Hello audio friends. My name is Rafael and this is my first post here on this forum. Firstly maybe I will introduce myself a little bit. I'm living in UK in Leeds for around 6 years. I am a music lover like all of you here but I think I am still only an amateur or a newbie in this industry and hobby...mainly because even when I love listen to music my knowledge in audio is not so good. All i know is thankfully to guys like you because when I am doing a research on audio i can find many interesting things.
So I am here because I need your help...I would like to build my own full range speakers. Why I would like full range speakers ? Mainly because they are easier to build than 2 way or 3 way speakers, and from what I've heard they can sing in some ways with better sound quality and musicality than 2 or 3 way.
At the moment I have Kef LS50 speakers, my amp is Creek Evolution 100a and my dac is Chord Hugo. I like how kef speakers sing but...I would like to have "bigger" sound and if this is possible even better in any way.? Is it possible to surpass Kef LS50 by diy full range ? Can full range diy play even better in mids and highs than LS50 ?
If yes then please tell me or give me any tips which full range speakers to buy etc ? 5inch or 6inch or 8inch ?
I thought about open baffle as well...as I said..last times I am doing a lot of research and I have read a lot of stuff about open baffle as well but from what I know they can sing great but with one full range speaker they have problem with bass so I am here to ask you for any ideas what can be best for me.
My living room is around 4,5 m x 4 m and I dont care about movies, music is the most important hobby (equal with football) in my life, so please help me to build my own best speakers ever.
I prefer to pay a little bit more for full range speakers parts if they will be better. Just looking for best possible option.
In the future I will think and do by diy or buy some subwoofer as well.
Please help me guys,
Best Regards,
Rafael
PS. sorry for my english language
So I am here because I need your help...I would like to build my own full range speakers. Why I would like full range speakers ? Mainly because they are easier to build than 2 way or 3 way speakers, and from what I've heard they can sing in some ways with better sound quality and musicality than 2 or 3 way.
At the moment I have Kef LS50 speakers, my amp is Creek Evolution 100a and my dac is Chord Hugo. I like how kef speakers sing but...I would like to have "bigger" sound and if this is possible even better in any way.? Is it possible to surpass Kef LS50 by diy full range ? Can full range diy play even better in mids and highs than LS50 ?
If yes then please tell me or give me any tips which full range speakers to buy etc ? 5inch or 6inch or 8inch ?
I thought about open baffle as well...as I said..last times I am doing a lot of research and I have read a lot of stuff about open baffle as well but from what I know they can sing great but with one full range speaker they have problem with bass so I am here to ask you for any ideas what can be best for me.
My living room is around 4,5 m x 4 m and I dont care about movies, music is the most important hobby (equal with football) in my life, so please help me to build my own best speakers ever.
I prefer to pay a little bit more for full range speakers parts if they will be better. Just looking for best possible option.
In the future I will think and do by diy or buy some subwoofer as well.
Please help me guys,
Best Regards,
Rafael
PS. sorry for my english language
1st: Leeds, i hope the floods aren't making your life a pain.
You happen to live in a hot-bed of FR/hifi activity. If you want to hook up with the community contact Colin or Scott. Reiver Acoustic
There are usually a couple get togethers every year.
AFAIC the sweet spot for FR drivers is ~4-5".
OBs are something we have tried a number of times, we find that there is something just not quite right, but with any speaker having as many compromises as they do, what we don't like may be fine with you. To get bass they either need to be big or you need to do a FAST with a FR & a BIG woofer. The MJK passive baffle article is a good solid starting point.
A FAST pushes the XO down into a region where many of the evils of having an XO just go away.
I would recommend checking out Frugel-Horn Mk3 or Frugel-Horn XL. The designer is just east of you in Hull. And if you have trouble with building there are a couple flat-pak makers in the UK (Colin used to be one, but he only does complete ones now). http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/277557-frugel-horn-family.html
You will find that a good FR is more seemless than the KEF, althou taken in isolation, the HF is, perhaps not as good as the KEF, but when considered as a whole the FR will have characteristics that a speaker with a complex XO right in the most sensitive hearing range is very unlikely to ever be able to achieve.
dave
You happen to live in a hot-bed of FR/hifi activity. If you want to hook up with the community contact Colin or Scott. Reiver Acoustic
There are usually a couple get togethers every year.
AFAIC the sweet spot for FR drivers is ~4-5".
OBs are something we have tried a number of times, we find that there is something just not quite right, but with any speaker having as many compromises as they do, what we don't like may be fine with you. To get bass they either need to be big or you need to do a FAST with a FR & a BIG woofer. The MJK passive baffle article is a good solid starting point.
A FAST pushes the XO down into a region where many of the evils of having an XO just go away.
I would recommend checking out Frugel-Horn Mk3 or Frugel-Horn XL. The designer is just east of you in Hull. And if you have trouble with building there are a couple flat-pak makers in the UK (Colin used to be one, but he only does complete ones now). http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/277557-frugel-horn-family.html
You will find that a good FR is more seemless than the KEF, althou taken in isolation, the HF is, perhaps not as good as the KEF, but when considered as a whole the FR will have characteristics that a speaker with a complex XO right in the most sensitive hearing range is very unlikely to ever be able to achieve.
dave
Hello Dave and thank you for answer. I'm ok thank you for asking...my gym is closed because of floods so I can't train at the moment but overall all is ok.
Do you think I can get better sound from 2 or 3 way than from full range ? I know that can be a stupid question but there is an option I would try 2 or 3 way if that would sond better. ?
I would like to build speakers which will be better than my Kef in every aspects. Is that possible ? If yes then better of doing it in full range or in 2 or 3 way ?
Also I found that Coral Beta 10 full range is so great full range speaker. What do you think about these ? Is today any better full range than old good Coral Beta 10 ?
Best Regards,
Rafael
Full range driver speaker building is a journey and a process. It will highly be unlikely that you will be building just one. Maybe start with something easy and fun the move to something more "monitor" like. Easy cheap and fun can start with a TC9FD in a 0.4x scale Karlsonator. There are many satisfied builders of this speaker. Rich full sound, great musicality.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/239338-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds.html
If ready to move onto 2 way FAST, this speaker sounds fantastic. You can start with a TG9FD rather than a 10Fto save some money. Woofer alternatives are also available if RS225 is not readily available where you are. Any 8in high excursion Qts of 0.35 to 0.45 should work.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273524-10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor.html
Go active though - it allows xo tuning on the fly and allows you to implement quasi transient perfect Harsch XO.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/239338-mini-karlsonator-0-53x-dual-tc9fds.html
If ready to move onto 2 way FAST, this speaker sounds fantastic. You can start with a TG9FD rather than a 10Fto save some money. Woofer alternatives are also available if RS225 is not readily available where you are. Any 8in high excursion Qts of 0.35 to 0.45 should work.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273524-10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor.html
Go active though - it allows xo tuning on the fly and allows you to implement quasi transient perfect Harsch XO.
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I think you can.
But keep in mind that even the best speakers have a large number of compromises. If the compromises involved with a FR are a better match to the set of compromises that suit you then, yes, you can do a speaker that you find gives you more pleasure & enjoyment.
Given the above thing about compromises there are many ways to do it. I haven't heard the KEF so i can't comment. I have seen reviews where they are loved, and others where they are much less so. I talked with a guy who liked his LS50 but much prefered a set of 4.5" Omega FR he got.
I've only heard Beta 8. They were good, but i think the best of modern FRs have finally passed the best of the 50s/60s (when earlier FR development peaked).
A note on the scan 10F XRK mentioned. It is good, but way overpriced. FF85wk, Alpair 6.x, 5.2 would be a better choice. And likely others… (no one person can possibly evaluate the myriad of FRs hitting the market, but we do try lots). The FF85wKeN is one of our favorites for midTweeter in a FAST.
As X says it is much easier to play with FASTs, and you have way more versatility and choice if you go active (4 amp channels).
dave
Hello bolly unfortunately I don't have coral beta 10.
Best Regards and Happy New Year for every audio lover.
Hell and thank you for replying here. I think I would like to build something which will be good enough for me and will stop there. I believe once I will do good sounding speakers it will be enough for me with building or buying speakers for some time. It will be hard to find a sweet spot but who said life is easy...so maybe even some 3 way speakers project which you know they are very good sounding ?
Best Regards and Happy New Year !
Hello Dave and Happy New Year. I think I will try to build 2 way or 3 way. You've helped me a lot at the moment and big thanks to you for that. If you would have choose between 2 way and 3 way which one would you choose ?
Is there anything better to build for the similar price in two way speaker than the one 2 way speaker with scan 10F xrk mentioned ? Sorry for so many questions. Everything is getting much more clear for me so it is easier to decide what to buy how to build etc.
Best Regards and Happy New Year Dave !
Rafael
Xrk and Dave I am really sorry for so many posts here...all that is because I didn't done enough research but believe me last weeks only things I am doing is reading reading and reading all about audio etc. And I am sure I would like to build 2 way speakers. Drivers the ones which xrk suggested and the drivers which you suggested Dave as well are great and I think I will try to concentrate on them and choose only the one best one. So I have question: is scan 10F/8424 best in sound quality from all of them ? I am very interested in 2 way speaker project which xrk mentioned...and I think I will try to build them. Xrk can you suggest any different woofers if I will not find the ones you have suggested ? Is there anything which will be same good at least ?
Wow that's very impressive bolly, they look very nice and I am really like it. I've never heard beta 8 or beta 10 so it is hard for me to say anything.
It must be sounding so nice for you...I'm jealous
Hi looks like webshop in Netherlands have RS225-8 in stock https://www.soundimports.nl.
Have 10F/8424 myself and can recommend as full ranger if paired a woofer.
Regarding woofer if cost doesn't matter and you wan't some of the best performers for distortion manner there is Scan Speak 18W/8531G00 and SB Acoustics SATORI MW16P and MW19P, here a link to a 2-way build with 18W/8531G00 where you can see some real world data for that woofer Zaph|Audio - ZRT - Revelator Tower.
EDIT: In same price range as RS225-8 there is also Scan Speak 22W/8534G00 which have same cone material and look as 10F/8424 but its specs normal call for double as much volume for enclosure as RS225-8 does. Some real world data for that woofer in a 3-way system can be find here http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/ScanSpeak-3W-Discovery.htm.
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2 way modular
Hi Rafael,
I always favor less is more....So a two way design would be my choice.
But, if you do ever need to add subs for home cinema or big room & high SPL's, then its a good idea to design your speakers with a modular approach.
Using a DSP or AV amplifier for active crossover & Eq greatly simplifies things and gives you great flexibility.
With a £2,000 to £3,000 budget for a pair of stereo loudspeakers you can build a really sweet system.
To give you an idea of how good, book a demo with a good HiFi dealer and ask to hear a nice pair of £5,000 to £6,000 pair of loudspeakers driven by a good amp and source, say another £5,000 or so.
That type of sound quality is easily matched or bettered with a few grand of smart DIY £££
I would also suggest posting around the DIY guys in your area and ask if you can hear a few different loudspeaker designs and systems....Try before you buy and meet some new friends at the same time!
I live a couple of hours south of Leeds (near St Neots) so if you don't mind driving you are welcome to hear some of my 2 way BMR systems with and without subs. See attached examples.
To keep it real I can use an AV amp for the DSP / crossovers or if you want to hear something special I can use some high end DSP / DAC's etc.....The bottom line is the speakers are the single most important part of any audio system and if you get them right the rest is easy.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
Hi Rafael,
I always favor less is more....So a two way design would be my choice.
But, if you do ever need to add subs for home cinema or big room & high SPL's, then its a good idea to design your speakers with a modular approach.
Using a DSP or AV amplifier for active crossover & Eq greatly simplifies things and gives you great flexibility.
With a £2,000 to £3,000 budget for a pair of stereo loudspeakers you can build a really sweet system.
To give you an idea of how good, book a demo with a good HiFi dealer and ask to hear a nice pair of £5,000 to £6,000 pair of loudspeakers driven by a good amp and source, say another £5,000 or so.
That type of sound quality is easily matched or bettered with a few grand of smart DIY £££
I would also suggest posting around the DIY guys in your area and ask if you can hear a few different loudspeaker designs and systems....Try before you buy and meet some new friends at the same time!
I live a couple of hours south of Leeds (near St Neots) so if you don't mind driving you are welcome to hear some of my 2 way BMR systems with and without subs. See attached examples.
To keep it real I can use an AV amp for the DSP / crossovers or if you want to hear something special I can use some high end DSP / DAC's etc.....The bottom line is the speakers are the single most important part of any audio system and if you get them right the rest is easy.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
Hello Derek, that's a lot of information and thank you for that. Also thank you for such a great opportunity to come to your place to hear all these outstanding speakers. I would like to come that would be fantastic but unfortunately I don't have a car but if I only could find any cheap train or bus I would like to come definitely. All three models look great. If you could choose the best one from these three models which you sent me in pdf which on would you choose for overall sound and music quality ? I am curious how the last pair with 4 bmr would compare to normal 2 way system like on your pdf also with 10" woofer or 15" woofer. ?
Also how these BMR drivers comparing to scan 10F/8424 ? Which one is better if that is a good question ?
I would like to meet and know some diy audio guys here in Leeds or around Leeds but I don't know anyone. Do you know anyone around Leeds ? And that's true it is always very nice to meet new peoples or have new friends especially when audio lover meet another audio lover.
Thank you very much Derek for your input,
All the best and Happy New Year !
Rafael
Thank you BYRTT for another portion of informations to consider. For best sound quality and best bass texture speed and lowest distortion which woofer would you choose in the end ?
Happy New Year BYRTT
If cost were no object you can't go wrong with the Revelator woofer. I also have heard that the Satori is excellent. Both are actually top of the line.
If you have access to Dayton the the RS225-8 is excellent despite its low price. It has unique TS parameters not found elsewhere. Perhaps consider a 10in woofer? Dc250-8 looks very promising. Smooth - less xmax but more Sd.
If you have access to Dayton the the RS225-8 is excellent despite its low price. It has unique TS parameters not found elsewhere. Perhaps consider a 10in woofer? Dc250-8 looks very promising. Smooth - less xmax but more Sd.
Happy new year too.
Lets put distortion aside a moment and talk best bass texture speed and integration between a woofer and full ranger as example 10F/8424 my experience is both a right cheaper woofer or a expensive one can sound great if DSP and multi amp steered so as you can trim acoustic amplitude slopes with IRR filters and drivers offset to precision with digital delay and if DSP can do FIR filters too you can reach very high performance. So if you happen steer a precision signal to RS225-8 or 22W/8534G00 think you will get high quality audio stream with their class of low distortion level, if you then want best class of low level distortion pick either 18W/8531G00 MW16P or MW19P.
With above want to express if a expensive woofer is not feeded precision signal in a final build i can make same build with a cheaper woofer and precision signal that then will outperform the expensive one and hope others agree that advise, so think its important as xrk971 Planet10 and Overkill Audio points out get some DSP and multi amps and then pick woofer.
Before thinking more of above think will be very good idea get a ticket and visit Overkill Audio.
Other thoughts is haven't listen a Kef LS50 but suppose it to perform very well so if you add it a woofer and good DSP steering would expect could be very good system.
Rafael,
2-way. We have built more than a few. All with XO between 150-400 Hz. Down there most of the evils of an XO can be greatly diminished.
Certainly. Given that the 10F is far too expensive for what you get (a very soft top -- missing in action i'd say -- and no bass (fine in a FAST)), there are lots of things that are better. In direct comparison it got killed by the FF85wKeN which is some $20/pr cheaper. It is really a midrange.
Chris had to give up the FF85wKeN in his office system and is currently using the 10F, i get lots of complaints. I think i will need to put aside a set of stock FF85wk and see how they fare against the 10F.
FF85wk (treated or not) + 2 Silver Flute W14 would be a good one (we are working on another of those with the W14 in an ML-TL to get more bass.
dave
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