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Old 15th March 2004, 07:34 AM   #11
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The acoustical crossover frequency of a usual Manger setup is around 150 Hz or slightly higher.
The first-order highpass is indeed placed at 300 Hz giving a 3rd order highpass, together with the MSW, that is 6dB down (approx) at the crossover frequency. The MSW has a rising response at it's lower end due to it's resonance (it's QTS is quite high). That's why the first-order HP is placed that high.

The 3rd order lowpass is chosen accordingly to achieve a flat response.

Angel wrote:

Quote:
(a) The MSW gets less of the power, leading to less distortion, and less compression. At the same time, it still carries the human voice.
Have you actually done any measurements or listening tests to compare different crossover frequencies ?
While imagination tells me that you are basically right, you should also keep in mind that the MSW has an x-max of +- 3.5 mm and that it is almost a fullrange driver. The latter one being the main reason for using it (I have heard systems consisting of nothing more than an MSW, driven by a single-ended tube amp BTW).
If you relieve it from low-frequency content you increase woofer problems like IMD and resonances (specially with drivers using very stiff cone material) in exchange.

Regards

Charles
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Old 15th March 2004, 07:45 AM   #12
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calebay will build the boxes, put the drivers in place and hook the hole thing up to a rane 2-way electronic crossover...
http://www.rane.com/ac22b.html

then he is able get some sound and play with the xover point - he will get to know his new system - and then later he can start to experiment with different filter topologies.
and ofcause the rane isn't actually ultra highend but it will bring the speakers alive and calebay will have alot of fun from the beginning......
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Old 15th March 2004, 08:03 AM   #13
navin is offline navin  India
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where and at what price does one get the manger drivers?
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Old 15th March 2004, 11:14 AM   #14
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Default proposal

I would start with a Zerobox 109 kit as a basis for your own design. Chances that you will match or better the performance of the 109 with your first DIY attempt are pretty low. Besides that an existing and proven concept is always useful as a reference. From there I would first replace the passive crossover with an active one. Again start with the crossover parameters Manger proposes (1st order HP @350Hz, 3rd order LP @80Hz) and try to match or better the original result. Experiment with different capacitors (HP), different crossover points and different amplifiers to drive the MSW and the woofer. Keep the passive crossover to compare it with your active bi-amped version.

Once your familiar with the sound and have an idea what's good or bad I would start experimenting with different woofers and different concepts (sealed, reflex, dipole) while still using the original 109 cabinet (MSW only). After you have found an optimal driver and integration you will be ready for your own final cabinet design.

Looks like a long way (it is!) but you will have a working speaker at any time and the risk that your endavour will fail is much lower.
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Old 15th March 2004, 12:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Once your familiar with the sound and have an idea what's good or bad I would start experimenting with different woofers and different concepts (sealed, reflex, dipole) while still using the original 109 cabinet (MSW only).
One that I definitely wouldn't try is a principle with an "exhaust".
It doesn't make sense to use a single driver for reasons of better transient performance and then use a reflex enclosure.

Regards

Charles
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Old 15th March 2004, 12:37 PM   #16
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Quote:
I would start with a Zerobox 109 kit as a basis for your own design
what if we want a much bigger sound - more fullranger with a big bassunit......then the 109 is no option.

Quote:
an existing and proven concept is always useful as a reference
very true.....

Quote:
start with the crossover parameters Manger proposes (1st order HP @350Hz, 3rd order LP @80Hz
these parameters can only be used if its the passiv version, the impedance plays a role here - but not in an active solution.....

Quote:
After you have found an optimal driver and integration you will be ready for your own final cabinet design.
and when you are designing a new box, you are starting all over again - all parameters have changed.....so your stuck with the same problems once more.


those who know me, knows my opinion about speakerbuilding - "it can't be done, i'd rather send a man to the moon than designing the "perfect" speaker".......but this project really could work - because there is only one xover point and its rather low + closed box for the bassunit........
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Old 15th March 2004, 01:55 PM   #17
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Quote:
One that I definitely wouldn't try is a principle with an "exhaust".
Charles: I agree with you although there are designs with an "exhaust". There was once a project (developed by Walter Fuchs, SAC) in a German DIY magazine. Other examples: http://www.audioelevation.de or and http://www.hm-moreart.de/4.htm. I can't comment on their sound (or measured transient response) though.

Quote:
these parameters can only be used if its the passiv version, the impedance plays a role here - but not in an active solution.....
tbla: I don't say that these are the only best parameters for any application but this is what Manger recommends for it's Zerobox designs and I was referring to the 109. Apart from that nothing prevents you from keeping the impedance correction part of the passive crossover. The 1st order HP filter is anyway for free and only a matter of the right value of the coupling cap between the preamp and the power amp driving the MSW.

Quote:
and when you are designing a new box, you are starting all over again - all parameters have changed.....so your stuck with the same problems once more.
My proposal was in the direction of "prototyping" based on something that already works pretty well. You are proposing the "big bang" approach that (in my opinion) only works if you are very experienced and all important parameters are known in advance. Your new baby will be more or less immune to serious modifications and if getting the desired final result is not only a question of fine tuning you will be in trouble. By looking at Calebay's (thread starter) plan and Charles' warning regarding designs with an "exhaust" you will get an idea what I mean.
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Old 15th March 2004, 02:08 PM   #18
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Once your familiar with the sound and have an idea what's good or bad I would start experimenting with different woofers and different concepts (sealed, reflex, dipole) while still using the original 109 cabinet (MSW only). After you have found an optimal driver and integration you will be ready for your own final cabinet design.
Thats what im doing now. Going for a closed enclosure for the manger and trying different solutions for the bass. So far ive got a focal audiom woofer in a onkenenclosure and 4 peices of 12" peerless SLS drivers that would possibly fit nice in a H-baffle. At least i hope so but then they were cheap to buy.

If those doesnt work, well there are lot and lots of options to try out =)

Regards // Doxa
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Old 15th March 2004, 02:24 PM   #19
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Default hi navin

hi navin

exactly how much can the manger performance come up to _ to justify the 109 price tag ? (going by the mum prices)

has anyone tested it with an rta _ dual trace input versus output to judge the flatness to frequency

i yet guess it is expensive as other wise any good engineer will be quick down the path to make similar versions , if he can get hold of it easily

_ at real down to earth prices

when i can afford the test equipment i dont rule my self coming up with similarities to this driver design easily

as i am nuts on full ranges

i guess my chinese / taiwanese counterparts who already have the test equipments are on work at it already

what tickles is that all the test equipment originates from germany itself

i guess who has the test equipment will have the last laugh in this driver technology

as such drivers are easy to assemble _ once you have fabricated the parts

and a high degree of quality standard can be easily maintained (with a good degree of production speed) provided the raw materials are precision engineered and material tech looked into

as for the accoustic lens in front of the driver - its a piece of cake

neways take care

suranjan

transducer design engineer
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Old 15th March 2004, 02:35 PM   #20
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Default oh! another thing

the motor structure seems to be employing the best of two worlds into one

1 differential coil drive
2 xbl motor - (reversed in some ways)

i may be a bit way off but i doubt wholly ; ive just had a 2 min look at their site

suranjan
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