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"Wall-integrated" corner loaded line array with Vifa TC9 drivers
"Wall-integrated" corner loaded line array with Vifa TC9 drivers
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Old 5th December 2017, 05:42 PM   #551
oneplustwo is offline oneplustwo  United States
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Wow, that's impressive. Good to know what one extreme is so I can decide what to dial in to my own situation. I think it will likely be first reflection points and perhaps a diffuser at the rear depending on what I do with the wet bar. Good news is the nature of my corner line arrays means the floor and ceiling bounces don't need addressing. And there is no real rear reflection (meaning behind the speakers).

But I am excited to get the room as good as I can get it within reason. Like I mentioned previously, just throwing the roxul up as I did had a big impact on the sound stage. There were a couple times where I had to confirm that my center channel wasn't active because the "phantom center effect" was so convincing.

I may try to address the edges at the projector screen somehow as I have a feeling that may be the next biggest fish to fry as far a reflections go. Might not be super easy to do so in a subtle way though. And I want to see if I can measure that reflection somewhere once I get a chance to dig into that analysis a bit. The edge is not very far from the speaker but based on RA7's experience, my guess is it will show up!
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Old 5th December 2017, 06:21 PM   #552
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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As soon as you make new measurements we can hunt for it .

We'd need a close look at the first 15 to 20 ms of the IR and the corresponding view of the filtered IR would help too.
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Old 6th December 2017, 09:52 AM   #553
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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For room ideas you might want to read this thread for some interesting information.

I've linked to the discussion of the last ~24 hours, it has been mentioned earlier in this same thread. I've experienced the differences. I think it is a valid point.

Depending on favourite kind of music, they might need different approaches.
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Old 6th December 2017, 11:12 AM   #554
koldby is offline koldby  Denmark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wesayso View Post
For room ideas you might want to read this thread for some interesting information.

I've linked to the discussion of the last ~24 hours, it has been mentioned earlier in this same thread. I've experienced the differences. I think it is a valid point.

Depending on favourite kind of music, they might need different approaches.
Very interesting link as they are discussing the different preferences in room behaviour for different kinds of music types.
Live orchestral music listeners(Field recordings as Geddes calls them) tend to prefer more early reflections than studio music listeners and Geddes says he has come to the conclusion, that you have to decide, what kind of music you want to play, when determining what kind of room treatment you are going to use, as you cannot make a room that is good for both! What a bummer!!
I want both!!
Well maybe your(wesayso) solution is the right one: Control (eliminate) the early reflections and add controlled reflections by means of a Haas Kicker/surround speakers to suit the music you are playing, having a set of curves/levels/delays for each kind of music?
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Old 6th December 2017, 11:25 AM   #555
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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That is the idea I'm pursuing a lot lately . It seems to work just fine!
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Old 6th December 2017, 09:46 PM   #556
oneplustwo is offline oneplustwo  United States
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Interesting read. I tend to prefer "dryer" reproductions but I've never had a chance to play with things as you guys have been with kicker/surrounds. I have a full 7.2 system so the surrounds are there to toy with if I go down that path. First things first though!
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Old 6th December 2017, 10:11 PM   #557
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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Until I took away most room queues I think I had that same idea. I could have written that same sentence back then.
But taking away the room had other downsides for my perception of the music.
I had always planned on trying ambient channels, I just never realized how much I actually needed them .

If you talk about a "dryer" reproduction, what is your experience with that? Most rooms do add more than we generally are aware of. Our brain is very good at filtering those parts out, make us believe it sounds way better (or dryer) than it actually is. Just for fun, record the sound you get at the listening spot and listen to that recording trough headphones. It will show you just how good those semi automatic filters are.

Only after removing a lot of my early room queues I became more aware of the role they can play in our perception. Things like stereo cross talk become much more obvious after taking away the random reflections. This set me on an entirely different quest. Most of it I've written down in that huge thread of mine.

Now I (almost) get to pick how much room I'd like. I really don't add all that much, still it's crucial for my listening pleasure. It completes the believable stage in front of me.

Consider going to a concert in a bad room, much less enjoyable. What I want is a good room, this can enhance/supplement the experience of that front stage. I do have a couple of favourite places to go see some bands I like. Other venues can disappoint in comparison.

Just to be clear, I don't hear sounds coming from the back. I just get a more believable rendition of what's there in the recording. It's much like a sound hologram in front of you. That's my preference. It may not be yours, no way to know until you try.
There is a big difference between a studio environment and a listening environment. I used to think I wanted the first, now I know better, I actually want a listening environment. Jim1961's awesome room is a dedicated listening environment. Much better than mine will ever be. On first sight it looks like a studio control room. The meticulously planned arrivals of the sound wave are planned for enjoyment. That includes the use of that Haas kicker.
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Old 6th December 2017, 11:20 PM   #558
oneplustwo is offline oneplustwo  United States
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Originally Posted by wesayso View Post

Just for fun, record the sound you get at the listening spot and listen to that recording trough headphones. It will show you just how good those semi automatic filters are.
So you're saying that your brain doesn't semi-automatically filter out what is recorded at the listening position when it's played back through headphones? In which case I would presumably NOT like the sound played through the headphones?

Do you need a good microphone for this or can I just use my UMIK?
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Old 6th December 2017, 11:37 PM   #559
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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I use the impulses gathered at the listening position for that test.
Same way we use convolution for correcting a speaker one can also use convolution to "listen" to the sweet spot. I used my measurement mic for that, yes.

I won't tell you what you'll hear, you be the judge of that. If headphones don't do it for you, you "could" play back the recording trough the speakers. Effectively doubling the room effects. I would not recommend that though. I actually did that, had a hard time to unlearn it afterwards. In other words, my "semi automatic filter" was broken for a while. That's why I call it semi automatic. One can learn to hear the room.

Think of it like this, all trough life your brain has been learning to ignore what's less important, making you hear the important parts better and more clearly. We each probably differ in the way we perceive things. However we do use it to perceive our world around us. You can actually develop these skills. I was curious enough to do just that. It may spoil some very beneficial tools for you. You might like to try headphones first. I'm betting it will be enough to make my point clear.

I can't answer if you will like the sound recorded. But play it back and compare it to the original song and you should notice the differences.
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Old 9th December 2017, 04:05 AM   #560
oneplustwo is offline oneplustwo  United States
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Got my DATS today and did the calibration and impedance sweeps. It's not super pretty, but nothing terrible either as far as I can tell. Pink is left, purple is right.
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File Type: png left side DATS.PNG (302.0 KB, 38 views)
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