I heard the B&W 802 with diamond tweeters and kevlar midrange this weekend. They sounded fine but were lacking in many respects - especially for $15,000!
Bass is not balanced: The overall sound is dry. Looking at the speaker you expect more bass. Closing your eyes leaves you wanting more bass too.
Too much midrange: The mids overpower the presentation. I even thought the midrange was strident at times. The salesperson lowered the volume in the middle of a song.
Treble is also a bit overpowering: While relatively smooth anything that clinks or clanks called attention to itself.
I say this as a reminder to all of us to stay the course and keep building! Full range drivers with bass support offer a more enjoyable experience. I'd take full range drivers on top of H-frames anytime over the B&Ws... which the salesman indicated will be completely redesigned soon - new tweeter and cabinet shape. Price will increase too!
Bass is not balanced: The overall sound is dry. Looking at the speaker you expect more bass. Closing your eyes leaves you wanting more bass too.
Too much midrange: The mids overpower the presentation. I even thought the midrange was strident at times. The salesperson lowered the volume in the middle of a song.
Treble is also a bit overpowering: While relatively smooth anything that clinks or clanks called attention to itself.
I say this as a reminder to all of us to stay the course and keep building! Full range drivers with bass support offer a more enjoyable experience. I'd take full range drivers on top of H-frames anytime over the B&Ws... which the salesman indicated will be completely redesigned soon - new tweeter and cabinet shape. Price will increase too!
Thanks for the comment and suggestion for us to keep doing what we do. I have to agree with you that many of my builds sound far better than anything I have heard in stores. Although I have never listened to the crazy expensive $60k plus speakers. A well designed FAST is tough to beat for great music listening. DIY synergy horns are also very hard to beat. I wonder why the B&W's sounded so dry and bass lacking. The measurements of other 802's don't look bad - although I have not seen the diamond though.
"DIYers stay the course - much better value building your own!"
+1 on that account Godzilla! I have found that every build I've done (6 to-date) have exceeded what I could have purchased on the open market monetarily and for overall performance. In DIY you have the option to tweak for performance, and get the sound that matches our expectations, not the manufactures design goals! Great post for us all both beginner and seasoned veteran, so a big thanks to you sir!!
Mac
+1 on that account Godzilla! I have found that every build I've done (6 to-date) have exceeded what I could have purchased on the open market monetarily and for overall performance. In DIY you have the option to tweak for performance, and get the sound that matches our expectations, not the manufactures design goals! Great post for us all both beginner and seasoned veteran, so a big thanks to you sir!!
Mac
Godzilla,
Another +1 or make it +10 (or more...)
Also, wouldn't you agree that building your own is also therapeutic?
On the subject of sound, listened to the B&W 802 Diamond last year - found it better than the Sonus Faber ($16k Cremona?), and Martin Logan ($12k speakers) which were also there. I was surprised to find the SF treble on the strident side (read lot about SF sounding warm). The Martin Logan system had subwoofers, and I felt the sound was a bit fat in the bass, but did not sound as dynamic as the 802. The B&W 802 sounded the most balanced of the three. They were playing some Brazilian Reggae band... Amps were McIntosh.
The SF speakers were the prettiest though...
Another +1 or make it +10 (or more...)
Also, wouldn't you agree that building your own is also therapeutic?
On the subject of sound, listened to the B&W 802 Diamond last year - found it better than the Sonus Faber ($16k Cremona?), and Martin Logan ($12k speakers) which were also there. I was surprised to find the SF treble on the strident side (read lot about SF sounding warm). The Martin Logan system had subwoofers, and I felt the sound was a bit fat in the bass, but did not sound as dynamic as the 802. The B&W 802 sounded the most balanced of the three. They were playing some Brazilian Reggae band... Amps were McIntosh.
The SF speakers were the prettiest though...
If this was facebook, I'd "like" this.
I've often wondered as a DIYer if there's any point at making speakers yourself. The speaker manufacturers have much better measurement facilities and such compared to what I could ever manage to conjure in my apartment. Also the woodworking, drivers, electronics, etc... all are much cheaper when you are making 200 or 2000 speakers instead of 2.
I've often wondered as a DIYer if there's any point at making speakers yourself. The speaker manufacturers have much better measurement facilities and such compared to what I could ever manage to conjure in my apartment. Also the woodworking, drivers, electronics, etc... all are much cheaper when you are making 200 or 2000 speakers instead of 2.
What kind of room were the B&W's in? I think the listening environment plays a huge role in our perceived sound experience. At home you have all the control you need to make it fit your room. Even optimise the room within your own limits (I know I sure have limits with a family at home).
That's another advantage to us DIY-ers. I bet in the right room the B&W can sound very good. But usually these things are not optimised (though they should be for a speaker at that price point) at the stores.
I'm not saying we can't do better, actually I say we can if we keep our room in mind.
That's another advantage to us DIY-ers. I bet in the right room the B&W can sound very good. But usually these things are not optimised (though they should be for a speaker at that price point) at the stores.
I'm not saying we can't do better, actually I say we can if we keep our room in mind.
>>> Also, wouldn't you agree that building your own is also therapeutic...
Absolutely!
The B&Ws were in a room that was too large. But the listening couch was nice! All I know is when my boys and I got home we put on music and liked the sound much better.
I remember returning from audio stores and wishing my system could sound as good. We may not have access to all the cool measuring gear but we have lots of experienced builders, lots of trial and error and plenty of elbow grease. Certianily building for a specific room helps a lot too.
Absolutely!
The B&Ws were in a room that was too large. But the listening couch was nice! All I know is when my boys and I got home we put on music and liked the sound much better.
I remember returning from audio stores and wishing my system could sound as good. We may not have access to all the cool measuring gear but we have lots of experienced builders, lots of trial and error and plenty of elbow grease. Certianily building for a specific room helps a lot too.
Dave & I have both a rather long history working at, listening in and buying from that local hi-fi emporium (not necessarily in order or singularly), and while I can quite appreciate the R&D and production engineering behind the B&W 800 series, they and the last 20yrs or so models of big Linn multi-amped speakers are not quite my cup of tea sonically. I wouldn't exactly describe them as underwhelming - I think their reputation perhaps exceeded my personal interpretation of their performance.
The fact that I'd rather spend $40K or more on a new SUV than a set of speakers notwithstanding, if gifted with a limitless AMEX platinum card and no longer able to build my own, I'd probably go for something like the Ellipsa. Well, to be honest, its aesthetics was part of our inspiration for one of our own recent builds, which turned out rather well, and cost probably a tenth of the commercial product. That of course is exactly why we DIY nut-jobs stick with this for so long - if I was to put on my bean-counter hat and accurately evaluate the cost in time and materials of all the speakers I've built in the past 15 yrs and not sold, I'm sure it'd be well into the high 5 digits.. Geeze, I'm glad I pursued that thought through - my wife's right once again
The fact that I'd rather spend $40K or more on a new SUV than a set of speakers notwithstanding, if gifted with a limitless AMEX platinum card and no longer able to build my own, I'd probably go for something like the Ellipsa. Well, to be honest, its aesthetics was part of our inspiration for one of our own recent builds, which turned out rather well, and cost probably a tenth of the commercial product. That of course is exactly why we DIY nut-jobs stick with this for so long - if I was to put on my bean-counter hat and accurately evaluate the cost in time and materials of all the speakers I've built in the past 15 yrs and not sold, I'm sure it'd be well into the high 5 digits.. Geeze, I'm glad I pursued that thought through - my wife's right once again
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About $900 USD at retail in drivers, leaving about $1100 for boxes. It was Chris' 1st time attempt using the building tech he did, and it took a long time, so at that budget he would not be paid very well… but he has already started to amortize the earlier work, a set of curved Pensil7.3
dave
The best systems I've heard have been home brewed ones by crazy DIY'er hifi nuts. This is compared to anything, including $50k+ commercial products. DIY'ers always have led the way. This was apparently true even in the "golden age of hifi" in the 50's, or so the old timers have told me.
I'm sure many of you have heard more high end commercial stereos than I have. They vary widely in quality, and price doesn't necessarily correlate with performance.
I'm sure many of you have heard more high end commercial stereos than I have. They vary widely in quality, and price doesn't necessarily correlate with performance.
And if you want it louder, add more drivers! Here is 3-way with a TG9FD doing the heavy lifting in the mids with a soft dome tweeter taking over the super tweeter territory. The dual Beta 12's really work quite well as bass units for OB. This is a quasi transient perfect speaker with 3-way symmetric Harsch XO that I developed.
And it sounds really good - lots of dynamic range and easiness, superb mids and great detail up high.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/88135-filler-driver-ala-b-o-3.html
I have been building loud speaker systems and amplifiers since around 1980.
I started with Maplin amplifier kits as I hadnt got into electronics at that time.
I built Maplins 50 watt bi-polar , 75 watt mosfet and 225WRMS bi-polar amplifiers.
The 225WRMS amp I used for a mobile disco.
I built 2 loud speaker cabinets with 2 Fane 50WRMS drivers in each.
The speakers werent even hifi but guitar speakers.
It was easily loud enough for the small to medium sized venues I worked in.
Since then I slowly got into amplifier design and have designed tube, bi-polar and mosfet amps of my own. I have even done a few tube/SS hybrids.
I was a software engineer for a few years so used that knowledge to design a USB controlled analogue mixer.
Getting to the point now where i have pretty much done it all so looking for new projects to take on.
I started with Maplin amplifier kits as I hadnt got into electronics at that time.
I built Maplins 50 watt bi-polar , 75 watt mosfet and 225WRMS bi-polar amplifiers.
The 225WRMS amp I used for a mobile disco.
I built 2 loud speaker cabinets with 2 Fane 50WRMS drivers in each.
The speakers werent even hifi but guitar speakers.
It was easily loud enough for the small to medium sized venues I worked in.
Since then I slowly got into amplifier design and have designed tube, bi-polar and mosfet amps of my own. I have even done a few tube/SS hybrids.
I was a software engineer for a few years so used that knowledge to design a USB controlled analogue mixer.
Getting to the point now where i have pretty much done it all so looking for new projects to take on.
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