Hello Diyaudio!
I hope it OK that i post here.
So im interested in building a new speaker setup, but i'm having a hard time deciding which type of speakers. As i try the research, i seems like only more questions appear.
I already build a TaBAQ system with Dayton rs100 in them. I love the clearity of the sound while being fearly cheap and small and simple to build. There's just one problem. I have now blown the speakers a second time. I think i am too happy to play loud music, or at least so load that i reach the boundary of what these speakers can take. I realize that even though im in complete awe of the performance of the TaBAQ, i think there just not moving enough air.
I'd like to build a new set that can play louder, but doesn't compromise the clarity of the sound. I listen to alot of electronic experimental music, like Aphex Twin, Flying Lotus, SBTRKT and so on where the imagin is what makes the music imo.
Another detail about the speakersystem is that it has to fit in a room that is 2.5 meters x 6 meters i will link a picture. Preferably the speakers should have the posibility to hang underneath the roof.
I hope that some of you would like to help me deciding a speaker build, or at least suggest viable options
My budget is actually cheap as possible. Lets say around 200$ max.
Here are pics of the room: My Room - Album on Imgur
Regards Elias
I hope it OK that i post here.
So im interested in building a new speaker setup, but i'm having a hard time deciding which type of speakers. As i try the research, i seems like only more questions appear.
I already build a TaBAQ system with Dayton rs100 in them. I love the clearity of the sound while being fearly cheap and small and simple to build. There's just one problem. I have now blown the speakers a second time. I think i am too happy to play loud music, or at least so load that i reach the boundary of what these speakers can take. I realize that even though im in complete awe of the performance of the TaBAQ, i think there just not moving enough air.
I'd like to build a new set that can play louder, but doesn't compromise the clarity of the sound. I listen to alot of electronic experimental music, like Aphex Twin, Flying Lotus, SBTRKT and so on where the imagin is what makes the music imo.
Another detail about the speakersystem is that it has to fit in a room that is 2.5 meters x 6 meters i will link a picture. Preferably the speakers should have the posibility to hang underneath the roof.
I hope that some of you would like to help me deciding a speaker build, or at least suggest viable options
My budget is actually cheap as possible. Lets say around 200$ max.
Here are pics of the room: My Room - Album on Imgur
Regards Elias
RS100 is only 87.5 sensitive @2.83V and only 30W power rating and only 3" cone. So you have no bass and you are turning it up to try to feel the bass. You turn it up so much that you melt the voice coil to kill the drivers. Don't worry, you're not the first one to do that!
I suggest you add a Dayton RS225 woofer, to make a two way speaker. 8" driver can make better bass because larger cone grips the air much better at low frequency, and it can handle a lot more power than RS100 while playing low freq so you can crank it louder without harm. RS100 is protected from low bass signal by a crossover filter so it can play loud without burning up.
Put the RS100 in a sealed box volume described on Parts express website. Put the RS225 in the vented box volume and port size described by part express website. Put a resonance damping filter on the RS100:
mh-audio.nl - Home
Put a 1st order crossover filters between the speakers with crossing frequency at the same freq of the baffle step for the woofer.
mh-audio.nl - Crossover Networks
mh-audio.nl - Home
You may need help from us choosing the crossover parts, maybe you want to use steeper filters, idk.
RS225 is 4dB louder than RS225, so there is your baffle step correction built in.
If you hang it from the ceiling in a corner, you will increase the bass response, so you will need less baffle step correction, or maybe none, especially with ported box for RS225. So you might not like it in the corner, too much bass, wouldn't that be nice?
If you hang it up high, make sure you tilt it pointed down at you so the drivers are similar distance from listener to avoid FR problems.
Maybe you can use your existing boxes again, if they are big enough to hold 8" woofer with recommended box volume? The two speakers need to be in their own separated compartments, not sharing the air.
If you don't want to do the woofer/crossover, you could put four RS100 in each box, wire them series/parallel to maintain 4 ohm load. Then mount the boxes in a corner to boost the bass. That would give you 4 times more power handling. Then you could add a baffle step correction filter to boost the bass.
mh-audio.nl - Home
With baffle step correction filter you will need more amplifier power to play loudly. Make sure the amp does not clip as that can also harm the speakers.
Putting the speaker in the corner will also boost the bass, but maybe not enough. Easy to try it, any corner will work the same for a test. Tri corner has most powerful bass boost effect. Good luck!
I suggest you add a Dayton RS225 woofer, to make a two way speaker. 8" driver can make better bass because larger cone grips the air much better at low frequency, and it can handle a lot more power than RS100 while playing low freq so you can crank it louder without harm. RS100 is protected from low bass signal by a crossover filter so it can play loud without burning up.
Put the RS100 in a sealed box volume described on Parts express website. Put the RS225 in the vented box volume and port size described by part express website. Put a resonance damping filter on the RS100:
mh-audio.nl - Home
Put a 1st order crossover filters between the speakers with crossing frequency at the same freq of the baffle step for the woofer.
mh-audio.nl - Crossover Networks
mh-audio.nl - Home
You may need help from us choosing the crossover parts, maybe you want to use steeper filters, idk.
RS225 is 4dB louder than RS225, so there is your baffle step correction built in.
If you hang it from the ceiling in a corner, you will increase the bass response, so you will need less baffle step correction, or maybe none, especially with ported box for RS225. So you might not like it in the corner, too much bass, wouldn't that be nice?
If you hang it up high, make sure you tilt it pointed down at you so the drivers are similar distance from listener to avoid FR problems.
Maybe you can use your existing boxes again, if they are big enough to hold 8" woofer with recommended box volume? The two speakers need to be in their own separated compartments, not sharing the air.
If you don't want to do the woofer/crossover, you could put four RS100 in each box, wire them series/parallel to maintain 4 ohm load. Then mount the boxes in a corner to boost the bass. That would give you 4 times more power handling. Then you could add a baffle step correction filter to boost the bass.
mh-audio.nl - Home
With baffle step correction filter you will need more amplifier power to play loudly. Make sure the amp does not clip as that can also harm the speakers.
Putting the speaker in the corner will also boost the bass, but maybe not enough. Easy to try it, any corner will work the same for a test. Tri corner has most powerful bass boost effect. Good luck!
Hey Richidoo,
Thanks alot for the answer! i apreciate it alot!
So by sending the bass freqs to another speaker the rs100 will be able to go loader too?
I was also very tempted by the TaBAQ build from bjoern because it didn't have crossovers and my understanding is, that by only having two drivers, left and right, i wouldn't have to take the problem into account of mutiple drivers blurring the sound.
By the way, the driver didn't melt coil. It simply pushed the cone of the edges of the driver.
I looked into the links you posted, and i'm already overwhelmed. I think i might try to find somebody elses build with the same speakers. Otherwise, do you know where i can find a guide that expains a little more? I have no idea of what Rmin and Ohm.at is, which i have to type into the calculator for the resonance dampning filter.
I'm also wondering if there might be a full range single driver design that could serve my needs as it seems much simpler to make. Im more into carpentry than electronics, but i would like to learn more ofcourse.
I hope you would like to help me! Thank you once again.
Thanks alot for the answer! i apreciate it alot!
So by sending the bass freqs to another speaker the rs100 will be able to go loader too?
I was also very tempted by the TaBAQ build from bjoern because it didn't have crossovers and my understanding is, that by only having two drivers, left and right, i wouldn't have to take the problem into account of mutiple drivers blurring the sound.
By the way, the driver didn't melt coil. It simply pushed the cone of the edges of the driver.
I looked into the links you posted, and i'm already overwhelmed. I think i might try to find somebody elses build with the same speakers. Otherwise, do you know where i can find a guide that expains a little more? I have no idea of what Rmin and Ohm.at is, which i have to type into the calculator for the resonance dampning filter.
I'm also wondering if there might be a full range single driver design that could serve my needs as it seems much simpler to make. Im more into carpentry than electronics, but i would like to learn more ofcourse.
I hope you would like to help me! Thank you once again.
Another consideration goes. If i choose to run with your suggestion, what do you think of the idea of placing the rs100 under the ceiling in the corners and then have the rs225 on the floor? I though that i could simply run a cable between the rs225 and the rs100
The picture you see is basically my house, so that's why im so concerned about placement and of how much space it takes.
The picture you see is basically my house, so that's why im so concerned about placement and of how much space it takes.
Having such a long difference between drivers isn't really the ideal situation as they will lobe badly (you will hear the sound is coming from 2 distinct sources) If you can, you should have them within 1/4 of the crossover wavelength of each other.
Where will you order the drivers and what is the maximum size of the enclosure? Some drivers that have good availability in US are more expensive and rarer in Europe and vice versa. I'll take a look at the selection and check which would be suitable. I'll simulate an enclosure along with crossover for you when I get back home later today.
Where will you order the drivers and what is the maximum size of the enclosure? Some drivers that have good availability in US are more expensive and rarer in Europe and vice versa. I'll take a look at the selection and check which would be suitable. I'll simulate an enclosure along with crossover for you when I get back home later today.
Hey Mayuri,
Thanks for posting!
Last time i ordered from loudspeakerfreaks.com.
About the maximun size its hard to tell, but one of the reasons i chose to build the TaBAQ was because of the small size. If you look at the pictures of the room, the one where im point towards the window in the back of the room, you see two speakers hangin in the corners. They are 60x24x25 cm. and they are about the size im willing to go for unless a slightly bigger size will mean alot to the sound quality.
I'm very happy that you want to help me out!
Regards Elias.
Thanks for posting!
Last time i ordered from loudspeakerfreaks.com.
About the maximun size its hard to tell, but one of the reasons i chose to build the TaBAQ was because of the small size. If you look at the pictures of the room, the one where im point towards the window in the back of the room, you see two speakers hangin in the corners. They are 60x24x25 cm. and they are about the size im willing to go for unless a slightly bigger size will mean alot to the sound quality.
I'm very happy that you want to help me out!
Regards Elias.
Eliasp,
I think you are the prime candidate for dual mini Karlsonators using Dayton's RS100 drivers. They are rated at 60W max each, and will give you the power and bass you are looking for.
The mini Ks will be reasonable in size, since your room is not that big anyway. and the output of the mini Ks will be greater than your current TABAQs.
I think you are the prime candidate for dual mini Karlsonators using Dayton's RS100 drivers. They are rated at 60W max each, and will give you the power and bass you are looking for.
The mini Ks will be reasonable in size, since your room is not that big anyway. and the output of the mini Ks will be greater than your current TABAQs.
You told me that you've already blown two speakers, so I put something together that should prove very, very hard to blow while sounding good. It uses two drivers I know well: A subwoofer from Peerless SLS line and Vifa TC9FD.
830667*Peerless SLS-213 8 inch coated paper cone woofer | Loudspeaker freaks
TC9FD18-08*Vifa 3 1/2 inch full range driver | Loudspeaker freaks
The woofer wants an enclosure around 30l. You can shape it as you want, it's not very critical. However, I recommend you make it as flat as possible, maybe even slightly wedge-shaped to fit nicely into the corner. This would eliminate the need for BSC circuitry. The width of the enclosure should be at least 25cm, so same width as the original. You can make it wider as well if you want. The SLS-8 should be the top driver on the enclosure so it is closer to the ceiling with the TC9FD below it, with the drivers as closely situated as possible. The TC9FD should be quite close to the bottom edge of the cabinet with both drivers vertically aligned to eachother but off-center in the cabinet (for example, if the width is 25cm the driver centers could be around 11cm from the side wall).
The TC9FD does well in a sealed enclosure of about 1l. This fits nicely inside the enclosure, just make sure that the drivers won't share the same airspace. As we are talking about sealed enclosures, the volumes are not that critical. However, make sure the acoustic centers of the drivers are aligned. What this means is that when you look the front baffle from the side, the drivers dust caps are on same vertical level. The SLS-8 is designed to be surface-mounted so it's the best course. For example if you use 15mm material thickness for the front baffle and rear-mount the TC9FD (as it is designed to be, it has glued gasket on front) the acoustic centers of the drivers are very close to eachother. You should round the mounting hole of the TC9FD to be 45 angle outwards.
The drivers efficiency matches very closely with the woofer being a tiny bit more efficient. That, along with the placement very close to corner makes me think that you are not going to need any level-matching on this system. However, you are going to need a crossover: a 2mH coil for the bass (you should order one with 1mm wire or thicker) and a 150uF capacitor for full-range. Simply solder the parts between the + terminal of the driver and the + wire from amplifier, then connect the drivers in parallel. Make sure your amplifier can handle 4 ohm loads, as the final impedance will be something around 4,6 ohms.
An example enclosure would be 30cm wide, 15cm deep and 70cm tall with 15mm material thickness and internal braces. The centers of drivers are spaced 13cm from the side and the bottom of TC9FD is 18cm from the bottom of the enclosure. The internal enclosure for the TC9FD is 14cm wide, 10cm tall and 6cm deep and made with 9mm material thickness. Be sure that the FR enclosure is airsealed from the woofer enclosure. Both enclosures are stuffed with polyfill or equivalent. Fiberglass or rockwool are also perfectly fine.
Hopefully this will help you get started. I had a busy day, so no time to simulate the drivers. However, I've tested all the 3 models of the SLS subwoofer line and they have never dissapointed me. Same goes for the TC9FD, so you should have a winning combo on your hands.
830667*Peerless SLS-213 8 inch coated paper cone woofer | Loudspeaker freaks
TC9FD18-08*Vifa 3 1/2 inch full range driver | Loudspeaker freaks
The woofer wants an enclosure around 30l. You can shape it as you want, it's not very critical. However, I recommend you make it as flat as possible, maybe even slightly wedge-shaped to fit nicely into the corner. This would eliminate the need for BSC circuitry. The width of the enclosure should be at least 25cm, so same width as the original. You can make it wider as well if you want. The SLS-8 should be the top driver on the enclosure so it is closer to the ceiling with the TC9FD below it, with the drivers as closely situated as possible. The TC9FD should be quite close to the bottom edge of the cabinet with both drivers vertically aligned to eachother but off-center in the cabinet (for example, if the width is 25cm the driver centers could be around 11cm from the side wall).
The TC9FD does well in a sealed enclosure of about 1l. This fits nicely inside the enclosure, just make sure that the drivers won't share the same airspace. As we are talking about sealed enclosures, the volumes are not that critical. However, make sure the acoustic centers of the drivers are aligned. What this means is that when you look the front baffle from the side, the drivers dust caps are on same vertical level. The SLS-8 is designed to be surface-mounted so it's the best course. For example if you use 15mm material thickness for the front baffle and rear-mount the TC9FD (as it is designed to be, it has glued gasket on front) the acoustic centers of the drivers are very close to eachother. You should round the mounting hole of the TC9FD to be 45 angle outwards.
The drivers efficiency matches very closely with the woofer being a tiny bit more efficient. That, along with the placement very close to corner makes me think that you are not going to need any level-matching on this system. However, you are going to need a crossover: a 2mH coil for the bass (you should order one with 1mm wire or thicker) and a 150uF capacitor for full-range. Simply solder the parts between the + terminal of the driver and the + wire from amplifier, then connect the drivers in parallel. Make sure your amplifier can handle 4 ohm loads, as the final impedance will be something around 4,6 ohms.
An example enclosure would be 30cm wide, 15cm deep and 70cm tall with 15mm material thickness and internal braces. The centers of drivers are spaced 13cm from the side and the bottom of TC9FD is 18cm from the bottom of the enclosure. The internal enclosure for the TC9FD is 14cm wide, 10cm tall and 6cm deep and made with 9mm material thickness. Be sure that the FR enclosure is airsealed from the woofer enclosure. Both enclosures are stuffed with polyfill or equivalent. Fiberglass or rockwool are also perfectly fine.
Hopefully this will help you get started. I had a busy day, so no time to simulate the drivers. However, I've tested all the 3 models of the SLS subwoofer line and they have never dissapointed me. Same goes for the TC9FD, so you should have a winning combo on your hands.
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Hey Mayuri
Thanks for the comprehensive answer.
I forgot to metion that im running with a Dual PA 5060 amp that only take 8 ohms, but i might find another amp then.
I'm confused about the "slight wedge shape" you mentioned. I have linked a picture with two interpretations of the wedge shape and i hope you could help me getting clear what you meant. I will work on some sketches and post them so you or/and other can see if im making a mistake that i'm not aware of.
I was also thinking about tilting the speakers a little downwards. If you look at the picture of my room where the speakers are hanging in the corners. You see a laptop on the table and that's where i normally sit and do stuff while listening to music. It would be sad if all the higher freqs where just floating above my head. What do you think about it?
Once again thank you for helping me out!
Thanks for the comprehensive answer.
I forgot to metion that im running with a Dual PA 5060 amp that only take 8 ohms, but i might find another amp then.
I'm confused about the "slight wedge shape" you mentioned. I have linked a picture with two interpretations of the wedge shape and i hope you could help me getting clear what you meant. I will work on some sketches and post them so you or/and other can see if im making a mistake that i'm not aware of.
I was also thinking about tilting the speakers a little downwards. If you look at the picture of my room where the speakers are hanging in the corners. You see a laptop on the table and that's where i normally sit and do stuff while listening to music. It would be sad if all the higher freqs where just floating above my head. What do you think about it?
Once again thank you for helping me out!
I meant making the side on next to the wall a bit longer than the side next to the center of space. Thus, front baffle would be angled a bit towards the center.
Instead of angling the speaker down you could change the enclosure shape a bit if you are good with woodworking. If not, angling the speakers is also a good idea A cubical box is the worst possible shape for internal standing waves. If you can make it a bit trapezoidal by making the front baffle angled towards you, it's a lot better already. This is exactly the same as what I'm going to do for the next speakers I'll build for myself.
About the dual, according to the manual it can deliver 2x130W to 4 ohms. I see nothing pointing to it only being usable with 8 ohms. http://dual.pytalhost.eu/pa5060s/5030-01.jpg
Instead of angling the speaker down you could change the enclosure shape a bit if you are good with woodworking. If not, angling the speakers is also a good idea
A cubical box is the worst possible shape for internal standing waves. If you can make it a bit trapezoidal by making the front baffle angled towards you, it's a lot better already. This is exactly the same as what I'm going to do for the next speakers I'll build for myself. About the dual, according to the manual it can deliver 2x130W to 4 ohms. I see nothing pointing to it only being usable with 8 ohms. http://dual.pytalhost.eu/pa5060s/5030-01.jpg
TABAQ LARGE
Hi Elias,
this might be an idea ? I have not build one myself.
Regards
Bjørn
PS From FirstOff
I am currently using a pair of TABAQ Large using the 1611SAF. It is quite impressive. Sounds more like a decent 8 inch in the bass department. I was going to put in a tweeter on the current TABAQ, but with this new one, I think I'm going to hold off on that.
Hi Elias,
this might be an idea ? I have not build one myself.
Regards
Bjørn
PS From FirstOff
I am currently using a pair of TABAQ Large using the 1611SAF. It is quite impressive. Sounds more like a decent 8 inch in the bass department. I was going to put in a tweeter on the current TABAQ, but with this new one, I think I'm going to hold off on that.
Hello Bjørn!
This looks very appealing too as i'm already very happy about TABAQ build. I'm Considering how much more power this Large build can take compared to the build i already have. It would be sad if the new build ended up blowing again.
Another consideration would be to make it as a folded TABAQ version and then hang it in the corners, slightly tilted down and maybe a little into the room? I find it difficult to figure what the setup should be in such a long room (2,5m x 6,5m).
I thought just to take This design and scale the size accordingly.
What appeals me to the TABAQ is still that i will be sure that the imaging stands out clearly as there are only two speakers and that construction og the TABAQ will extend the lower freqs satisfying me needs to feel some bass without it blurring out. Are these assumptions correct?
When i look at the design you linked it says that the BSC is to be calculated. How should i get around this?
What also appeals me is, that i am mainly a woodworker and not that good at electronics (yet).
Thanks for taking a look at my thread Bjørn!
This looks very appealing too as i'm already very happy about TABAQ build. I'm Considering how much more power this Large build can take compared to the build i already have. It would be sad if the new build ended up blowing again.
Another consideration would be to make it as a folded TABAQ version and then hang it in the corners, slightly tilted down and maybe a little into the room? I find it difficult to figure what the setup should be in such a long room (2,5m x 6,5m).
I thought just to take This design and scale the size accordingly.
What appeals me to the TABAQ is still that i will be sure that the imaging stands out clearly as there are only two speakers and that construction og the TABAQ will extend the lower freqs satisfying me needs to feel some bass without it blurring out. Are these assumptions correct?
When i look at the design you linked it says that the BSC is to be calculated. How should i get around this?
What also appeals me is, that i am mainly a woodworker and not that good at electronics (yet).
Thanks for taking a look at my thread Bjørn!
You have the right principle on that project. The BSC can be calculated on for example EDGE software which allows you to place the driver on the baffle freely. Give it a go, it's quite easy to use. If you make a MLTL, you can't angle the baffle to produce a trapezoidal enclosure easily. Instead, you should angle the whole speaker.
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