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Old 24th February 2004, 10:00 PM   #11
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Whizzer cones have phase problems, are there drivers with whizzers that are flat within a couple db?
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Old 24th February 2004, 10:23 PM   #12
ronc is offline ronc  United States
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Ever hear a Lowther?
Better yet ever hear a Lowther driven horn with a SET?
I have here some polk audio monitor speakers that i use to test my amp designs. They CLAIM a +/- 2 db flat FR. They also sound like crud.
Sometimes it isint a flat FR that counts , its the total sound.
Phase is not an issue with a wizzer if its designed correctly.
At present i have Fostex Fe-206e drivers in a TQWT, waiting for me to get off my lazy butt and finish the design for a rear loaded front firing 50Hz horn.Sure i could design and build a 40hz horn as the Fs of the 206e is well within the range. But then i would have to let the horns live in my apt and myself live in a pup tent.Besides i probably would get evicted.
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Old 24th February 2004, 11:32 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by ron clarke
Ever hear a Lowther?
Better yet ever hear a Lowther driven horn with a SET?
I have here some polk audio monitor speakers that i use to test my amp designs. They CLAIM a +/- 2 db flat FR. They also sound like crud.
Sometimes it isint a flat FR that counts , its the total sound.
Phase is not an issue with a wizzer if its designed correctly....
No I haven't heard a Lowther. There are a lot of speakers I haven't listened to that I should. I've been pretty dissapointed with most speakers I've heard in the last 10 - 20 years. Here's one that I liked a lot http://www.revelspeakers.com/products/overview.asp?ID=1 - until I put on the Matrix soundtrack and they fell flat on their face (not literally). The top end of the spectrum is beatiful on those speakers, but throw heavy bass at them and the run home to mommy (unless it was the $10,000 giant fancy-assed amps the store was running them with?).

Yeah I know, flat does not nesc. indicate good. But not flat does indicate not good, to some extent. I was asking 'cause a dip/bump in the response somewhere around a few khz could indicate a phase problem with the whizzer.

The back of the whizzer and the front of the whizzer are in opposite phase, if both sides are not "exposed" to the listener then I don't think it is a "whizzer", at that point, it needs a new name because it is significantly different.

I don't imagine a whizzer could be "properly designed" such that the frequency response is not significantly different from different listening angles. Of course, that is an issue with most speakers. But, if you have to sit within a relatively small "sweet spot" then you almost may as well just use headphones...
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Old 25th February 2004, 12:16 AM   #14
Bull is offline Bull  United Kingdom
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How about the Eminence Beta 12LT dual cone fullrange with freq range of 45hz-10khz and put that in a rear loaded horn cab.And put a piezo ceramic disc on centre of whizzer cone and connect it ,with small pin sized holes, thread wire though to terminals. The speaker will now reproduce 40hz-20khz very good for a 12 inch dual cone fullrange and piezo disc.
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Old 25th February 2004, 12:36 AM   #15
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Whizzers do have phasing issues, especially the Lowthers, PM6A shown. A whizzer with no phasing issues is one that's so well damped it's just dead weight.

Click the image to open in full size.

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Old 25th February 2004, 12:49 AM   #16
ronc is offline ronc  United States
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Sorry GM, you know i have a great respect for you and your knowledge , but my present wizzer containing 206e is by far one of the better drivers i have heard.
The non wizzer Fe-168e was a disaster, it was actually painful to listen to, had a tiny sweet spot and i just didnt like the sound.All i am stating is , that if there is a phase problem, i cant hear it.And if i cant hear it then its acceptable to me.
I have heard lowthers and even though they were IMO lacking in bass, one of the most musical and realistic sounding drivers i have ever heard.
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Old 25th February 2004, 01:21 AM   #17
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I miss your point, Ron. How does what you hear with different design drivers contradict my statements and Dan Wiggins' measurement? Indeed, most FR drivers with no whizzer has phasing issues also due to either multiple doping densities and/or decoupling rings.

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Old 25th February 2004, 01:30 AM   #18
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I spent a few weeks trying to design a good piezo tweeter, no luck, some were OK but none seemed really great. Maybe the old Motorolla piezo elements we had are not the best? They looked the same as the ones I'd seen on the Iconoclast's tweeter.

Parts Express sells some Piezo (pizeo? forgot the spelling, durh..) horn tweeters with a little paper cone on them in the chamber behind the horn, maybe you could just take that assembly out and us it. They were really cheap, don't remember the part # though.
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Old 25th February 2004, 01:42 AM   #19
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Well GM i have my wizzers dammared quite a lot. I ran some FR curves and when i do i hook up the scope to watch the sine wave.I can see a phase shift at a given Hz, the wave trace broadens.
When i was using (about 2 years ago) the B-20 the waveform spread about 3ms and actually showed as a seperate wave with a different amplitude.I dammared them(about 6 layers) and had no luck, so i finally cut the wizzer off and crossed to a tweet.The B-20 phase shift i could hear.
With the dammared wizzers(3 layers) on the 206e i see no such thing or hear it.However i didnt run any curves before i modded the drivers so i actually have no comparasion base.
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Old 25th February 2004, 02:21 AM   #20
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Hmm though, I do have to admit once you get over 10Khz or so being terribly flat shouldn't make much difference as long as there aren't any super high spikes until you get over 20Khz... (regarding extending the trebble with a piezo tweeter on the pole piece...)

So then, a driver that covers from 200 Hz to 10 Khz, low distortion, at least 90 db sens.... But, alas, the smaller the radiator is the better the dispersion is...

I HAVE a design that solves these problems, but I don't have the funds to build it.
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