Thanks for the reference, I will read up...
I know I was a bit coarse so I have to get back on this one. I would say that the sweet spot is within 15 degrees if you are really picky, 30 degrees is ok with me and all the way out to 45 degrees I find bearable, further out it's a notable degradation...
Re: tower drawings - I'm starting to have doubts on the fullrangeability of this driver but to give you some input the double driver / enclosure should compensate for a weaker bass but I don't know what happens if one is firing to the stars... theoretically you get (from the second driver) on axis only the lowest of sounds and some ceiling reflections... so the sweet spot will be bassier; by the way I don't think you can "glue" these enclosures to the wall because of the sky firing "dragon" (immediate vicinity to the wall - too much reflection from something too close).
You might be right, would it be better to fire it 45 degrees backwards towards the wall (like the so called BD-Pipe)?
I probably have to buy Martin J. King's MathCad models because the result seems way different from Hornresp. As an example, in this thread Paul made a stab at a ML-TQWT for the W5-2143 and ended up with a line length of only 50" (127 cm).
When I model the same kind of ML-TQWT in Hornreps using the Loundspeaker Wizard I end up with a line length of around 65" (165 cm). I also got a longer port but for a tad lower F3 of 47 Hz. So the question is, can I trust Hornresp or do I need to refactor its results somehow?
I also tried an Excel spread sheet that I don't know if it can be trusted. It ended up with a line length of 62" (157 cm). Closer to Hornresp but still far from Paul's values using King's models... If anyone has used both King's models and Hornresp, whats your take on this?
When I model the same kind of ML-TQWT in Hornreps using the Loundspeaker Wizard I end up with a line length of around 65" (165 cm). I also got a longer port but for a tad lower F3 of 47 Hz. So the question is, can I trust Hornresp or do I need to refactor its results somehow?
I also tried an Excel spread sheet that I don't know if it can be trusted. It ended up with a line length of 62" (157 cm). Closer to Hornresp but still far from Paul's values using King's models... If anyone has used both King's models and Hornresp, whats your take on this?
Ps. The question doesn't make sense in the context of "glue to the wall", what I meant was would it be better to fire it 45 degrees backwards instead of straight up? Both options would require it to not be up against a wall but witch one could be closest to the wall?
Some thick felt behind the speaker would help reduce that reflected treble energy.
http://www.roger-russell.com/omni/citationback.jpg
http://www.roger-russell.com/omni/citationback.jpg
I'm going to give you a simple honest opinion - I don't "believe" in the 2 drivers per enclosure solution, I used it for a double TABAQ (because a 3 incher is way to small for the lows... especially considering I wanted it to play bellow 60 hz and still have something to say perhaps even lower than 50hz) and in my opinion based in quick testing 2 x 3 inch driver has better bass in quality and quantity (even extra deep bass extension), when I added the second it just sounded right, the single 3 incher had problems was "chocking"; I can't promise you that it will work the same for a much larger cone but there are some indication that it might:
A quote from Audio Nirvana site: "Both speakers are wired in parallel for an effective impedance of 4 ohms. This combination gives more bass and effortless dynamics. It is a good choice for very large rooms or for people who prefer their music loud." DIY Loudspeakers. Loudspeaker kits. Full range loudspeakers. Audio Nirvana, Lowther, Fostex. Vacuum Tube Amplifiers For Sale
and this dual Mark Audio CHR70 enclosure - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planet-10-hifi/249666-chr-70a-gen3-dual-driver-pensil-3.html - the builder stated that he does not feel the need for a sub not could you guess the size of the cones when eyes closed.
So I don't believe in it, I'm convinced it works in a simple one driver on top of the other configuration - but! - there is a problem, those 2 sources will will cancel each other out at some frequencies and room positions (comb filtering) but you will never hear it... I personally suspect there are some imaging problems resulted from this mixture of 2 sound sources... other than that a 3 inch cone is better than most bigger cones at the full range act.
What I'm saying you can put then both in front and as close as possible and expect good results. As far as the enclosure is concerned - which will be about double the size - so this is no longer a small project it's a new house - you can simulate it better in Leonard audio when it comes to a mass loaded design; I personally used an analog way of tuning the enclosure - TABAQ architecture - select the apropriate height - any column shaped speaker will do as long as it's at least 70 cm long (a guestimate) and not longer that 1/4 wavelength of tuning frequency and select a 0.7 x Sd for port (integrated with walls) cross area and establish the length of the port after you build it by experimentation, mine got to be 4.5 cm long for a 58 hz tuning - no hz where involved just by listening; off course I knew that it was going to be close because of the way the simple TABAQ looked like; the volume was the most important size for that enclosure - that one came out of Hornresp and the fact that many other speakers where ok with TABAQ without changing the volume; mine got to be smaller / driver than the original TABAQ...
A quote from Audio Nirvana site: "Both speakers are wired in parallel for an effective impedance of 4 ohms. This combination gives more bass and effortless dynamics. It is a good choice for very large rooms or for people who prefer their music loud." DIY Loudspeakers. Loudspeaker kits. Full range loudspeakers. Audio Nirvana, Lowther, Fostex. Vacuum Tube Amplifiers For Sale
and this dual Mark Audio CHR70 enclosure - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/planet-10-hifi/249666-chr-70a-gen3-dual-driver-pensil-3.html - the builder stated that he does not feel the need for a sub not could you guess the size of the cones when eyes closed.
So I don't believe in it, I'm convinced it works in a simple one driver on top of the other configuration - but! - there is a problem, those 2 sources will will cancel each other out at some frequencies and room positions (comb filtering) but you will never hear it... I personally suspect there are some imaging problems resulted from this mixture of 2 sound sources... other than that a 3 inch cone is better than most bigger cones at the full range act.
What I'm saying you can put then both in front and as close as possible and expect good results. As far as the enclosure is concerned - which will be about double the size - so this is no longer a small project it's a new house - you can simulate it better in Leonard audio when it comes to a mass loaded design; I personally used an analog way of tuning the enclosure - TABAQ architecture - select the apropriate height - any column shaped speaker will do as long as it's at least 70 cm long (a guestimate) and not longer that 1/4 wavelength of tuning frequency and select a 0.7 x Sd for port (integrated with walls) cross area and establish the length of the port after you build it by experimentation, mine got to be 4.5 cm long for a 58 hz tuning - no hz where involved just by listening; off course I knew that it was going to be close because of the way the simple TABAQ looked like; the volume was the most important size for that enclosure - that one came out of Hornresp and the fact that many other speakers where ok with TABAQ without changing the volume; mine got to be smaller / driver than the original TABAQ...
@OP, other than "light" bass, do the original speakers produce enough SPL for you?
Is the narrow listening position/angle something that's a problem.
You could try sealed 2143s with an MLTL tower supporting them. Running the woofers from say 100hz down.
To me it doesn't seem effective to run quad 2143s. Though that would simply cabinet design and filtering over anything else..... As there'd be very little.
J.
Is the narrow listening position/angle something that's a problem.
You could try sealed 2143s with an MLTL tower supporting them. Running the woofers from say 100hz down.
To me it doesn't seem effective to run quad 2143s. Though that would simply cabinet design and filtering over anything else..... As there'd be very little.
J.
Enough SPL most of the time but sometimes not enough...
I thought about it, it's the F.A.S.T. part of the topic title. Only problem would be XO, I guess I have to go active if I want to cross the woofers @100 Hz. Size might also be a problem, not so much by me as with my wife...
You are probably right. My initial thought was a 1.5 arrangement. It would probably make more bass but would it be enough to remove the sub? It would help some with the SPL but would it be enough? Probably not but I could always experiment a bit with the two elements I already got, make one speaker and see what I get, just for the fun of it...
I would love to try a pair of W5-2143 in something like the Castle style microTowers but I lack the tools and knowledge to execute. So I just have to rethink my strategy and get back to my initial problem. The lack of SPL and low end when using the W5-2143 in a bog standard vented box.
I stumbled over Srednivashtar's wonderful dual PA130-8 XKi in my search for an alternative solution. A really inspiring project so I might try a dual W5-2143 XKi or another spin on the Karlsonator instead...
I stumbled over Srednivashtar's wonderful dual PA130-8 XKi in my search for an alternative solution. A really inspiring project so I might try a dual W5-2143 XKi or another spin on the Karlsonator instead...
EmuMannen,
If you are looking for more bass especially more "slam" in the 80-200 Hz range, a 5" wide-band driver will probably not satisfy you even if you do a Castle style cabinet. In my experience, even with wide-band driver-cab combos that dig pretty deep and sound decent with electronic music, the performance on rock music was not particularly good.
The up-firing Micro-Towers give a different and more spacious sound-stage, but perhaps at some cost of the point-source imaging that a single FR driver offers.
If you are looking for more bass especially more "slam" in the 80-200 Hz range, a 5" wide-band driver will probably not satisfy you even if you do a Castle style cabinet. In my experience, even with wide-band driver-cab combos that dig pretty deep and sound decent with electronic music, the performance on rock music was not particularly good.
The up-firing Micro-Towers give a different and more spacious sound-stage, but perhaps at some cost of the point-source imaging that a single FR driver offers.
Recently purchased four w5-2143's. Plan on using them as mids in an MTM. Extensive modeling proved that it can handle it's rated power as long as it is crossed ~125Hz 2nd order, I plan LR4. To add to this discussion I test run everything with minidsp active and have a 6.5" MLTL sub that'll do 26.5Hz easy. This little fast setup atm sounds wonderful... though think the w4-2142 would work a bit better due to improved dispersion.
Another pair are in the living room being broken in on the stereo. Another FAST system. My kid is humming to Bob Segar atm
I am aware of the baffle step loss on these (most 5s and smaller), my baffles are nearly 2 feet wide for a reason
Bought a new Delta Table Saw and DeWalt DWS780 miter saw, hoping to put to good use when it stops raining. NOAH MY ARK COMES FIRST!
Another pair are in the living room being broken in on the stereo. Another FAST system. My kid is humming to Bob Segar atm
I am aware of the baffle step loss on these (most 5s and smaller), my baffles are nearly 2 feet wide for a reason
Bought a new Delta Table Saw and DeWalt DWS780 miter saw, hoping to put to good use when it stops raining. NOAH MY ARK COMES FIRST!
Recently purchased four w5-2143's. Plan on using them as mids in an MTM. Extensive modeling proved that it can handle it's rated power as long as it is crossed ~125Hz 2nd order, I plan LR4. To add to this discussion I test run everything with minidsp active and have a 6.5" MLTL sub that'll do 26.5Hz easy. This little fast setup atm sounds wonderful... though think the w4-2142 would work a bit better due to improved dispersion.
Another pair are in the living room being broken in on the stereo. Another FAST system. My kid is humming to Bob Segar atm
I am aware of the baffle step loss on these (most 5s and smaller), my baffles are nearly 2 feet wide for a reason
Bought a new Delta Table Saw and DeWalt DWS780 miter saw, hoping to put to good use when it stops raining. NOAH MY ARK COMES FIRST!
How do you find the imaging with the wide baffle?
I think in terms of diffraction, so similar to a squashed cardioid shape wide. Drivers are flush mounted to the only section that is flat and that tapers into a large roundover. Imaging is wonderful, perhaps not the pinnacle, but greatly minimizes diffraction generated secondary sources. This width brings the body, the room source with it. Very desirable quality IMO
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