Oh, yeah. A10.3.
That's the deal, Chris. Nobody measures in-room. I have a 10dB room mode at 43Hz. Because it is rather low Q, it is adding 5dB to the normal F3/F10 levels. It should be boomy, but it isn't. It just adds definition to low double basses and such.
I have the exact opposite problem in my garage/shop. It sucks out the bass below ~50Hz, so I always have to guess as to what the real bottom is. I usually add the driver/port nearfield to the bottom end of gated measurements, but is that real? Who knows. A big anechoic chamber would be nice.
Are these with or without the sub?
The black trace is with the sub and DSP. The red trace is the A10.3 alone with no DSP. Note how nicely the DSP covers up the baffle hump!
Bob
You wouldn't believe how acoustically awful the room actually is. Front wall has a 6.5'x3.5' sliding glass door in the left corner that is normally open. The right wall and the back wall are glass. The left wall has a 6.5'x10' opening into the great room. The sub is in the right front corner and the surrounds are in the back corners.
I can't apply any DSP from a computer because HDMI bypasses everything. But it occurs to me that I have a miniDSP mixed in that box with all of the obsolete T-amps. The AVR does have pre-outs, so I could use the 2.1 app on the miniDSP and straighten everything out. Since my listening levels are pretty low, I could add a pseudo-Linkwitz transform to the sub and lower the bass maybe a half octave.
Hmmmmmm,
Bob
I can't apply any DSP from a computer because HDMI bypasses everything. But it occurs to me that I have a miniDSP mixed in that box with all of the obsolete T-amps. The AVR does have pre-outs, so I could use the 2.1 app on the miniDSP and straighten everything out. Since my listening levels are pretty low, I could add a pseudo-Linkwitz transform to the sub and lower the bass maybe a half octave.
Hmmmmmm,
Bob
Does Pensil12.2 slam like multi-way?
Bringing back the old thread.
For those who have built the Pensil 12p or 12.2P, does it slam like those multi-way floor standing? I'm not talking about earth shattering, chest thumbing bass, but the "impact" or "weight" if you know what I mean.
Currently got a pair of FH MK3 with MA A7.3, it's great for vocal jazz or light music, but the lack of impact annoy me sometimes. Adding a sub is out of question as it will not pass the WAF
. So the only other option is to build something simple with bigger driver like MA12.2P. Hopefully it has that impact I'm after.
Bringing back the old thread.
For those who have built the Pensil 12p or 12.2P, does it slam like those multi-way floor standing? I'm not talking about earth shattering, chest thumbing bass, but the "impact" or "weight" if you know what I mean.
Currently got a pair of FH MK3 with MA A7.3, it's great for vocal jazz or light music, but the lack of impact annoy me sometimes. Adding a sub is out of question as it will not pass the WAF
. So the only other option is to build something simple with bigger driver like MA12.2P. Hopefully it has that impact I'm after.
Jeff, you're up.
Not even a woofer that doubles as a deflector (and doesn't look like a speaker)?
I don't hav eany good pictures, but they can be seen in the picture in the 1st post here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/280803-mark-audio-alpair-5-2-enclosures.html
They have the solid Yew µFonkenSET sitting on top.
dave
Not even a woofer that doubles as a deflector (and doesn't look like a speaker)?
I don't hav eany good pictures, but they can be seen in the picture in the 1st post here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/280803-mark-audio-alpair-5-2-enclosures.html
They have the solid Yew µFonkenSET sitting on top.
dave
Emery - as Dave noted above, Jeff can pipe in with a subjective observation as the 12P's slam-rating. I've heard his SuperPensils a few times, and they can certainly deliver more by themselves than your FH3/7.3, but as a pair of official old farts our SPL requirements might not be the same as yours. You should be advised in advance that this driver wants a pretty big box to fully deliver the goods.
If the WAF of a small powered subwoofer stashed in a corner to flesh out the bottom with the FH3s is low, we might want to get Jeff to post a photo of his cabinets for submission to SWMBO.
While this thread is about the 12Ps, in many cases with domestic considerations a viable alternative might be either of the A10s - they definitely go lower than the 7s, at the expense of an ineffable upper midrange "magic", and can do so in a much smaller enclosure footprint than the SuperPensils. Either of the 10s work very well in the FHXL - I still can't decide if I have an overall favorite between those 2
If the WAF of a small powered subwoofer stashed in a corner to flesh out the bottom with the FH3s is low, we might want to get Jeff to post a photo of his cabinets for submission to SWMBO.
While this thread is about the 12Ps, in many cases with domestic considerations a viable alternative might be either of the A10s - they definitely go lower than the 7s, at the expense of an ineffable upper midrange "magic", and can do so in a much smaller enclosure footprint than the SuperPensils. Either of the 10s work very well in the FHXL - I still can't decide if I have an overall favorite between those 2
In my room, they will definitely play with impact, and at SPL's that the smaller drivers can only dream of. Not a big room thou, 13' x 17' with an 10' x 13' "L" section off one end.
What is your room size, and amplifier power/type?
Here's an old pic, before the drivers were Enabled by Dave.
jeff
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Thanks Dave, this may work if I can come up with a colour scheme and a bit of creativity to make it "disappear"
Then again, with all this trouble of building the deflector and stuff, replacing the speakers seems like an easier fix. Emery - as Dave noted above, Jeff can pipe in with a subjective observation as the 12P's slam-rating. I've heard his SuperPensils a few times, and they can certainly deliver more by themselves than your FH3/7.3, but as a pair of official old farts our SPL requirements might not be the same as yours. You should be advised in advance that this driver wants a pretty big box to fully deliver the goods.
If the WAF of a small powered subwoofer stashed in a corner to flesh out the bottom with the FH3s is low, we might want to get Jeff to post a photo of his cabinets for submission to SWMBO.
While this thread is about the 12Ps, in many cases with domestic considerations a viable alternative might be either of the A10s - they definitely go lower than the 7s, at the expense of an ineffable upper midrange "magic", and can do so in a much smaller enclosure footprint than the SuperPensils. Either of the 10s work very well in the FHXL - I still can't decide if I have an overall favorite between those 2
Thanks Chris, I'll keep that in mind.
Just FYI I did tried a small el-cheapo 6" powered sub I pull out from the pile in the garage when the SWMBO was out with the kids. It did elevate the bass to another level, and it slammed hard. But there's one problem, it didn't "disappear", it didn't blend-in, as in I can locate the sub no matter how I adjust the level and x-over. I guess it's due to the sub was sitting in corner just under the little sitting bench on right hand side. (See my listening room below).
That's encouraging. I don't need extreme bass but I do want the double bass to sounds like double bass and kick drum sounds kick drum. With the FH3 I can only hear the note but not the impact.
my room is big, it's a 10x10m (~33'x 33' ? sorry I'm imperial challenged) with 1 section of 4x5m as outdoor living room, so it's a L shaped open plan kitchen/Family/Dinner room, a typical aussie McMansion
. I don't listen to high SPL. The Amp is a DIY LM3886 Gainclone.EmeryBB,
G'day mate! Btw, nice room you have there... no wonder SWMBO has her reservations.
If you are looking energy in the mid-bass, it is quite unlikely a single driver full-range system will fully satisfy you. The Alp-12P in the Super Pensils is a good sounding speaker, but good 2 ways will beat it in mid-bass slam and impact. Among the Alpair's the driver with most slam/punch is the Alpair 10.2 (now discontinued). The Alpair 10P (newer paper cone) is good too, so is the Alp 10.3, but these drivers trade off a slight bit of bass vs the older Alp 10.2, but have more articulate mid and top end. And, still they go plenty low. The Alpair 12P will go louder than the 10.x drivers though (bigger cone, more efficient).
Maybe you can look into FAST (Full range ASsiTed with woofers) designs. There is a Alpair 12PW paper cone Bass-wide driver too, and that being a high bandwdith driver should be quite easy to pair with a smaller FR driver or tweeter. FAST is likely to involve 2 amps though. One diyA member Bill Poster is currently working on a project with Alp 12PW and ribbon tweets (2 way speaker with XO), maybe he can chime in after he's got more progress.
If you want to go with FR design without crossovers and a single amp, another CRAZY idea is have 2 x Alpair 10.x per cabinet. I do not know of anybody who has done it yet, but theoritically it should be possible. The cabinet volume will be taller but less deep than a Super Pensil and the cost of the drivers will be a bit higher... and we'll need the help of diyA to get the other details right.
G'day mate! Btw, nice room you have there... no wonder SWMBO has her reservations.
If you are looking energy in the mid-bass, it is quite unlikely a single driver full-range system will fully satisfy you. The Alp-12P in the Super Pensils is a good sounding speaker, but good 2 ways will beat it in mid-bass slam and impact. Among the Alpair's the driver with most slam/punch is the Alpair 10.2 (now discontinued). The Alpair 10P (newer paper cone) is good too, so is the Alp 10.3, but these drivers trade off a slight bit of bass vs the older Alp 10.2, but have more articulate mid and top end. And, still they go plenty low. The Alpair 12P will go louder than the 10.x drivers though (bigger cone, more efficient).
Maybe you can look into FAST (Full range ASsiTed with woofers) designs. There is a Alpair 12PW paper cone Bass-wide driver too, and that being a high bandwdith driver should be quite easy to pair with a smaller FR driver or tweeter. FAST is likely to involve 2 amps though. One diyA member Bill Poster is currently working on a project with Alp 12PW and ribbon tweets (2 way speaker with XO), maybe he can chime in after he's got more progress.
If you want to go with FR design without crossovers and a single amp, another CRAZY idea is have 2 x Alpair 10.x per cabinet. I do not know of anybody who has done it yet, but theoritically it should be possible. The cabinet volume will be taller but less deep than a Super Pensil and the cost of the drivers will be a bit higher... and we'll need the help of diyA to get the other details right.
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this may work if I can come up with a colour scheme and a bit of creativity to make it "disappear"
Either way you'll need to build another set of speakers.
1/ build A12p Super Pensils, gain the slam you are missing, but loose the wonderful mid/top of the A7 (i'm not saying the A12 is bad, just the A7.3 is better)
2/ build helper woofers for the FH3, gain the slam at the same time as improve the mid/top (by removing the bass and by acting as a deflector to minimize stuff coming back off the wall into the horn mouth). You'll have to add an amp for the woofers, and an XO, but that last can be a simple PLLXO.
The likely reason your woofer experiment failed is likely because as a commercial woofer it is trying to be a subwoofer for movies, and a 6" woofer aiming to go that low is likely extremely compromised. Use decent midbasses and you will get the HF extension and control you need to get a good blend.
And you wife will have a couple decorative pillars to put vases on.
dave
If you want to go with FR design without crossovers and a single amp, another CRAZY idea is have 2 x Alpair 10.x per cabinet. I do not know of anybody who has done it yet, but theoritically it should be possible. The cabinet volume will be taller but less deep than a Super Pensil and the cost of the drivers will be a bit higher... and we'll need the help of diyA to get the other details right.
Zia,
It is not that crazy. I have drawn up a couple plans for such things… and i just did a design for a fellow in Denmark for 4 x CHP70 (gen1). There are a number of ways to wire them up. If they go down like the EL70 they will be significant generators or articulate bass.
4 x A10.x would move a significant amount of air.
dave
Here's another not so crazy idea - 2 X A12PW and A7 per side in an MTM -like the SuperPensil, this combo kicks serious butt - with a similar price of enclosure size. ( oh and the approx $500USD for the 4 Alpairs) So far we've only tried them with the 7P, but I'm sorely tempted to drop in the MAOPs
Hope that combination doesn't sound too good, 'cause I might need more amps to go active with them and retain the front wide/height surrounds in my 5.1, and would probably want to upgrade the centre from single 10P
Vicious bloody circle it is, then - and I thought I'd disembarked from the upgrade carousel.
Hope that combination doesn't sound too good, 'cause I might need more amps to go active with them and retain the front wide/height surrounds in my 5.1, and would probably want to upgrade the centre from single 10P
Vicious bloody circle it is, then - and I thought I'd disembarked from the upgrade carousel
.
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Real Life IMO. Small drivers make Small sounds. Physics 101.
Not to say they can't sound like more than they are.
But there are limits to what even the best of Boxes can manage.
Subs, in MY experiences are Bodges.. sometimes seamless, but rarely so. Often costing more than a decent sized bass capable driver would have in the first place .
Home theatre Territory imo.
Why Not try something like a Nirvana 8 incher?? Fairly affordable and at least with enough piston area to provide some slam and realism.
They don't go very low… in an optimum vented cab i get 60 Hz F10 for the Classic 8 and the Cast Super 8 doesn't do as well as that.
dave
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