I'm seeking a good current production driver which is similar to but better than the models I currently have:
Fostex 105WK is fine except for a narrow peak just under 7kHz. If the spike was over 10kHz or I was a decade or three older, it would probably be great. As it is, the driver is a bit steely or fatiguing if playing above very quiet levels. My pair are stock and close to advertised specs (slightly weak). Over 10kHz, these measure better than many tweeters.
P.Audio SN4-60F is like a pro version of the Fostex, and is good in many ways - more robust easier to listen to, good extension. Not ruler flat either, but most of its sins are above 10kHz where they are less detectable. 3/4 of the units I got are 'better' than advertised specs (Qts and Fs low), one had a defective / undercharged magnet. Their maximum excursion seems well over the advertised amount.
The P.Audio has a large, very wide magnet, very solid but relatively closed in frame and no modern features.
I was wondering what similar driver exists, but with a more advanced motor and/or better frame.
My current implementation is for 330Hz and up, in a front horn, via mini DSP. I like how miniscule excursion and distortion are, and I'd like to retain this (similar or higher efficiency, driver size). Extension to near 20kHz not absolutely necessary, I'm more ok with a super tweeter than with spiky response in or near the vocal range.
Fostex 105WK is fine except for a narrow peak just under 7kHz. If the spike was over 10kHz or I was a decade or three older, it would probably be great. As it is, the driver is a bit steely or fatiguing if playing above very quiet levels. My pair are stock and close to advertised specs (slightly weak). Over 10kHz, these measure better than many tweeters.
P.Audio SN4-60F is like a pro version of the Fostex, and is good in many ways - more robust easier to listen to, good extension. Not ruler flat either, but most of its sins are above 10kHz where they are less detectable. 3/4 of the units I got are 'better' than advertised specs (Qts and Fs low), one had a defective / undercharged magnet. Their maximum excursion seems well over the advertised amount.
The P.Audio has a large, very wide magnet, very solid but relatively closed in frame and no modern features.
I was wondering what similar driver exists, but with a more advanced motor and/or better frame.
My current implementation is for 330Hz and up, in a front horn, via mini DSP. I like how miniscule excursion and distortion are, and I'd like to retain this (similar or higher efficiency, driver size). Extension to near 20kHz not absolutely necessary, I'm more ok with a super tweeter than with spiky response in or near the vocal range.
Take a look at the PRV 5MR450NDY. Ultra low distortion, 95dB sensitive, smooth response paper cone with high tech Nd motor. Sounds wonderful in a front loaded horn XO above 275Hz.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...450-ndy-fast-applications-12.html#post4035911
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...450-ndy-fast-applications-12.html#post4035911
Thanks, that or a similar Faital were high on my list of possibilities.
They look like they tick the same boxes as the drivers I have, but the smaller neo magnets are a selling point (for lower reflection, weight is not a factor). I'm superficial enough to hate the logo!
Parts of my project have been inspired by your posts.
They look like they tick the same boxes as the drivers I have, but the smaller neo magnets are a selling point (for lower reflection, weight is not a factor). I'm superficial enough to hate the logo!
Parts of my project have been inspired by your posts.
Except for less bass, FF85wk is a bit better than FF105wk. During treatment we take some specific steps to ameriolate the resonances.
dave
I've used vintage JBL LE5 on a 250Hz tractrix - response on axis like 7KHz - dunno if the current parameters are the same as when ran them but got the crazy spec of qes ~4.33 ! and qts ~1.88 (fs ~321) the later model called 104H measures with qt ~0.67 and IIRC, is an octave short of those LE5
Thanks for the responses. I hadn't seen many until recently, through unfamiliarity with how the forum does notification.
Looking over the suggestions: I can't even consider vintage US stuff - not much of it is available in Australia. Also, it looks like I'm chasing a unicorn. The 4" and slightly larger drivers all seem to have a crazy patch at 6 or 7 kHz.
I re-measured my drivers (on OB and horn) recently*. The horn seems to make on axis bumps worse but off axis smoother and more extended. It also gives substantial gain (10-15dB over a pretty wide range (400 to over 2kHz). So I'm now wondering if I should consider a slightly lower output, small driver, like the feted Scan-Speak 10F. The horn boost and electronic high pass should give the final system decent capability vs a purist full range implementation. Has this unit (or similar) been measured in front horns before?
Another option is the Scan-Speak 15M. Really flat to 10kHz on-axis, bonkers off axis. Not sure if horn loading would cure / smooth this. Same price as the 10F.
*I will try to add some images /measurements soon.
Looking over the suggestions: I can't even consider vintage US stuff - not much of it is available in Australia. Also, it looks like I'm chasing a unicorn. The 4" and slightly larger drivers all seem to have a crazy patch at 6 or 7 kHz.
I re-measured my drivers (on OB and horn) recently*. The horn seems to make on axis bumps worse but off axis smoother and more extended. It also gives substantial gain (10-15dB over a pretty wide range (400 to over 2kHz). So I'm now wondering if I should consider a slightly lower output, small driver, like the feted Scan-Speak 10F. The horn boost and electronic high pass should give the final system decent capability vs a purist full range implementation. Has this unit (or similar) been measured in front horns before?
Another option is the Scan-Speak 15M. Really flat to 10kHz on-axis, bonkers off axis. Not sure if horn loading would cure / smooth this. Same price as the 10F.
*I will try to add some images /measurements soon.
Top to bottom: on axis, 15 off axis, 30 off axis. All were measured at the same level, then shifted for clarity. The Fostex is always red, and is always bumped up 5dB relative to the PAudio, because the graphs seemed easier to view that way.
All are 1m ground plane, with the OB tilted to point at the mic, with some use of cushions to reduce room reflections. So: nothing like a professional test, but comparative trends show clearly enough.
Neither driver is outright bad. Both have a bump around 7kHz. The Fostex bump is broader and part of a general HF rise, so it is more in need of taming. To my ears.
All are 1m ground plane, with the OB tilted to point at the mic, with some use of cushions to reduce room reflections. So: nothing like a professional test, but comparative trends show clearly enough.
Neither driver is outright bad. Both have a bump around 7kHz. The Fostex bump is broader and part of a general HF rise, so it is more in need of taming. To my ears.
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Thanks Pepe, good suggestion despite not being a paper cone - it could still meet the requirements, and certainly doesn't have the frame & huge magnet 'problem' the 4" P.Audio drivers do. Unfortunately, these B&G planars appear to be only available on the 2nd hand market.
I did buy the roughly similar Daytom AMT (Pro 4), not to horn load, but to accessorise the horn - like in this picture. I never considered looking for a planar to cover the midband.
It is all hypothetical for now. My horn projects are now in storage. I'm living somewhere smaller, and am back to my old system which is a little more compact and a lot more finished (15" coaxial tops +dual 15" midbass).
I did buy the roughly similar Daytom AMT (Pro 4), not to horn load, but to accessorise the horn - like in this picture. I never considered looking for a planar to cover the midband.
It is all hypothetical for now. My horn projects are now in storage. I'm living somewhere smaller, and am back to my old system which is a little more compact and a lot more finished (15" coaxial tops +dual 15" midbass).
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Seems like the bg drivers are again available for the diy market, at least the neo family. Partsexpress did have neo8s in stock just a few days ago. Hopefully they will get more drivers soon.
Is that a BMS coax cd on that horn? If so, you really think a pappercone driver could better that one?
Is that a BMS coax cd on that horn? If so, you really think a pappercone driver could better that one?
I see now. I was hunting for old model numbers, and that brings up dead pages at Partsexpress (product no longer available). If I instead look by brand name, it looks they are still viable / new stock is more likely.
Sorry for the confusion - the picture is from the web (a Japanese showroom, I think), so I don't know what is on top. I just grabbed the picture to illustrate how I was using planars to accessorise a horn, rather than to drive the horn.
I hadn't realised there was any planar suited for horn use down to ~300Hz - let alone an affordable planar.
Considering this now, based on:
1) commercial designs (Beyma etc) where the horns are all quite shallow, with 80-120 degree horizontal dispersion
2) the frailty of their diaphragms (compared to compression driver diaphragms)
3) very limited vertical dispersion
...if the objective is to fill a room down to ~300Hz, it seems that adding wings to an array of planars would be a better idea than using a single planar in a "proper" horn, as if it was a compression driver.
I found one chap posting that he was running 6 neo8 drivers / side without a crossover, and he shows an FR plot of a similar array as having good response from 200Hz - which is pretty sweet.
Look Ma .... No Crossover - Satie - Planar Speaker Asylum
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The spec sheet looks good. It does have a more open-looking frame than the SN4-60F, but a similarly sized ferrite magnet (it looks smaller because it is driving a slightly bigger cone). The Alpair-10P spec sheet is good, with very nice (smooth & closely spaced) off-axis plots. However, I see 3rd party testing that show distortion issues and much wilder FR, which makes me wary.
Mark Audio Alpair 10P-A Fullrange Loudspeaker Measurements Data and Information Full Range
P.Audio SN4-60F (4" fullrange):
64cm of cone area and 78.5cm of magnet area
...about 3:4 - magnet completely overshadows the cone
Markaudio 10.3 (6" fullrange)
88cm of cone area and 78.5cm (estimated) of magnet area
...roughly 1:1 - better
Scanspeak 10F drivers (3" fullrange):
36cm of cone area and 26.5cm of magnet area
...about 3:2 - best
The Scanspeak 10F is about as good as conventional drivers get, in terms of 'open frame', with it's relatively low reflection basket & small magnet.
It also has a lot of 3rd party measurements that show low distortion and otherwise closely match the manufacturer's specifications. I like it when that happens.
I note that Zaph tested a pair of 10F and is emphatic about chamfering the driver cutout. Ditto Troels. This seems to be a widely accepted bit of engineering. Basically what I'm after is a driver where the magnet is similarly chamfered
The main strike against the 10F is the ~4dB lower sensitivity.
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I haven't 100% given up on this idea, but have been on other projects + waiting almost 6 months for drivers (Scanspeak 15M) to arrive.
For giggles, I ordered this cheap "replacement" driver:
http://www.fs-audio.com/oa_net/fs-audio_com_12671630197.pdf
By the spec sheet, it doesn't look any more advanced / better than the P.Audio SN4-60F (4" fullrange) I have, but:
a) it was on special
b) is 5dB hotter than the 4"
c) I'm curious to see what the quality is, since the supplier is one of not many ~local companies (VFM audio)
For giggles, I ordered this cheap "replacement" driver:
http://www.fs-audio.com/oa_net/fs-audio_com_12671630197.pdf
By the spec sheet, it doesn't look any more advanced / better than the P.Audio SN4-60F (4" fullrange) I have, but:
a) it was on special
b) is 5dB hotter than the 4"
c) I'm curious to see what the quality is, since the supplier is one of not many ~local companies (VFM audio)
It is good. It looks like they very closely copied the Audax PR170M0 madisound link to PR170M0
The MD-630 spec sheet seems about right, except I measure a higher Qts.
Crude measurements attached: mic at ~5 and ~100cm on a box with a ~40cm wide (cardboard) test baffle.
The PR170M0 goes into breakup, with a 5dB peak, at 3kHz.
The MD-630 goes into breakup, without the rise, at 4kHz.
Some would consider that an improvement.
The MD-630 is cheap enough to fool around with (add a whizzer, stiffen the cone, etc).
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Bump!
I'm dusting this idea down again. I have a surplus of battered old PA cabinets, so am gutting two of them to use as horn shells. I'm thinking of using these in a speaker stack: the bass boxes will vent into these horn shells, and thereby use the air volume behind the horns.
...so again, I'm keen to know if there's a better wideband driver I could use. The P Audio drivers are robust and sound pretty nice 300Hz - 12kHz, but I'd like to try for more and smoother HF, as well as a less bulky frame & magnet.
The little Scan Speak units still seem good - better materials (neo magnet etc) and higher quality / reliability than my current favourite. On paper, the Scan Speak it is slightly less efficient, but I note that it has better (rising) HF, so after applying subtractive eq, the final efficiency will actually be higher.
The Peerless NE series look good too, with nice streamlining on the frame & magnet, like the Scan Speak. The little NE65W-04-ND would be a good fit for a 2" horn, and the HF looks remarkably good.
From the same range, the published FR plot NE95 matches well with what I see here (post 368), which gives me some confidence in the manufacturer's info.
Aino gradient - a collaborative speaker project
I'm dusting this idea down again. I have a surplus of battered old PA cabinets, so am gutting two of them to use as horn shells. I'm thinking of using these in a speaker stack: the bass boxes will vent into these horn shells, and thereby use the air volume behind the horns.
...so again, I'm keen to know if there's a better wideband driver I could use. The P Audio drivers are robust and sound pretty nice 300Hz - 12kHz, but I'd like to try for more and smoother HF, as well as a less bulky frame & magnet.
The little Scan Speak units still seem good - better materials (neo magnet etc) and higher quality / reliability than my current favourite. On paper, the Scan Speak it is slightly less efficient, but I note that it has better (rising) HF, so after applying subtractive eq, the final efficiency will actually be higher.
The Peerless NE series look good too, with nice streamlining on the frame & magnet, like the Scan Speak. The little NE65W-04-ND would be a good fit for a 2" horn, and the HF looks remarkably good.
From the same range, the published FR plot NE95 matches well with what I see here (post 368), which gives me some confidence in the manufacturer's info.
Aino gradient - a collaborative speaker project
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