Hello,
recently I have spent a lot more time listening to vinyl with my "new" Yamaha PX-3, and I am loving it. But I think I could improve the sound in my room a bit.
I am considering to build new speakers. I have pretty good woodworking skills and a workshop to go with it, but only recently started to look deeper into acoustics and speaker design.
My current speakers are these:
DrTebi's Journal - T+A A3D Active to Passive Speaker Conversion
They sound nice, but I am missing some "openness" in the mid range. And although I get good deep low bass at the sweet spot, I am not getting a lot of bass in the not all-that-deep notes. And once I move away from the listening position, bass seems to disappear.
I am very curious about open baffle speakers, something with the Tang Band 1808 and an added woofer...
Anyway, my question is, should I first consider fixing the problematic listening room conditions? The image below is to scale. The blue lines are windows (about 6 feet tall). The brown things are furniture/piano, the blue big beast is a large couch, the speakers are red and so is the listening position. The ceiling is about 10 feet. There is also a carpet about twice as large as the couch, in front of the couch. I put a large thick blanket on the wall behind the listening position... that definitely helped control the sound somewhat.
But as you can see, the speakers are totally boxed in. This might be the reason for the deep low bass. And also for the not-so-clear midrange, since there is a lot of reflection going on right around the speaker, if I understand correctly.
I would appreciate any suggestions. Re-arranging the room, a speaker design that might fit the room better (line arrays, full-range open baffle?), acoustic treatment etc. I am open to try anything...
recently I have spent a lot more time listening to vinyl with my "new" Yamaha PX-3, and I am loving it. But I think I could improve the sound in my room a bit.
I am considering to build new speakers. I have pretty good woodworking skills and a workshop to go with it, but only recently started to look deeper into acoustics and speaker design.
My current speakers are these:
DrTebi's Journal - T+A A3D Active to Passive Speaker Conversion
They sound nice, but I am missing some "openness" in the mid range. And although I get good deep low bass at the sweet spot, I am not getting a lot of bass in the not all-that-deep notes. And once I move away from the listening position, bass seems to disappear.
I am very curious about open baffle speakers, something with the Tang Band 1808 and an added woofer...
Anyway, my question is, should I first consider fixing the problematic listening room conditions? The image below is to scale. The blue lines are windows (about 6 feet tall). The brown things are furniture/piano, the blue big beast is a large couch, the speakers are red and so is the listening position. The ceiling is about 10 feet. There is also a carpet about twice as large as the couch, in front of the couch. I put a large thick blanket on the wall behind the listening position... that definitely helped control the sound somewhat.
But as you can see, the speakers are totally boxed in. This might be the reason for the deep low bass. And also for the not-so-clear midrange, since there is a lot of reflection going on right around the speaker, if I understand correctly.
I would appreciate any suggestions. Re-arranging the room, a speaker design that might fit the room better (line arrays, full-range open baffle?), acoustic treatment etc. I am open to try anything...
Keeping the crossover inside the cabinet is no good 😛
Try also to keep the woofers ( sob! 2 woofers each ) at equal distance from ceiling to ground.
You can start by putting them on a stand upside down and assure the tweeter is pointed at ear(s)
Try also to keep the woofers ( sob! 2 woofers each ) at equal distance from ceiling to ground.
You can start by putting them on a stand upside down and assure the tweeter is pointed at ear(s)
The crossover is not in the same box... the box actually has two chambers (the bottom part once housed an active unit).
I was mostly concerned about the close proximity to the walls of the fireplace?
One rule is, never have a wall right behind your listening position. There could be problems with reflections. I've added a chair ( listeningposition ) to the room, where you could make a new sweetspot and also moved the speakers. If there are curtains between the windows and the loudspeakers, it should also be a bonus to avoid bad reflections ...you could try it and let us know if it works.
Edited illustration:
Edited illustration:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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I know, sometimes, re-arranging a room is not possible. There are constraints when sharing a common room.
Moving your listening place would help.
Adding as much room treatment as possible will help.
When all you can physically do is done, then it's time to look elsewhere.
Digital Room Correction will help getting you there.
Have a read here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ectrical-loudspeaker-correction-networks.html
Moving your listening place would help.
Adding as much room treatment as possible will help.
When all you can physically do is done, then it's time to look elsewhere.
Digital Room Correction will help getting you there.
Have a read here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...ectrical-loudspeaker-correction-networks.html
I see two major problems:
The wall behind your couch. That will reflect and send early reflections directly back to you. I had a similar problem, but could only move the couch 1 m forward, still no good.
You can check it by listening and moving your head forward and backwards, you'll hear a difference that is much, much greater than swapping amps!
My solution was a large 1 x 2 m area 3 inch deep picture frame filled with absorbing material, in my case for the 300 to 3000 Hz band. Covered with a nice poster.
The other issue you have is the large glass area at the right. That'll skew your stereo image with frequency. Is it a possibility to close some drapes for serious listening?
The problem with digital room correction is that it works only for a very small sweet spot, and often makes things worse for other positions. You seem to have hit the right spot for deep bass but not for medium bass. You may need some bass traps, or possibly an equalizer to attenuate that freq range. But I'd do the room things first.
Jan
The wall behind your couch. That will reflect and send early reflections directly back to you. I had a similar problem, but could only move the couch 1 m forward, still no good.
You can check it by listening and moving your head forward and backwards, you'll hear a difference that is much, much greater than swapping amps!
My solution was a large 1 x 2 m area 3 inch deep picture frame filled with absorbing material, in my case for the 300 to 3000 Hz band. Covered with a nice poster.
The other issue you have is the large glass area at the right. That'll skew your stereo image with frequency. Is it a possibility to close some drapes for serious listening?
The problem with digital room correction is that it works only for a very small sweet spot, and often makes things worse for other positions. You seem to have hit the right spot for deep bass but not for medium bass. You may need some bass traps, or possibly an equalizer to attenuate that freq range. But I'd do the room things first.
Jan
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Why don't you try some cheap experiments?
Kill the reflections off the fireplace corners and the area behind the speakers. Hang up some blankets or light rugs and see what it sounds like.
Consider distributed subs.
Is that window single or double glazed?
Kill the reflections off the fireplace corners and the area behind the speakers. Hang up some blankets or light rugs and see what it sounds like.
Consider distributed subs.
Is that window single or double glazed?
Firstly, very tasty work on your XO upgrades
KrammeAcoustics sketch has some good ideas- I always endeavour for symmetrical placement in relation to room boundaries and "native" acoustical properties before getting carried away with special treatments. Not all of us are blessed with dedicated spaces for music and/or home theatre systems that allow no holds barred treatment with bass traps, quadratic diffusers, strategically located broadband absorptive panels, etc.
Not mentioned is whether there are any window coverings- the option for thick full length curtains behind the speaker location in KA's sketch could well help, and distributed woofers/"subs" is always an excellent suggestion.
Open baffle systems certainly have there adherents, but should it be an issue, many of the exellecent performers might be very low on the WAF scale. Your towers are certainly elegant and tidy enough to pass that test for a lot of folks
KrammeAcoustics sketch has some good ideas- I always endeavour for symmetrical placement in relation to room boundaries and "native" acoustical properties before getting carried away with special treatments. Not all of us are blessed with dedicated spaces for music and/or home theatre systems that allow no holds barred treatment with bass traps, quadratic diffusers, strategically located broadband absorptive panels, etc.
Not mentioned is whether there are any window coverings- the option for thick full length curtains behind the speaker location in KA's sketch could well help, and distributed woofers/"subs" is always an excellent suggestion.
Open baffle systems certainly have there adherents, but should it be an issue, many of the exellecent performers might be very low on the WAF scale. Your towers are certainly elegant and tidy enough to pass that test for a lot of folks
Thank you for all your responses.
I toyed with the idea that KrammeAcoustics suggested in his edited illustration. But I thought of moving the couch to the listening position... but due to its enormous size, an additional chair makes a lot more sense. I could build a chair for now rather than new speakers...
A couple of things I forgot to mention:
- The windows are double-pane, and they are currently covered up with plastic (still remodeling the house). The initial idea was to put trim around the windows, and wooden shutters in front of them instead of curtains. Since they are still bare, I can rethink this idea to incorporate curtains instead.
- I forgot that there is also a small (about 24x16 inches, 4 feet tall) cabinet in front of the center window.
- The current setup does have a sound-absorbing thick 8 x 8 foot blanket behind the listening position, which helped with the reflections from behind the listening position.
I thought about building a hanging diffusion panel to put behind the sofa like this one:
.. not sure if that makes sense.
Digital room correction sounds interesting... but I would like to stay as analog as possible if that makes sense. I would really like to take some measurements though, I would appreciate any pointers to software/hardware.
So for now I think I will try a new arrangement like suggested by KrammeAcoustics, and go from there.
Still... my curiosity about full-range open baffle speakers is unstoppable 🙂
I also read a bit about subwoofers, and another option would be a pair of open baffle full range speakers with a separate subwoofer. I do have a pre-amp with two outputs, and an additional power-amp.
I toyed with the idea that KrammeAcoustics suggested in his edited illustration. But I thought of moving the couch to the listening position... but due to its enormous size, an additional chair makes a lot more sense. I could build a chair for now rather than new speakers...
A couple of things I forgot to mention:
- The windows are double-pane, and they are currently covered up with plastic (still remodeling the house). The initial idea was to put trim around the windows, and wooden shutters in front of them instead of curtains. Since they are still bare, I can rethink this idea to incorporate curtains instead.
- I forgot that there is also a small (about 24x16 inches, 4 feet tall) cabinet in front of the center window.
- The current setup does have a sound-absorbing thick 8 x 8 foot blanket behind the listening position, which helped with the reflections from behind the listening position.
I thought about building a hanging diffusion panel to put behind the sofa like this one:
.. not sure if that makes sense.
Digital room correction sounds interesting... but I would like to stay as analog as possible if that makes sense. I would really like to take some measurements though, I would appreciate any pointers to software/hardware.
So for now I think I will try a new arrangement like suggested by KrammeAcoustics, and go from there.
Still... my curiosity about full-range open baffle speakers is unstoppable 🙂
I also read a bit about subwoofers, and another option would be a pair of open baffle full range speakers with a separate subwoofer. I do have a pre-amp with two outputs, and an additional power-amp.
I keep reading quotes like this one a lot. Not my experience at all. Who ever thought the response outside of the sweet/measurement spot was any good without digital correction?
Once you stick to relative short correction windows my experience has been it sounds better in and out of the sweet spot.
Like with all tools it takes a bit of effort to get the most out of it. I'd still do everything you can to optimise the room and positioning. But based on my own experience I'd have to say digital room correction can be a very positive addition.
I'd like to know where that idea about a very small sweet spot comes from. Once you realise what using frequency dependant windowing can do for FIR corrections it starts to make more sense.
I'll shut up now as the OP already hinted at staying analog. There is enough information on this forum on digital room correction to debunk the generalisation in the above quote. In my eyes that view is a big misconception. No (personal) harm intended.
Sorry for the O.T.
P.S. I can vouch for the damping panel behind the listening position. Worked very well for me. If the wall remains close I don't think I would opt for diffusion. Here's my panel.
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The funny thing is, that my current speakers were once active speakers (T+A AD3), and the company offered a kit to do digital room correction which could then be permanently programmed into the digital-active units of the speakers.
But, as you can see in the conversion post, the active units broke too often and I converted the speakers to passive speakers...
But, as you can see in the conversion post, the active units broke too often and I converted the speakers to passive speakers...
Just what I was going to recommend. A few well dispersed plants may help and if hard wood floor some rugs between the listening chair and the speakers may help.
I've found Jim Smith's book "Getting Better Sound" quite helpful.
I've found Jim Smith's book "Getting Better Sound" quite helpful.
If the speakers are relocated spanning the breadth of the bay window alcove as per KA's floor plan, I'd imagine that if the couch on right hand wall is too heavy to easily move, it would provide as much damping/ treatment as that side of the room would need- at least during the initial stages of re-tuning the system. If anything, to attempt a rough balance of properties on the two walks, above the fireplace mantle on left side of room might benefit from damping - such as a thick tapestry, or such, and the wall above the couch from something like the shallow quadratic diffusers in your post above.
I'd also be prepared to move the coffee table to at least a central location and cover with light absorptive layer during any "serious" listening sessions.
I'd also be prepared to move the coffee table to at least a central location and cover with light absorptive layer during any "serious" listening sessions.
I did a lot of work with a DEQX. To make the response flat at the listening position, the system needs to correct for relatively narrow deviations in the response. So these corrections have a specific frequency and phase requirement. Thing is, when you move to a different spot, the corrections need to be at a different freq and phase and are of course not implemented. What's worse, the corrections for the sweet spot, where you measured, are now, in a different position, mostly wrong and make the response even worse.
I don't know of any way to fix that.
Some systems let you do measurements in different positions and then take a sort of average, but that only means that in the sweet spot it isn't as good as it can be, and in other positions it still is a bit worse than without. Can't win.
I then sold my DEQX and made better speakers and better room ;-)
Jan
There is something hopeless but it's not the room 
What about my three piece of advice ?
Is it so difficult to put the speakers upside down ?
Is it to difficult to place the crossover pieces out of the box ( whatever you intend as a box ) ?
What about my three piece of advice ?
Is it so difficult to put the speakers upside down ?
Is it to difficult to place the crossover pieces out of the box ( whatever you intend as a box ) ?
The space above the fireplace mantel is already occupied... it's a mirror normally, but when the TV behind it is on, it's a TV... pretty neat, and I can't take that away:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
There is a fairly large carpet under the coffee table (not in the picture above), spanning the width of the sofa and the space between sofa and fireplace.
Anyway, tomorrow I will experiment with the layout of the speakers along the bay window.
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What correction window length was used to make the EQ decisions. I tried IIR PEQ myself using REW measurements and JRiver. I experienced what you describe. It was horrible off axis.
But I have no such experience with DRC-FIR correction and using say, 4 cycle windows.
Longer windows introduce more differences in the frequency response off axis due to the room itself. Shorter windows make you correct the driver more than the room above Schroeder. It tries to correct room and driver below it.(*) One of the things it can do is lessen the effect of early reflections.
I measured along my couch after a correction in one spot. The average of those measurements were a spitting image of the target I used. I have no crossovers to introduce unbalanced off axis behaviour. That surely helps.
Though look for posts by mitchba to see examples of a corrected 3 way with Acourate. He showed measurements taken over a wide area as well.
Again, sorry for the OT. and sorry to hear Active wasn't behaving/performing properly for the OP. There are a lot of different ways of running active. My personal solution is PC based and won't be everyone's cup of tea.
(*) = Still have to be careful even there. You can't correct everything digitally. And in no way I'm suggesting this to be a replacement for proper room treatment. But in my opinion it can help.
By the way, beautiful fireplace and nice TV solution!
I don't remember the specific data, but it was a two-step process. First the speakers were equalised for the mic position. In a second run, the room was equalised for the same position.
Not sure I understand the window thing. What is the problem here I think is that the freq response can be vastly different even if you move your head 10 inches. I can't see how you can equalise for different positions with the same corrections. A required correction peak for one position may become a dip at another position due to distance and phase differences, making things worse.
Jan
Not sure I understand the window thing. What is the problem here I think is that the freq response can be vastly different even if you move your head 10 inches. I can't see how you can equalise for different positions with the same corrections. A required correction peak for one position may become a dip at another position due to distance and phase differences, making things worse.
Jan
wesayso has done extensive work with DRC. That's the window thing.
It is not a "one-click" solution to room acoustics... It's a "hands-on" approach, which is good or bad depending on one's views. If one is looking for a quick way to do room acoustics, just like others like ARC, Acourate, ... then DEQX is, I believe, in the same company (albeit a pricey one as I can see).
DRC is free. But it also means a more hands-on, gritty way to do things. You have complete control over all the things that are automated in other programs. The learning curve is there, of course, so it's not for everybody. Because you have access to all functions, it is more powerful than an automated design. Although there is the ugly side of it... using the wrong parameters will result is a less than adequate experience.
A short read is the link I provided on the first page of this forum.
A longer read is within the middle section of the lengthy thread about wesayso's Twin Towers.
I believe DRC has the ability to help with less than perfect rooms. It is worth the shot, when all physically improvements have been done, and there's still room for improvement. I know, 'cos I have a less than perfect room to contend with and I have heard it do its "magic".
That means that one needs to use a computer to handle the data.
I have been without a computer before and in the last few years, with a computer to handle my music experience.
I wouldn't go back to the old way. And I'm not a spring chicken who is smitten by new tech... I like old school... but, in this case, I like DRC.
How does DRC or any other program solve this problem:
'What is the problem here I think is that the freq response can be vastly different even if you move your head 10 inches. I can't see how you can equalise for different positions with the same corrections. A required correction peak for one position may become a dip at another position due to distance and phase differences, making things worse.'
Jan
'What is the problem here I think is that the freq response can be vastly different even if you move your head 10 inches. I can't see how you can equalise for different positions with the same corrections. A required correction peak for one position may become a dip at another position due to distance and phase differences, making things worse.'
Jan
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