 300W AES (claims 1200W on short peaks), the air hole on the back of the magnet should help a lot, especially since you are going for a BR enclosure.
A sealed enclosure does not work well in a PA setting. I'd suggest a dampened U baffle, but it's not the best thing when you're going to to move it around all the time, could be made to work though, but BR is more suited for your application.
I'm currently working on some wedges for small stage use with the 12-250tc, 35-40L, aiming for -3dB@70Hz with a little eq to be able reproduce the 2nd harmonic of a 5 string bass.
I prefer the 12" drivers in general for vocal use.
These drivers are stunning for what they are - really would need to spend a lot on a wedge to get anything close to what these can achieve. Gain before feed back is excellent - poss due to not having a resonant horn in there. Phase response is within around 60 degrees from 200Hz to over 8KHz ish without trying, very natural drum and vocal sounds with a bit of DSP. Need lots of fill in the back chamber deaden the cab, also minimse parallel boards as is the case in a wedge anyway.
Very sensitive and dynamic driver.
Distortion is really low when driven to respectable levels - puts compression drivers to shame, much more detailed at high levels. The most fun driver I have probably ever had the pleasure to play with - there have been many.
I prefer the 12" drivers in general for vocal use.
These drivers are stunning for what they are - really would need to spend a lot on a wedge to get anything close to what these can achieve. Gain before feed back is excellent - poss due to not having a resonant horn in there. Phase response is within around 60 degrees from 200Hz to over 8KHz ish without trying, very natural drum and vocal sounds with a bit of DSP. Need lots of fill in the back chamber deaden the cab, also minimse parallel boards as is the case in a wedge anyway.
Very sensitive and dynamic driver.
Distortion is really low when driven to respectable levels - puts compression drivers to shame, much more detailed at high levels. The most fun driver I have probably ever had the pleasure to play with - there have been many.
It'll be ported for sure.
The power handling is okay. I used some of the 500w 12" Fane units for a while and found they ran into 6dB+ of power compression during a rock 'n' roll gig. The back of the magnet was hot, so I knew I'd been pushing it. I replaced them with 2x Faital Pro 10FH520 per side, which seem to deal with heat much better.
It'd be nice if the stage monitors didn't have to put up with that sort of abuse, but it's likely they will.
To give you an idea, I did a gig recently with 3x vocals (actually 3 members of S-Club 7) and backing tracks. 4x 12" 2-way PA speakers for monitors on a stage around 5m by 8m (16'x25'). The 300w/ch amps (one channel per speaker) were hard into the limiters for most of it. It was loud at -10dB when I tested.
I might try out the heatsink idea that's used with the LAB12 subs in the 12pi horn.
Cheers,
Chris
I see some of the newer pro drivers use heatsinks on the back of the ferrite magnets from factory.
An alu cast frame also helps, wish they could make a 15" fullrange model with cooling and cast frame.
At least you do not have to waste power on passive components.
I see Volt or what they're called have some alu frame extending to the front of the drivers.
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Would be interesting to attach a heat transfer lump and some copper pipes to try water cooling, just a closed loop with some sensors to trigger a small pump. But that's probably a bit novel.
An alu cast frame also helps, wish they could make a 15" fullrange model with cooling and cast frame.
At least you do not have to waste power on passive components.
I see Volt or what they're called have some alu frame extending to the front of the drivers.
Edit:
Would be interesting to attach a heat transfer lump and some copper pipes to try water cooling, just a closed loop with some sensors to trigger a small pump. But that's probably a bit novel.
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Yep, Volt put the heatsink on the front which probably improves power compression for conventionally-loaded cabinets. In a tapped horn, they'd probably suffer.
Water cooling would be neat, but possibly overkill. And heavy!
I was thinking of simply removing the sticker on the back of the magnet, attaching a heatsink (careful not to block the pole piece vent), and directing the bass reflex ports at it. I expect that'd keep things reasonably cool when hammered.
I'm still tinkering with stage monitor designs for this driver. I'll keep things updated if anything interesting comes up.
Chris
Water cooling would be neat, but possibly overkill. And heavy!
I was thinking of simply removing the sticker on the back of the magnet, attaching a heatsink (careful not to block the pole piece vent), and directing the bass reflex ports at it. I expect that'd keep things reasonably cool when hammered.
I'm still tinkering with stage monitor designs for this driver. I'll keep things updated if anything interesting comes up.
Chris
A lighter option than water cooling would be to use compressed air, a thin tube has the outlet over the surface of the magnet into a small sealed chamber. It cools as it expands and travels back through a bit thicker copper or alu pipe. To be let out on the rear of the speaker. Still a bit weird, but probably has real benefits in PA applications. Very much lighter than water cooling. And it would support using sealed boxes for PA.
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The pipe going to the back would need to have a downward slope from the magnet, so possible condensation would be let out. And a good compressor with proper decondensation system should be used.
Still a bit weird and novel probably, but I like to think about stuff like this, not always realistic to implement, but to be open for the various possibilities.
Edit:
The pipe going to the back would need to have a downward slope from the magnet, so possible condensation would be let out. And a good compressor with proper decondensation system should be used.
Still a bit weird and novel probably, but I like to think about stuff like this, not always realistic to implement, but to be open for the various possibilities.
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