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Old 20th December 2015, 12:41 AM   #1
osd1 is offline osd1  Canada
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Default Fast system help...driver choice

Hey now.

So I wanna do a fast system. I have a ice power/minidsp plate amp that is either going to power dual Dayton classic subs or human pro 005 drivers (which are sick, they naturally roll off so the kit is just a cap on the tweeter....think that's impossible the woofer rolls off at 1800Hz? Your loss not mine they are in .5 ft3 boxes and hit 40hz). I will be building a small sealed box for a full range driver (think .5-.75ft3). I'd like subs on the floor and full range on stands. Any suggestions? So far mark audio, ead and fostex are my choices.

I'm thinking the humans 8" drivers might be better off only bc they are good up to 1800hz where the Dayton 10" is good to only 200hz.
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Old 20th December 2015, 01:06 AM   #2
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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There are a lot of choices. You don't need so much volume for the top full range in a FAST. Rather than make a rectangular box, try a Dagger or a spiral sealed TL for no back reflections and zero coloration. It's important to have a proper baffle to reduce diffraction - trapezoidal is best. Round is worst - you probably know that. Great that the Human driver can go so high - but FAST means you want a low XO. Somewhere in 300Hz to 500Hz works.

Take a look at drivers tested here for FAST. If you have the money to spend on a Fostex, Blind Subjective Tests. If you are looking at price range circa Fostex, EAD, MA. Look at the Visaton B80 or ScanSpeak 10F.

A Subjective Blind Comparison of 3in to 5in Full Range Drivers

A Subjective Blind Comparison of 3in to 5in drivers - Round 2

A Subjective Blind Comparison of 2in to 4in drivers - Round 3

A Subjective Blind Comparison of 2in to 4in drivers - Round 4

A Subjective Blind Comparison of 2in to 3.5in drivers - Round 5

About 1.5 liters should do it. Xo at 400Hz. Use the minidsp and implement a Harsch xO for transient perfect.
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Old 20th December 2015, 01:23 AM   #3
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
Harsch xO for transient perfect.
I have never built a 2-way - still in the reading stage and waiting for the New Year, but even with some reading I never heard of the Harsch XO. Why don't I see it used in designs I have read about, why doesn't Linwitz use it ? does transient perfect mean some other parameter is less perfect ?
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Old 20th December 2015, 01:33 AM   #4
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Quote:
for no back reflections and zero coloration
The dagger is a good shape, but never say never.

We've built a number of FASTs using FF85, Alpair 7.3/7p. On the list to try are A5/A6, and A10PeN in another stab at an OB. Just designed an A12p (or A10x) with A12pw. And trialed lots of others.

The Human sounds like the better woofer to use. Getting a good meld requires the woofers to have extended response. Some of the helper woofers we have used go up to 5-10kHz.

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Old 20th December 2015, 01:51 AM   #5
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigun View Post
I have never built a 2-way - still in the reading stage and waiting for the New Year, but even with some reading I never heard of the Harsch XO. Why don't I see it used in designs I have read about, why doesn't Linwitz use it ? does transient perfect mean some other parameter is less perfect ?
Harsch xO is fairly new. Linkwitz doesn't use it, well, because he uses Linkwitz-Riley XO's!

I am trying to get the word out - if you are using active DSP for your 2 way, no reason not to try. It sounds very good to my ears. The LR xo will be theoretically flat in response through the xo. However it will have a larger phase turn, especially LR4.

Look at the recent simulations Byrtt did to show what the impulse and phase from a LR looks like vs a Harsch XO (on Harsch XO thread). These are actual electrical signal experiments with loop back on sound card. Skipping the imperfect speaker so you can see theoretically the best it can do.

S. Harsch XO

LR cannot replicate a square wave properly. A LR2 XO also has the initial tweeter pressure spike negative (rarefaction) with the bass pulse positive. LR4 has both positive but timing is all off.

Disadvantages? A little more tricky to set up. Requires DSP to effect the proper time alignment delay or a physical offset of tweeter relative to woofer. It requires second order slope on tweeter - some tweeters need 4th order. For FAST, the "tweeter" is a full range with wide bandwidth and ability to use 2nd order high pass filter just fine. No real disadvantages that I can see.

Last edited by xrk971; 20th December 2015 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 20th December 2015, 01:54 AM   #6
Bigun is offline Bigun  Canada
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This looks interesting ! If I remember correctly, avoidance of phase wrap and ability to produce a square wave is also a signature of the Synergy Horn ?

How does a whizzer cone perform in this regard - my current speaker uses a whizzer cone, will it produce phase wrap ?
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Old 20th December 2015, 02:01 AM   #7
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Only in a Synergy with properly designed XO. If you use all LR XO's in a synergy, well you get the phase wraps.

The Danley SH50 and Bwaslo's Cosyne horns are unique superlative examples. Not many like that.

If your whizzer is active above the telephone band >6kHz then you should be OK as that is where flat phase is important for imaging. Whizzers probably don't have good phase coherence as they are kind of multi mode devices.
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Old 20th December 2015, 02:21 AM   #8
osd1 is offline osd1  Canada
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I was under the impression I'd want a 250 range. Reason being it would seem that a driver like the visaton b80 or a mark audio 6" would have no issue handling that. Then mid bass through vocals would be from same driver.
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Old 20th December 2015, 02:37 AM   #9
osd1 is offline osd1  Canada
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Oh I also have some bg neo 3 s too. I could use that as a super tweeter maybe? If I did I'd do it passively.the DSp is reserved for the bass amp as it is built in. But then I'd just have a 3 way which defeats the purpose...right?
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