Hi there.
I've recently discovered this forum and been fascinated. I was thinking of changing my speakers but the prospect of building some sounds fun.
I've spent the last few days trying to soak up information, but a lot is well over my head. OB FAST seems interesting particularly as it's likely easier to build.
Can anyone help point me in the right direction?
What am I looking for?
1- something easy to start with, with instructions on what to do & suitable for someone with no experience.
2- a project I can complete for maybe around £200
3- something I can plug straight into my existing system if possible/advisable. (iMac, Arcam rdac, audio lab 8000a {recently serviced} ) to replace my TDL RTL2
4- something that's an improvement over my current speakers. I would like a more immersive experience. Better female vocals. More tuneful bass. Not bright sounding.
5- capable of playing the following range of music: Norah Jones, Dashboard Confessional, Pink Floyd, 30 Seconds to Mars, Marilyn Manson. Plus films & TV
6- parts that I can source in the UK.
7 suitable for a 4x5 meter room with 3m high ceilings.
Is this possible?
Cheers
I've recently discovered this forum and been fascinated. I was thinking of changing my speakers but the prospect of building some sounds fun.
I've spent the last few days trying to soak up information, but a lot is well over my head. OB FAST seems interesting particularly as it's likely easier to build.
Can anyone help point me in the right direction?
What am I looking for?
1- something easy to start with, with instructions on what to do & suitable for someone with no experience.
2- a project I can complete for maybe around £200
3- something I can plug straight into my existing system if possible/advisable. (iMac, Arcam rdac, audio lab 8000a {recently serviced} ) to replace my TDL RTL2
4- something that's an improvement over my current speakers. I would like a more immersive experience. Better female vocals. More tuneful bass. Not bright sounding.
5- capable of playing the following range of music: Norah Jones, Dashboard Confessional, Pink Floyd, 30 Seconds to Mars, Marilyn Manson. Plus films & TV
6- parts that I can source in the UK.
7 suitable for a 4x5 meter room with 3m high ceilings.
Is this possible?
Cheers
I'd suspect that the TDL speakers would be a little over-damped with that amplifier. Older style TL speakers and SS can sometimes be a bit bright and dead sounding. Most likely they'd sound a whole lot more enjoyable with a loosey-goosey SET tube/valve amp.
OB FAST might be easier WRT the woodworking, but the electronic implementation of them is not trivial. You could sidestep this by building a known design. Also, they need to be big to work properly and have reasonable bass extension. One very nice thing about OB is that they have less room interaction because of the figure 8 pattern, which can be helpful in less than ideal acoustical environments.
Karlsonator? Yeah I hear those things are alright, but I'm quite biased.
OB FAST might be easier WRT the woodworking, but the electronic implementation of them is not trivial. You could sidestep this by building a known design. Also, they need to be big to work properly and have reasonable bass extension. One very nice thing about OB is that they have less room interaction because of the figure 8 pattern, which can be helpful in less than ideal acoustical environments.
Karlsonator? Yeah I hear those things are alright, but I'm quite biased.
Hi Greg,
The TDL brightness you refer to has not been an issue when partnered with certain equipment. My brothers CD player was painfully bright but mine was good. However, after I had my amp serviced, I found my CD player too bright but much better with imac source when run through my dac. This issue I have with painful brightness of equipment is obviously a concern. The problem I have with them really, as confirmed by my little listening test below, is really the muddled midrange.
I have been reading OB FAST stuff which intrigued me with the prospect of a different sound without the box. Yes, you are right, the electronics went over my head. But I am keen to learn and am not in any rush. And if there are known designs, I would be happy if you could point me in their direction and discover how little I know!
Hi xrk
I’ve started reading the thread: Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FD's
The Classic Rock track in the first post, I downloaded and played as recommended through headphones.
I’m not sure I understand how to compare the lossy mp3 of this recording with my lossless file of that song played through my speakers or my headphones (Sennheiser HD497). So for what its worth….
I didn’t have my headphone adapter in hand to plug it into the amp so had to stick it into the mac.
The mp3 was boxy & compressed in the midrange, dry, and muffled drums and cymbals with no leading edge attack. (But then mp3’s do ruin music - particularly drums. I could pm you my email address if you have any lossless or 320kbps recordings.)
My lossless original file via headphones was much fuller and cleaner but I immediately found it painful to listen to.
The lossless file via my TDL RTL2 speakers had a deep base presence but muddier midrange.
I’ve just played a good drum track Foo fighters: In your honour. Starting at 1 min 30. The lossless file when played through my RTL2’s is deep and powerful yet the leading edge of the drums is muddied/coloured when compared to using headphones.
This is quite interesting. I’ve run a few more tests and it would seem to indicate I like a large sound but need a clearer midrange and smooth treble.
Some months back I did an online hearing test and I could start to hear the tone at 17-17.5KHz. It was the discomfort at this threshold that I was experiencing earlier from my lossless original file played through the macs headphone port.
I don’t know if its possible, but I like the idea of prototyping something in this foam core and then once satisfied with the sound, dismantling and, going with a sturdier unit with more WAF (I believe thats the term).
Thanks again for the input chaps.
The TDL brightness you refer to has not been an issue when partnered with certain equipment. My brothers CD player was painfully bright but mine was good. However, after I had my amp serviced, I found my CD player too bright but much better with imac source when run through my dac. This issue I have with painful brightness of equipment is obviously a concern. The problem I have with them really, as confirmed by my little listening test below, is really the muddled midrange.
I have been reading OB FAST stuff which intrigued me with the prospect of a different sound without the box. Yes, you are right, the electronics went over my head. But I am keen to learn and am not in any rush. And if there are known designs, I would be happy if you could point me in their direction and discover how little I know!
Hi xrk
I’ve started reading the thread: Mini Karlsonator (0.53X) with Dual TC9FD's
The Classic Rock track in the first post, I downloaded and played as recommended through headphones.
I’m not sure I understand how to compare the lossy mp3 of this recording with my lossless file of that song played through my speakers or my headphones (Sennheiser HD497). So for what its worth….
I didn’t have my headphone adapter in hand to plug it into the amp so had to stick it into the mac.
The mp3 was boxy & compressed in the midrange, dry, and muffled drums and cymbals with no leading edge attack. (But then mp3’s do ruin music - particularly drums. I could pm you my email address if you have any lossless or 320kbps recordings.)
My lossless original file via headphones was much fuller and cleaner but I immediately found it painful to listen to.
The lossless file via my TDL RTL2 speakers had a deep base presence but muddier midrange.
I’ve just played a good drum track Foo fighters: In your honour. Starting at 1 min 30. The lossless file when played through my RTL2’s is deep and powerful yet the leading edge of the drums is muddied/coloured when compared to using headphones.
This is quite interesting. I’ve run a few more tests and it would seem to indicate I like a large sound but need a clearer midrange and smooth treble.
Eddie Reader: Kiteflyers Hill
headphones - too light & ephemeral
speakers - nice presence but too coloured
Jay-Z & Linkin Park: Numb/Encore
headphones - clean but devoid of the bass slam
speakers - good bass
Katie Melua: If you were a sailboat
headphones - cleaner vocals
speakers -nice big sound but muffled, coloured midrange.
Lou Reed: Coney Island Baby
headphones: cold and clear
speakers: more depth & character to his voice & emotion to the song.
Queensryche: Suite Sister Mary (3:10 - 4:00)
speakers: are there really 2 people singing there?
headphones: yes. and its a girl thats joined him.
Over the years the speakers bass has been tightened again and again with the change in amp, addition of dac, and even mounting the speakers on granite blocks.headphones - too light & ephemeral
speakers - nice presence but too coloured
Jay-Z & Linkin Park: Numb/Encore
headphones - clean but devoid of the bass slam
speakers - good bass
Katie Melua: If you were a sailboat
headphones - cleaner vocals
speakers -nice big sound but muffled, coloured midrange.
Lou Reed: Coney Island Baby
headphones: cold and clear
speakers: more depth & character to his voice & emotion to the song.
Queensryche: Suite Sister Mary (3:10 - 4:00)
speakers: are there really 2 people singing there?
headphones: yes. and its a girl thats joined him.
Some months back I did an online hearing test and I could start to hear the tone at 17-17.5KHz. It was the discomfort at this threshold that I was experiencing earlier from my lossless original file played through the macs headphone port.
I don’t know if its possible, but I like the idea of prototyping something in this foam core and then once satisfied with the sound, dismantling and, going with a sturdier unit with more WAF (I believe thats the term).
Thanks again for the input chaps.
If you need clear midrange and smoother treble, sounds like your tastes are more towards a monitor type speaker. I have several designs that would fit the bill but they are all 2-way FAST (fullrange assisted subwoofer technology), that is, a fullrange with a woofer xo'd low around 300Hz to 500Hz.
A fantastic sounding speaker is my 10F/RS225 FAST monitor:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273524-10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor.html
It is currently spec'd to use a pricey SS 10F/8424 but I have swapped that out for a $10 TC9FD or a $22 TG9FD and it sounds almost as good. One of the best sounding speakers I have made and my "daily" listener. In fact, I am listening to it as I type and it currently has a $6 Peerless TPY03 (basically a black Kevlar or fiberglass cone TG9FD) that a member in India gave me. It sounds fantastic.
So to keep prices low, you can go this route:
qnty 2 x TG9FD10-8 = $44
qnty 2 x RS225-8 = $124
You will need a miniDSP and 2-way plugin + shipping = $110
qnty 2 x TPA3116D2 amps = $25
If you have a pair of amps already, that saves some money. You can swap out the TG9FD's for TC9FD's and save $24 and upgrade later. If you have a multichannel sound card and computer, you can do the DSP via the computer and software like Jriver and save $110 there.
Here are the speakers:
Performance with Harsch quasi transient perfect XO here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273524-10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor-65.html
IR:
HD:
And finally, if you really want a pretty nice sounding speaker and just need to make a box and take all the design and guesswork out, get these:
http://gr-research.com/x-lsclassickit.aspx
Superb deal - excellent quality and sounds very nice. I bought it myself and can recommend it. Best value in DIY today for $110 - nothing can touch it value wise. They are not as good sounding as my FAST above, but quite a bit above the average $300 to $500 speakers from a store.
A fantastic sounding speaker is my 10F/RS225 FAST monitor:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273524-10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor.html
It is currently spec'd to use a pricey SS 10F/8424 but I have swapped that out for a $10 TC9FD or a $22 TG9FD and it sounds almost as good. One of the best sounding speakers I have made and my "daily" listener. In fact, I am listening to it as I type and it currently has a $6 Peerless TPY03 (basically a black Kevlar or fiberglass cone TG9FD) that a member in India gave me. It sounds fantastic.
So to keep prices low, you can go this route:
qnty 2 x TG9FD10-8 = $44
qnty 2 x RS225-8 = $124
You will need a miniDSP and 2-way plugin + shipping = $110
qnty 2 x TPA3116D2 amps = $25
If you have a pair of amps already, that saves some money. You can swap out the TG9FD's for TC9FD's and save $24 and upgrade later. If you have a multichannel sound card and computer, you can do the DSP via the computer and software like Jriver and save $110 there.
Here are the speakers:
Performance with Harsch quasi transient perfect XO here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/273524-10f-8424-rs225-8-fast-ref-monitor-65.html
IR:
HD:
And finally, if you really want a pretty nice sounding speaker and just need to make a box and take all the design and guesswork out, get these:
http://gr-research.com/x-lsclassickit.aspx
Superb deal - excellent quality and sounds very nice. I bought it myself and can recommend it. Best value in DIY today for $110 - nothing can touch it value wise. They are not as good sounding as my FAST above, but quite a bit above the average $300 to $500 speakers from a store.
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The closest I have come to an H frame is an OB with some 2in strips on the back for stiffening brace (so a shallow U frame):
I have built an OB push-pull Z-frame:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...zba-dipole-k-aperture-z-baffle-dipole-23.html
10F/RS225 FAST monitor
Well I heard the .asc files and they brought a smile to my face. Much nicer!
I read you mention wood would likely work better than what you were using. I should be able to get wood quite easy.
The charts... well thats a good point. I do not know how to read them and how they translate into what I hear, i.e. fast smooth transients, clear midrange and deep, fast bass, open soundstage, etc. Is there a thread or article where I can learn?
When I was auditioning speakers many years ago, none of the bookshelf sized speakers could do big bass like my TDL RTL2's which is why I ended up going with them. Can these speakers do big bass or am I better off looking for floor standers?
I guess the bottom line is I want a real upgrade to my existing system - to keep the rocking bass but open up the midrange. So if I have to pay more then so be it.
Thank you so much for your input. Its really been an ear opener!
Well I heard the .asc files and they brought a smile to my face. Much nicer!
I read you mention wood would likely work better than what you were using. I should be able to get wood quite easy.
The charts... well thats a good point. I do not know how to read them and how they translate into what I hear, i.e. fast smooth transients, clear midrange and deep, fast bass, open soundstage, etc. Is there a thread or article where I can learn?
When I was auditioning speakers many years ago, none of the bookshelf sized speakers could do big bass like my TDL RTL2's which is why I ended up going with them. Can these speakers do big bass or am I better off looking for floor standers?
I guess the bottom line is I want a real upgrade to my existing system - to keep the rocking bass but open up the midrange. So if I have to pay more then so be it.
Thank you so much for your input. Its really been an ear opener!
The 10F/RS225 is a moderate SPL level monitor and will not really be able to go louder than 96dB without hitting distortion in bass. For what it is, it does have pretty good bass extension down to 42Hz. It's magic lies in its ability to reproduce lifelike transients, great imaging and sound stage, beautiful mid range, low distortion on mids and highs.
You will have to just read up by doing searches for frequency response, impulse response, harmonic distortion.
Basically you want frequency response to be wide and smooth and cover from at least 50Hz to 16kHz and as flat as possible (within 5dB vertical band). If you can get down to 30Hz even better.
For impulse response you want a sharp peak followed by as little hash or signature I anything. Ideally a single pulse is what you want.
Harmonic distortion you want all the harmonics to be as low as possible (and devoid of peaks in the 500Hz to 5kHz range where it is really audible) and especially 3rd and odd order harmonics are more offensive. Look for sub 1% HD over 100Hz and below 5% below 100Hz at your listening levels. Some subs will give you sub percent HD at 100dB below 100Hz but they are rare. In the 500Hz to 5kHz range look for sub 0.2% HD as that will give beautiful vocals.
For step response look for a right triangle with apex at top. That will give you a transient perfect time aligned sound that is realistic. Good for drums, pianos, marimba, xylophone etc
For group delay look for sub 10ms at 50Hz and preferably below 5ms at 50Hz. Why 50Hz because that is where kick drum is centered and to keep drum time alignment that had to be low. Many bass reflex speakers have a value in the 15 ms to 20ms range there. Above 100Hz group delay should be below 2ms.
You will have to just read up by doing searches for frequency response, impulse response, harmonic distortion.
Basically you want frequency response to be wide and smooth and cover from at least 50Hz to 16kHz and as flat as possible (within 5dB vertical band). If you can get down to 30Hz even better.
For impulse response you want a sharp peak followed by as little hash or signature I anything. Ideally a single pulse is what you want.
Harmonic distortion you want all the harmonics to be as low as possible (and devoid of peaks in the 500Hz to 5kHz range where it is really audible) and especially 3rd and odd order harmonics are more offensive. Look for sub 1% HD over 100Hz and below 5% below 100Hz at your listening levels. Some subs will give you sub percent HD at 100dB below 100Hz but they are rare. In the 500Hz to 5kHz range look for sub 0.2% HD as that will give beautiful vocals.
For step response look for a right triangle with apex at top. That will give you a transient perfect time aligned sound that is realistic. Good for drums, pianos, marimba, xylophone etc
For group delay look for sub 10ms at 50Hz and preferably below 5ms at 50Hz. Why 50Hz because that is where kick drum is centered and to keep drum time alignment that had to be low. Many bass reflex speakers have a value in the 15 ms to 20ms range there. Above 100Hz group delay should be below 2ms.
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Thanks xrk.
I've been trying to figure out how many dB I would actually go to. There doesn't seem to be a good way to determine this without actual equipment.
As a ballpark, if I plug my aforementioned headphones into my iPod then I'll listen at 50% (comfortably) -70% (for brief blasts) of max.
On the iPhone when I'm at the gym, its at the yellow bar/first entry at high volume/approx. 70% max volume.
If thats anything to go by (and I'm prepared for you to tell me otherwise...) then 96db should be plenty.
I've been trying to figure out how many dB I would actually go to. There doesn't seem to be a good way to determine this without actual equipment.
As a ballpark, if I plug my aforementioned headphones into my iPod then I'll listen at 50% (comfortably) -70% (for brief blasts) of max.
On the iPhone when I'm at the gym, its at the yellow bar/first entry at high volume/approx. 70% max volume.
If thats anything to go by (and I'm prepared for you to tell me otherwise...) then 96db should be plenty.
If you are looking for a simple build, without worrying about crossovers between woofers and tweeters (and possibly a FAST) sub), then I will plug the one that has been a joy to build, fast and always brings a smile to my face when I listen to them.
The TABAQ. Single fullrange speaker. Can't get easier than that. The build is easy to follow and pretty much foolproof.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/88787-tabaq-tl-tang-band.html
There's the small version made for 3" or 4" drivers, and a larger version for 6" drivers.
Here's the best sounding version I found on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvZQqQnWr4k
The TABAQ. Single fullrange speaker. Can't get easier than that. The build is easy to follow and pretty much foolproof.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/88787-tabaq-tl-tang-band.html
There's the small version made for 3" or 4" drivers, and a larger version for 6" drivers.
Here's the best sounding version I found on Youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvZQqQnWr4k
search for "spl chart"
such as this http://www.navcanada.ca/EN/products-and-services/PublishingImages/WTM/Noise_HR_EN.jpg
OK, sounds like you are looking for refinement and true high fidelity.
For your requirements as described, I'd be inclined to go a FAST using a simple ML-TL type bass module, and top it with a good full range in a mini TL or boffle.
I tend to prefer very wide baffles for the most natural presentation, but this isn't an absolute requirement.
If you're still keen to goof around with OB, I'd highly suggest reading through Martin King's site. There is at least one project there. Another obvious source of info is at the Linkwitz Lab site.
OB are not the most space efficient contraptions in the universe. They tend to be large. It is however possible to make them smaller if you are willing to go active, use EQ, and sacrifice efficiency.
For your requirements as described, I'd be inclined to go a FAST using a simple ML-TL type bass module, and top it with a good full range in a mini TL or boffle.
I tend to prefer very wide baffles for the most natural presentation, but this isn't an absolute requirement.
If you're still keen to goof around with OB, I'd highly suggest reading through Martin King's site. There is at least one project there. Another obvious source of info is at the Linkwitz Lab site.
OB are not the most space efficient contraptions in the universe. They tend to be large. It is however possible to make them smaller if you are willing to go active, use EQ, and sacrifice efficiency.
To pipe in yet again on the subject, even the most modestly sized effective OB just not suit everyone's domestic constraints, while a small footprint MLTL such as the TABAQ, or Pensil for a 3-5" Full range driver can have much more acceptance.
Yes, that will often require bass support for full bandwidth - which can be a different target for modest music or a balls to the walls HT system - but multiple small sub enclosures can often be tucked conveniently out of sight, while a 16"W x 40"H multiway may not be so easy to accommodate.
Yes, that will often require bass support for full bandwidth - which can be a different target for modest music or a balls to the walls HT system - but multiple small sub enclosures can often be tucked conveniently out of sight, while a 16"W x 40"H multiway may not be so easy to accommodate.
Hi,
Sorry for the delay chaps, been overly busy with work. Plus every second word you all write I’m googling to educate myself rather than ask unnecessary questions!
Greg - that sounds very interesting. Are there any specific & complete designs you could recommend?
With regards to OB & space… I can do tall but not too wide (>24”). However, they have to be not so tall & slim as to risk being knocked over when people walk into them when failing to negotiate a corner after a few whiskies!
xrk
I found a very interesting thread where you did a blind listening test of speakers.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/270614-subjective-blind-comparison-3in-5in-full-range-drivers.html
A=PRV 5MR450NDY (5in 'midrange' pro audio paper cone 8 ohm) = too bright & sibilant
B=Vifa TC9FD (3.5in paper cone 8 ohm) - Nice Norah. more depth - First place
C=Dayton Audio PS95-8 (3in paper cone 8 ohm) - Nice Norah. touch muffled compared to B - Second place
D=Faital Pro 3FE22 (3in paper cone 16 ohm) - hissy, sibilant
E=Dayton Audio RS100P-4 (3.5inpaper cone 4 ohm) - muffled - bad.
F=MA CHN-70 (4in paper cone 8 ohm) - compressed
G=Dayton Audio RS100-4 (3.5in aluminum cone 4 ohm) - music hidden behind thick blanket.
Would my personal tastes from above have any impact upon your speaker recommendations?
Do you have any more such tests?
With all the variables of electrical and physical build tweaks and listening apparatus at my end, etc, how representative do you think my impressions of the drivers could be? i.e. should I base my choice of driver and ultimate build on these tests?
Chris - Hi
In terms of boxes my preference is to keep it simple with just 2. I do not wish to have lots of boxes or cables. I cannot have something tall and thin that can be easily knocked over. Up to approx. 1.5m tall and 0.5m wide (59’’x20”). In building my own I am intrigued by the possibility of adding some artwork to the real estate the box offers to make it a feature within the room.
Sorry for the delay chaps, been overly busy with work. Plus every second word you all write I’m googling to educate myself rather than ask unnecessary questions!
Greg - that sounds very interesting. Are there any specific & complete designs you could recommend?
With regards to OB & space… I can do tall but not too wide (>24”). However, they have to be not so tall & slim as to risk being knocked over when people walk into them when failing to negotiate a corner after a few whiskies!
xrk
I found a very interesting thread where you did a blind listening test of speakers.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/270614-subjective-blind-comparison-3in-5in-full-range-drivers.html
A=PRV 5MR450NDY (5in 'midrange' pro audio paper cone 8 ohm) = too bright & sibilant
B=Vifa TC9FD (3.5in paper cone 8 ohm) - Nice Norah. more depth - First place
C=Dayton Audio PS95-8 (3in paper cone 8 ohm) - Nice Norah. touch muffled compared to B - Second place
D=Faital Pro 3FE22 (3in paper cone 16 ohm) - hissy, sibilant
E=Dayton Audio RS100P-4 (3.5inpaper cone 4 ohm) - muffled - bad.
F=MA CHN-70 (4in paper cone 8 ohm) - compressed
G=Dayton Audio RS100-4 (3.5in aluminum cone 4 ohm) - music hidden behind thick blanket.
Would my personal tastes from above have any impact upon your speaker recommendations?
Do you have any more such tests?
With all the variables of electrical and physical build tweaks and listening apparatus at my end, etc, how representative do you think my impressions of the drivers could be? i.e. should I base my choice of driver and ultimate build on these tests?
Chris - Hi
In terms of boxes my preference is to keep it simple with just 2. I do not wish to have lots of boxes or cables. I cannot have something tall and thin that can be easily knocked over. Up to approx. 1.5m tall and 0.5m wide (59’’x20”). In building my own I am intrigued by the possibility of adding some artwork to the real estate the box offers to make it a feature within the room.
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