Hi everyone,
I have been enjoying my 8" Audio Nirvana Alnicos in just the basic 2.8 enclosure for a few years now.
I recently moved house going from a more "dead" environment (close field listening but carpeted floor and minimal reflections), to a much more "live" room with glossy floorboards, big side windows and high ceilings.
I am not as satisfied with the sound anymore, and am hoping to rebuild my speaker boxes into dipoles instead but am looking for some advice.
I have attached a picture of my living room.
The thing I'm most wondering about is should I upgrade my 8" speakers to 15" drivers (more specifically Audio Nirvana drivers) and place them in open baffles (~50cm width) with bass support from separate Z-baffle dipole units, or keep my 8" drivers, put them in a slimmer baffle (~25cm) and attach that baffle to the front of Z-baffle dipole units? (In case you are wondering, xrk's KaZbas Z-baffles can happily supply bass to 700Hz, that is what I am planning on building so a slim baffle full range paired with those should still be ok I think!)
I am really attracted to the idea of large drivers and effortless dynamics, but the 15" drivers would need baffles at least to 50cm (1.5ft) wide and need to be pulled out from the wall at least 1m (3ft) to sound good.
Calculating my couch (listening position) to speakers 1m out from wall would give only 2.3m (7.5ft) distance between the drivers and the listening position.
My main question is, and particularly to people who have experience with 15" full range drivers, is 2.3m listening distance too near-field for these kind of drivers?
Should I wait until my next house to get 15" drivers and reuse my 8"s in slimmer baffles?
If you were me, what would you out of those two options?
Thanks all for your thoughts in advance!
I have been enjoying my 8" Audio Nirvana Alnicos in just the basic 2.8 enclosure for a few years now.
I recently moved house going from a more "dead" environment (close field listening but carpeted floor and minimal reflections), to a much more "live" room with glossy floorboards, big side windows and high ceilings.
I am not as satisfied with the sound anymore, and am hoping to rebuild my speaker boxes into dipoles instead but am looking for some advice.
I have attached a picture of my living room.
The thing I'm most wondering about is should I upgrade my 8" speakers to 15" drivers (more specifically Audio Nirvana drivers) and place them in open baffles (~50cm width) with bass support from separate Z-baffle dipole units, or keep my 8" drivers, put them in a slimmer baffle (~25cm) and attach that baffle to the front of Z-baffle dipole units? (In case you are wondering, xrk's KaZbas Z-baffles can happily supply bass to 700Hz, that is what I am planning on building so a slim baffle full range paired with those should still be ok I think!)
I am really attracted to the idea of large drivers and effortless dynamics, but the 15" drivers would need baffles at least to 50cm (1.5ft) wide and need to be pulled out from the wall at least 1m (3ft) to sound good.
Calculating my couch (listening position) to speakers 1m out from wall would give only 2.3m (7.5ft) distance between the drivers and the listening position.
My main question is, and particularly to people who have experience with 15" full range drivers, is 2.3m listening distance too near-field for these kind of drivers?
Should I wait until my next house to get 15" drivers and reuse my 8"s in slimmer baffles?
If you were me, what would you out of those two options?
Thanks all for your thoughts in advance!
Attachments
add some clutter and you'll have better acoustics - that bare wall could use Mexican devil masks, Tiki masks - I hate foam on the walls after using it many years ago with Magnepans. Do you have some baffle step correction on those ANs ? what's the rough source impedance of your amplifier or amplifier type? Ah - maybe you don't need BSC with the weaker Alnico motor (?)
btw, my stamped frame Super8 ferrite ANs started with fs ~42Hz and over a couple of years, stiffened enough to raise it to around 60Hz - about a half octave raise and staying there after hours of LF sine drive of 6mm p-p
btw, my stamped frame Super8 ferrite ANs started with fs ~42Hz and over a couple of years, stiffened enough to raise it to around 60Hz - about a half octave raise and staying there after hours of LF sine drive of 6mm p-p
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Hi guys, thanks so much for your responses.
I am embarrassed to say yes, they're not in 2.8 enclosures but monitors...
embarrassing that I forgot my own speakers size!
The dissatisfaction with the sound is on a few points
I know I can address the last point with better eq/placement for my sub, and I have just purchased a minidsp which is in the mail for that - but the minidsp won't turn my drivers from 8" to 15"ers. As I've heard some people say, "there's no replacement for displacement"!
Given those parameters, I read around and thought that maybe larger drivers in open baffles would give me the sound I'm seeking, as:
However if I can achieve those parameters using my 8s then I'd be happy, and they would take up less space and then I'd have higher WAF.
I have read that maybe Karsonators with my 8s could give me what I'm looking for, with better treble dispersion and better bass response... But not sure of course.
On the point of WAF most room treatments will be difficult to do was we're both fans of a minimalist, less cluttered look. The couch in the back left is there temporarily, we both want to move it somewhere else. We have blinds, but they're not heavy or particularly sound absorbent. The front wall is bare as it is our projector "screen".
If I can upgrade the speaker cabinets and/or drivers that is what I would like to try first at this point.
All that to say.. Are there any cabinet/baffle designs you guys think could give the 8"ers I have that upgrade in sound? Or do I need to go bigger drivers in baffles or certain cabinets to get that?
The three main thoughts swimming around in my head are:
8" in Karlsonators
8" in slim baffle with KaZba dipole woofers underneath
15" in open baffle with helper KaZbas beside
I am embarrassed to say yes, they're not in 2.8 enclosures but monitors...
embarrassing that I forgot my own speakers size!The dissatisfaction with the sound is on a few points
- There seems to be a lack of "air" in the sound, the drivers feel "boxed in" to my ears
- I want that sense of effortless dynamics that larger drivers offer. However if I can achieve that in the smaller 8" drivers then all the better!
- I feel like I want a little more mid-range and low range detail than I'm getting
- The bass from a sub is a bit sloppy and I want it to be "tighter"
I know I can address the last point with better eq/placement for my sub, and I have just purchased a minidsp which is in the mail for that - but the minidsp won't turn my drivers from 8" to 15"ers. As I've heard some people say, "there's no replacement for displacement"!
Given those parameters, I read around and thought that maybe larger drivers in open baffles would give me the sound I'm seeking, as:
- Open baffles would give that sense of "air" in the sound
- Larger drivers would have the dynamics and detail that I think I want
However if I can achieve those parameters using my 8s then I'd be happy, and they would take up less space and then I'd have higher WAF.
I have read that maybe Karsonators with my 8s could give me what I'm looking for, with better treble dispersion and better bass response... But not sure of course.
On the point of WAF most room treatments will be difficult to do was we're both fans of a minimalist, less cluttered look. The couch in the back left is there temporarily, we both want to move it somewhere else. We have blinds, but they're not heavy or particularly sound absorbent. The front wall is bare as it is our projector "screen".
If I can upgrade the speaker cabinets and/or drivers that is what I would like to try first at this point.
All that to say.. Are there any cabinet/baffle designs you guys think could give the 8"ers I have that upgrade in sound? Or do I need to go bigger drivers in baffles or certain cabinets to get that?
The three main thoughts swimming around in my head are:
8" in Karlsonators
8" in slim baffle with KaZba dipole woofers underneath
15" in open baffle with helper KaZbas beside
Actually, scratch that... I think that 15"s will be too large for my living room.. I will probably need to wait until my next house to have a dedicated listening room and then an excuse to have the 15s.... 
Thanks all for your responses - but if you have any cabinet ideas to improve the 8" Audio Nirvana Alnicos please let me know as I am keen to drop the monitors and build a different enclosure/baffle for them.
At the moment like above I'm thinking the 8"s in slim baffles mounted on top of KaZbas or 8"s in Karlsonators and a rebuild of the subwoofer.. But ideas are of course most welcome!
Thanks all for your responses - but if you have any cabinet ideas to improve the 8" Audio Nirvana Alnicos please let me know as I am keen to drop the monitors and build a different enclosure/baffle for them.
At the moment like above I'm thinking the 8"s in slim baffles mounted on top of KaZbas or 8"s in Karlsonators and a rebuild of the subwoofer.. But ideas are of course most welcome!
If you were happy with the sound in your previous room, but not anymore, I think you just answered your own question.
First of all, the sub placed in the centre of the wall is just asking for reverberation cancellations. Move it toward a corner.
Having a table right in front like that is also asking for reflections.
And all the symptoms you've described are probably from the room. Bass is not tight because you have multiple reflections arriving to your ears at slightly different times, making it sound more like a buzz without shape than a clear thump.
Lack of mids and.air because you have phase issues and cancellations higher up, creating dips in the FR.
Boxiness sound because you have a room node and it creates a sharp rise somewhere between 800Hz and 2kHz.
You have choices.
- Make absorption panels on the walls, using cloth of the same or slightly different shade to cover them, keeping the minimalist look.
- Hanging heavy cloth from the ceiling, make your own design.
- Adding stuff in the corners of the room, a big flower pot, a column, a tall bookshelf, etc....
- Move to a different room and start all over again.
- Change your wife (joking!)
I would try to fix the room before investing a significant amount of money on a new speaker setup, which I believe will still sound bad in that room.
If you really want to spend money, get the mic with the miniDSP and run some frequency sweeps to see all the room effects. At least then, you will not be trying shots in the dark, hoping it fixes your problems.
First of all, the sub placed in the centre of the wall is just asking for reverberation cancellations. Move it toward a corner.
Having a table right in front like that is also asking for reflections.
And all the symptoms you've described are probably from the room. Bass is not tight because you have multiple reflections arriving to your ears at slightly different times, making it sound more like a buzz without shape than a clear thump.
Lack of mids and.air because you have phase issues and cancellations higher up, creating dips in the FR.
Boxiness sound because you have a room node and it creates a sharp rise somewhere between 800Hz and 2kHz.
You have choices.
- Make absorption panels on the walls, using cloth of the same or slightly different shade to cover them, keeping the minimalist look.
- Hanging heavy cloth from the ceiling, make your own design.
- Adding stuff in the corners of the room, a big flower pot, a column, a tall bookshelf, etc....
- Move to a different room and start all over again.
- Change your wife (joking!)
I would try to fix the room before investing a significant amount of money on a new speaker setup, which I believe will still sound bad in that room.
If you really want to spend money, get the mic with the miniDSP and run some frequency sweeps to see all the room effects. At least then, you will not be trying shots in the dark, hoping it fixes your problems.
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My vaguely self serving earlier suggestion aside, some excellent advice from perceval and others above.
It's the room - not all smaller listening spaces are hopeless, they just take time and experimentation - there may be several additional ingredients in the final mix, and you may not need to change gear at all.
Of course, if you do, look forward to a plethora of helpful advice, at least 60% of which will be contradictory
It's the room - not all smaller listening spaces are hopeless, they just take time and experimentation - there may be several additional ingredients in the final mix, and you may not need to change gear at all.
Of course, if you do, look forward to a plethora of helpful advice, at least 60% of which will be contradictory
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Hi guys,
Thanks again for the further advice.
I think the idea of bookshelves/tall plants in the corners might go down well with WAF.
Can't put anything in between the speakers on the wall, as that's our projector screen, but some kind of absorbant foam on the panel of the coffee table facing the speakers might be possible.
I have invested in a UMIK-1 as well as the MiniDSP (the USBStreamer to be exact - for use with some I2S dacs) - so that I can measure and see what's happening with reflections and frequency spikes/dips.
Just a question, do dipoles tend to do better or worse in a room with stray reflections compared with monopoles?
Thanks again for the further advice.
I think the idea of bookshelves/tall plants in the corners might go down well with WAF.
Can't put anything in between the speakers on the wall, as that's our projector screen, but some kind of absorbant foam on the panel of the coffee table facing the speakers might be possible.
I have invested in a UMIK-1 as well as the MiniDSP (the USBStreamer to be exact - for use with some I2S dacs) - so that I can measure and see what's happening with reflections and frequency spikes/dips.
Just a question, do dipoles tend to do better or worse in a room with stray reflections compared with monopoles?
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First off, if you went with the 15" you don't need any supporting woofers - these large cones, even open baffle, dig plenty deep enough but they need a big box: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/217893-bigun-audio-nirvana-super-15-a.html
I'd work with the speakers you have as their size looks just the ticket for your living space. You might be interested in this: Subwoofer
I've not heard this sub, but it looks to be great value and has a lot of fans on the internet - it's low cost but needs a separate amp.
I'd work with the speakers you have as their size looks just the ticket for your living space. You might be interested in this: Subwoofer
I've not heard this sub, but it looks to be great value and has a lot of fans on the internet - it's low cost but needs a separate amp.
Perceval - I've never used JRiver, or any other media player aside from stock iTunes or Windows Media, and frankly haven't yet needed anything more elaborate than the most rudimentary EQ function in iTunes. Would JRiver accommodate access to mike output (UMIK or others) to allow for EQ and REW, should that be considered necessary?
Hi chrisb, perceval:
I plan on utilizing Equalizer ATO for Operating System-wide equalization and crossover, in tandem with the USB Streamer.
The USB Streamer can stream 8 channels of I2S audio with a master sync clock to 4 dacs.
I picked up the UMIK-1 in addition to the order, so I can measure where crossover points should be set, and can perform room correction stuff.
The DACs I got are Sabre 9023s (x4) from eBay (DAC Sabre ES9023 Analog I2S 24 BIT 192 KHZ Decoder Board Mode Conversion P6B8 | eBay)
Bigun: I've read a lot about your project with the 15s, it's inspirational!
I would be planning on putting the 15s in the slimmest baffle as possible for me though, for WAF. Something like 50cm (19.6"). If I did that I think I would need something to augment the bass, for sure.
But for now, a funny story:
I was at the hardware store yesterday with the wife looking at their wood supplies.
When I have asked if the 15"ers would be ok she has said on a few occasions that "just make the speakers the way you want them, I'll just deal with it".
But I know that the 15"s are a big step up from the 8"s we have at the moment, so I wanted to make sure.
So I showed her a sheet of ply that is the exact size of baffle that the 15"s would use, and compared it to the other possible speaker plan in my head, which based off a Linkwitz Orion (25cm baffle, half the width).
When she saw the 50cm wide baffle, she started looking around the ceiling of the shop with her arms crossed and fingers tapping on her arm.
Not good. haha!
So the Orions it is! Yay!!
PS the funny thing is I heard that a tall plant in the corners of the room can help diffuse reflections and are good for sound.
The wife is excited about getting plants inside, unbeknown to her that they serve two purposes...
However when we were outside looking at the plants we came upon a huge green leafy monstrosity - which she thought would be awesome for inside the house.
So I said to her, "wait, the 50cm baffle is too big but this massive plant is ok?"
She burst into laughter and agreed that the 50cm baffle isn't so bad compared to a big indoor plant.
But I'm in no mood to push my luck haha!
The subwoofer plan Bigun posted looks great too - it's hard to choose between an Orion style project which would flex my woodworking skills, and a Cornu Sprial Horn with bucket sub project which should have very high WAF and decent sound to boot!
What to do, what to do!
I plan on utilizing Equalizer ATO for Operating System-wide equalization and crossover, in tandem with the USB Streamer.
The USB Streamer can stream 8 channels of I2S audio with a master sync clock to 4 dacs.
I picked up the UMIK-1 in addition to the order, so I can measure where crossover points should be set, and can perform room correction stuff.
The DACs I got are Sabre 9023s (x4) from eBay (DAC Sabre ES9023 Analog I2S 24 BIT 192 KHZ Decoder Board Mode Conversion P6B8 | eBay)
Bigun: I've read a lot about your project with the 15s, it's inspirational!
I would be planning on putting the 15s in the slimmest baffle as possible for me though, for WAF. Something like 50cm (19.6"). If I did that I think I would need something to augment the bass, for sure.
But for now, a funny story:
I was at the hardware store yesterday with the wife looking at their wood supplies.
When I have asked if the 15"ers would be ok she has said on a few occasions that "just make the speakers the way you want them, I'll just deal with it".
But I know that the 15"s are a big step up from the 8"s we have at the moment, so I wanted to make sure.
So I showed her a sheet of ply that is the exact size of baffle that the 15"s would use, and compared it to the other possible speaker plan in my head, which based off a Linkwitz Orion (25cm baffle, half the width).
When she saw the 50cm wide baffle, she started looking around the ceiling of the shop with her arms crossed and fingers tapping on her arm.
Not good. haha!
So the Orions it is! Yay!!
PS the funny thing is I heard that a tall plant in the corners of the room can help diffuse reflections and are good for sound.
The wife is excited about getting plants inside, unbeknown to her that they serve two purposes...
However when we were outside looking at the plants we came upon a huge green leafy monstrosity - which she thought would be awesome for inside the house.
So I said to her, "wait, the 50cm baffle is too big but this massive plant is ok?"
She burst into laughter and agreed that the 50cm baffle isn't so bad compared to a big indoor plant.
But I'm in no mood to push my luck haha!
The subwoofer plan Bigun posted looks great too - it's hard to choose between an Orion style project which would flex my woodworking skills, and a Cornu Sprial Horn with bucket sub project which should have very high WAF and decent sound to boot!
What to do, what to do!
themrcul, did you mean Equalizer APO? Sounds like a nice tool for Windows, but it will only work with audio apps that do not take over the sound system of the computer. So apps like JRiver won't probably work as they need some drivers, like Asio, to access the audio part of the computer.
Still, looks interesting: https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/
chrisb, yes, you can use JRiver to take over the system's sounds, they have a driver that will grab any sound coming out, route it through JRiver to process it before sending it to the soundcard. Then, the sweep generated by REW is grabbed by JRiver, applies EQ crossover, and other corrections, and sends it to the sound card, you can then record the effects of the correction in your room.
On the Windows side only, though.
Doesn't work with the Mac version.
Still, looks interesting: https://sourceforge.net/projects/equalizerapo/
chrisb, yes, you can use JRiver to take over the system's sounds, they have a driver that will grab any sound coming out, route it through JRiver to process it before sending it to the soundcard. Then, the sweep generated by REW is grabbed by JRiver, applies EQ crossover, and other corrections, and sends it to the sound card, you can then record the effects of the correction in your room.
On the Windows side only, though.
Doesn't work with the Mac version.
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Hi perceval,
Yes, not taking over the operating system's audio device is ideal for me, as I would like to play blu-rays and youtube videos through the computer system as well, and have those program's audio get equalized and crossed over properly before output.
I use Winamp still for music playback and love that program immensly!
Yes, not taking over the operating system's audio device is ideal for me, as I would like to play blu-rays and youtube videos through the computer system as well, and have those program's audio get equalized and crossed over properly before output.
I use Winamp still for music playback and love that program immensly!
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