Like a fool I recently sold my Sachiko double-back-loaded horns that were loaded with Dayton PS220-8 drivers. Now 4 months later I'm missing that BLH/Full-range driver sound terribly.
I'm curious what's the best sounding BLH with an 8" driver you've ever heard? And do you believe these BLH would sound better than my Sachikos did?
TIA
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
I'm curious what's the best sounding BLH with an 8" driver you've ever heard? And do you believe these BLH would sound better than my Sachikos did?
TIA
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Well... That's kind of a hard question. Best I've heard was the Carfrae Little Big Horn, years ago, with a sub for low bass. Very good horn design, also a very good 8" driver (AER). I heard the Hedlund horn then, with a pair of higher end Lowther drivers in them, altogether thinner and a little woody sounding. I built Bicor 200 horns, related to the Fidelio horns, using Lowther drivers. Not very low, not very impressive. I heard the Cornu spiral horns for 8" drivers, with Lowther EX4 drivers. Bass went low and was very clean, but rolled off. Listening is off-axis, treble gets soft too. It locks into place with DSP, but requires quite a lot of EQ then.
In the end, it's all pro's and cons. Depends on what you want, if you use EQ and qhich driver you want. My sub-BiB (calculated Fc is ~70 Hz, in-room response down to 35 Hz) makes a lot of bass, very dynamic and lively. It's a bit crude and theoretically there isn't much to prevent midrange coming through the entire horn, but I'm sure that with a fullrange driver with a mass roll-off that's not too high and some good damping/lining, it will work splendidly. But that would be confined to corners, so less freedom in placement and not the optimal spacious sound perhaps.
In the end, it's all pro's and cons. Depends on what you want, if you use EQ and qhich driver you want. My sub-BiB (calculated Fc is ~70 Hz, in-room response down to 35 Hz) makes a lot of bass, very dynamic and lively. It's a bit crude and theoretically there isn't much to prevent midrange coming through the entire horn, but I'm sure that with a fullrange driver with a mass roll-off that's not too high and some good damping/lining, it will work splendidly. But that would be confined to corners, so less freedom in placement and not the optimal spacious sound perhaps.
Ivo,
Thanks for your input and very sound reasoning. I'm hoping people will tell me what BLHs they've heard --and hopefully used in their system's for awhile-- and what they did and didn't like about them. I should also mention that while I'd like to use an 8" full-range driver, I'd love to hear about any, BLH/Full-range driver combo, that's impressed the person who heard it!
Thanks Again,
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Thanks for your input and very sound reasoning. I'm hoping people will tell me what BLHs they've heard --and hopefully used in their system's for awhile-- and what they did and didn't like about them. I should also mention that while I'd like to use an 8" full-range driver, I'd love to hear about any, BLH/Full-range driver combo, that's impressed the person who heard it!
Thanks Again,
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
>>> I recently sold my Sachiko double-back-loaded horns...
What! Those were FOREVER speakers! At least you got to enjoy them for an extended period of time.
I haven't heard many back horns other than BIBs and a few Lowther based systems in NYC at stereo shows. None are perfect and I suspect yours weren't either. But the musical enjoyment you experienced must have been wonderful.
Rather than lamenting your decision to sell why not rejoice in your experience and consider open baffle? Once I went OB I haven't gone back (yet). If you put a similar amount of care and time into OB as you did with back horns you should be able to conjure something amazing - perhaps even more amazing than the beautiful Sachikos?
Keep us posted.
What! Those were FOREVER speakers! At least you got to enjoy them for an extended period of time.
I haven't heard many back horns other than BIBs and a few Lowther based systems in NYC at stereo shows. None are perfect and I suspect yours weren't either. But the musical enjoyment you experienced must have been wonderful.
Rather than lamenting your decision to sell why not rejoice in your experience and consider open baffle? Once I went OB I haven't gone back (yet). If you put a similar amount of care and time into OB as you did with back horns you should be able to conjure something amazing - perhaps even more amazing than the beautiful Sachikos?
Keep us posted.
A few years back I built the Austin 166
It was amazing, but you have to have corners , so not for everyone.
Sadly I lost them in a house fire and now have a different room style.
http://p10hifi.net/FH/download/Austin-A166Mk2-plans.pdf
Ed
It was amazing, but you have to have corners , so not for everyone.
Sadly I lost them in a house fire and now have a different room style.
http://p10hifi.net/FH/download/Austin-A166Mk2-plans.pdf
Ed
I built a set of DecWare corner horns several years ago.
Love them.
Very clean lower end, good bass down to 50 hz or so.
Good efficiency compared to everything else.
Needs corners and a large enough room to allow the bass notes to develop ( about 25 feet diagonal).
Mine have Fostex 166ES full range drives, but just about anything with a Qts of 25 or lower should work. Might take a bit of modification for 8 inch drivers.
The 6 inchers work great.
These are big and heavy and are considerably more complex to build than simple box cabinets, but well worth it.
I have posted construction notes and a review here. You should be able to find those in the archives.
Dennis
Yeah Zilla I know they were FOREVER speakers ---now! I just got so caught up with what those OB, Spatial Audio M3 Turbo S speakers did right! Even now when I first sit down I'm quite impressed with the M3 speakers. But as I sit there listening I start missing the warmth & intimacy the Sachiko/PS220-8 combo had that always got me engaged in the music. Don't misunderstand me these Spatial Audio M3's speakers do so much so right and when I can get another 2 to 3 feet between my listening position and where the M3's are setup, their sonic attributes really start to shine through!
Unfortunately if I push the M3's further back towards the wall behind them ---{so that I can get the M3's to be 2 to 3 feet further away from where I sit}--- the soundstage collapses, the bass starts to disappear and all the sonic traits people love OB speakers for, slowly start to disappear as they get closer and closer to the rear wall. And unfortunately my listening position is right up against the wall that the M3's face! So I cannot move my listening position any further away from the M3's. It's a Catch-22 if ever there was one, I cannot move the M3's back towards the rear wall and I cannot move my listening position away from the M3's! Even worse due to it's shape I cannot rearrange my setup against the other wall either.
I've been looking into the Hungarian Sonido Aion BLHs loaded with their SFR200a drivers as a possible new direction. But I'd like to talk with ScottMoose before making any new moves in the BLH/Full-range driver combo direction...
Thetuneguy1954 (Tom Scata)
I only have a moment as it's coming up on 1am here, but my tuppence worth:
Take any & all listening impressions with a dose of salt, except in the most general sense. Back horns are no different to any other speaker -their behaviour will vary from room to room over the enclosure's functional BW, so what works in one space will not necessarily behave in the same fashion in another. Above that region (c.300Hz or so) you're into direct-radiation territory, which, with certain caveats, will remain static & inherent to the driver.
Since the laws of physics don't change very often
all other things being equal, bigger is better -the greater the terminus area, the lower the frequency to which it will be impedance-matched and the more linear the response will be. Obviously, most things are not equal, so that comes with its own caveats. Boundary loading can be valuable if the room construction & configuration allows it to be exploited. Note that technically 'better' performance is not always what people want from back-horns either. They can have a dose of their own character, especially those that produce a portion of their BW through resonant action (i.e. have undersized termini) which some gravitate toward.
Take any & all listening impressions with a dose of salt, except in the most general sense. Back horns are no different to any other speaker -their behaviour will vary from room to room over the enclosure's functional BW, so what works in one space will not necessarily behave in the same fashion in another. Above that region (c.300Hz or so) you're into direct-radiation territory, which, with certain caveats, will remain static & inherent to the driver.
Since the laws of physics don't change very often
all other things being equal, bigger is better -the greater the terminus area, the lower the frequency to which it will be impedance-matched and the more linear the response will be. Obviously, most things are not equal, so that comes with its own caveats. Boundary loading can be valuable if the room construction & configuration allows it to be exploited. Note that technically 'better' performance is not always what people want from back-horns either. They can have a dose of their own character, especially those that produce a portion of their BW through resonant action (i.e. have undersized termini) which some gravitate toward.
Hi Dave!
Longtime no see. It's funny that you'd mention the Victor because I was recently on the Woden site and checking out the Vulcan cabinets! Have you heard the Vulcan's as opposed to the Sachiko>Kirishima's? If so what were your impressions? One area the Vulcan covers that was my ONLY real "complaint" about the Sachikos was having to look at the two large mouths on the Sachiko's face. That said, if the Sachiko's would sound better than the Vulcans I'd still go with the Sachikos. Thanks for your input as I value what you say...
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Scott, hello my friend. I'd like to try and get your opinion on the Sachiko vs Vulcan cabinets for FE206EN or better yet, FE206ES-R drivers. Accepting the fact that "a speaker's behavior will vary from room to room over the enclosure's functional BW, and what works in one space will not necessarily behave in the same fashion in another..." Would you please tell me what sonic differences I might expect when using the Vulcan cabinets vs the Sachiko cabinets I used to own? TIA for your time & help with these present problems I brought upon myself...
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Hi Dave!
First thanks for taking the time to help me dig myself out of yet another audio hole I dug myself into. I still remember you helping me find replacement drivers years back when I accidentally destroyed the sonics of my FE206ES-R drivers. Like an idiot I didn't trust the professionals. So I applied more of my friend's proprietary cone treatment after he went home and accidentally left it at my home. That idiot move on my part caused the FE206ES-R drivers to go from sounding glorious and three dimensional to sounding sonically dead and flat!
But back to my present issue at hand. From previously reading the Frugal-horn website I understood that Scott made the Kirishima to compensate for differences when Fostex upgraded the FE206E, that the Sachiko was designed for, to their FE206EN drivers. Is that correct so far? So now if I'm understanding you completely correctly, you're telling me the Vulcan is Scott's all-out statement cabinet when using the Fostex FE206EN drivers! Is that also correct? If so, then that's definitely going on the top of my list of new replacement cabinets!
Thanks for your help,
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
First thanks for taking the time to help me dig myself out of yet another audio hole I dug myself into. I still remember you helping me find replacement drivers years back when I accidentally destroyed the sonics of my FE206ES-R drivers. Like an idiot I didn't trust the professionals. So I applied more of my friend's proprietary cone treatment after he went home and accidentally left it at my home. That idiot move on my part caused the FE206ES-R drivers to go from sounding glorious and three dimensional to sounding sonically dead and flat!
But back to my present issue at hand. From previously reading the Frugal-horn website I understood that Scott made the Kirishima to compensate for differences when Fostex upgraded the FE206E, that the Sachiko was designed for, to their FE206EN drivers. Is that correct so far? So now if I'm understanding you completely correctly, you're telling me the Vulcan is Scott's all-out statement cabinet when using the Fostex FE206EN drivers! Is that also correct? If so, then that's definitely going on the top of my list of new replacement cabinets!
Thanks for your help,
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
FE206EN work reasonably well in Karlson cabinets - I'e had it in the old (1954) K12, a 1.6 cubic foot K-coupler and the 1.8 cubic foot (20.25" H x 14.5"W x 11.75" deep coupler in this video. It might be done better. Whatever you go with, consider Triticum audio as the builder. He did perfect lock-mitre joints on this 0.62 scaled K15 which is made of 15mm Baltic birch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpGkYpAcUdw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaWvtfI6FiA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpGkYpAcUdw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaWvtfI6FiA
That was the impetus, but Kirishima works better than Sachiko with the older drivers to.
Yes.
BTW, we had both FE166eN2, FE166eSR, and FE166eSReN in Victor.
dave
Hedlund Horns
I think that Hedlund Horns are pretty good for backhorns. I had (and still have in storage now) a pair made of MDF which I purchased second hand. According to Jan Hedlund, the backhorn without folds reduces early reflections back through the driver. I never confirmed this claim, but it make sense. I used Lowther DX4 (15 ohm variety), which worked out very well. I added sandbags to the compression chamber to balance the stronger DX4 drivers. The 15 ohm Lowthers don't have the "shout" (2000 hz peak) that the lower impedance Lowthers have.
I put in felt in the compression chamber to reduce early reflections and also lined the bottom of the backhorn with a light foam to absorb some of the midrange coming from the backhorn.
I added lots of screws, particularly around the compression chamber, and added metal posts in the backhorn and at the horn opening to help stiffen the horn. These steps improved dynamics, particularly in the midbass.
At the end of the day, I still think that the Lowther DX4s are better on open baffle, although the Hedlund Horns are a lot simpler speaker to work with.
Retsel
I think that Hedlund Horns are pretty good for backhorns. I had (and still have in storage now) a pair made of MDF which I purchased second hand. According to Jan Hedlund, the backhorn without folds reduces early reflections back through the driver. I never confirmed this claim, but it make sense. I used Lowther DX4 (15 ohm variety), which worked out very well. I added sandbags to the compression chamber to balance the stronger DX4 drivers. The 15 ohm Lowthers don't have the "shout" (2000 hz peak) that the lower impedance Lowthers have.
I put in felt in the compression chamber to reduce early reflections and also lined the bottom of the backhorn with a light foam to absorb some of the midrange coming from the backhorn.
I added lots of screws, particularly around the compression chamber, and added metal posts in the backhorn and at the horn opening to help stiffen the horn. These steps improved dynamics, particularly in the midbass.
At the end of the day, I still think that the Lowther DX4s are better on open baffle, although the Hedlund Horns are a lot simpler speaker to work with.
Retsel
Hi Freddi!
I appreciate your suggestion about using a Karlson cabinet, but I really loved my Sachikos ---{8 years is the longest I've ever used a pair of speakers}-- so I'll most likely be going with Scott's Vulcan design for my new speakers. As far as using Triticum audio goes, I checked them out on facebook and it looks like they do outstanding work. They only "problem" would be the cost of shipping the finished cabinets from their place in Almira, Washington, to my place in Orlando, FL.
Thanks for your input,
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
Hi Retsel,
My friend has two pairs of Hedlund horns. One pair is loaded with a pair of Lowthers and the other pair has a pair of very sensitive 8" woofer drivers and are used as "subwoofers" and he actually preferred the sound of my Sachikos over his Hedlunds! So I'll stick with Scott's Vulcan design. But thanks for your advice...
Thetubeguy1954 (Tom Scata)
About backhorn speakers
Is your friend Paul Butterfield? Paul and I have communicated numerous times about Lowthers, Hedlund Horns and about a lot of other audio stuff.
Do you know why the Sachikos speakers betters the Hedlund Horns? I am interested to know what speaker design elements work with these speakers.
The other backhorns speakers which interest me are the front horn varieties. These include the Beauhorn and TP-1. If I recall correctly, Thorsten Loesch tried different backhorn speakers and liked the beauhorn speakers the best.
While backhorn speakers are interesting from an economy or simplicity perspective. To improve the midrange, you end up cutting out the bass from the speakers. Then at that point, why have the backhorn anyways? I don't see a way around that. This is why I moved on.
I recall that others, including Paul Butterfield (who you are probably referring to) and Dave Slagle used two backhorn speaker cabinets, one for the midrange, and another for the bass. I think that Dave has since moved on from this, using front horns and other bass cabinets. So is Paul still using two Hedlund Horn speakers. I believe that Paul went to an extra wide pair of Hedlund Horns with a 15 inch bass drivers in them for the bass. Is he using 8 inch drivers now?
Retsel
Is your friend Paul Butterfield? Paul and I have communicated numerous times about Lowthers, Hedlund Horns and about a lot of other audio stuff.
Do you know why the Sachikos speakers betters the Hedlund Horns? I am interested to know what speaker design elements work with these speakers.
The other backhorns speakers which interest me are the front horn varieties. These include the Beauhorn and TP-1. If I recall correctly, Thorsten Loesch tried different backhorn speakers and liked the beauhorn speakers the best.
While backhorn speakers are interesting from an economy or simplicity perspective. To improve the midrange, you end up cutting out the bass from the speakers. Then at that point, why have the backhorn anyways? I don't see a way around that. This is why I moved on.
I recall that others, including Paul Butterfield (who you are probably referring to) and Dave Slagle used two backhorn speaker cabinets, one for the midrange, and another for the bass. I think that Dave has since moved on from this, using front horns and other bass cabinets. So is Paul still using two Hedlund Horn speakers. I believe that Paul went to an extra wide pair of Hedlund Horns with a 15 inch bass drivers in them for the bass. Is he using 8 inch drivers now?
Retsel
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