As some of You already know, I have enjoyed my experimental "cheap and cheerful" 16 driver NSB arrays for some time. Now that I have taken them as far as I can, I am ready to take the next step.
I have been greatly inspired by Wesayso's build:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...o-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array.html
And many of the builds on:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/203356-cloning-ids-25s.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/193015-stupid-cheap-line-array.html
This is going to be a little different thread in the sense that I do not desire to build an array on the cheap, as I have done that already. I am already sold on the concept, so I am looking to take the concept farther.
Bear in mind, this is going to be a true array, using 3"-4" full-range drivers; atleast 75" tall, preferably floor to ceiling.
These are the driver choices I have in mind:
Right now, I am lending towards the Fostex FF85wk for the array down to 80 Hz, then bringing in a sub-woofer. This will be the most challenging baffle to build due to the stamped basket and the weird bezel shape. I am hoping find someone with a CNC to cut the baffle and cover plate for this array.
My second choice would be the Celeston AN3510, as I really like the driver design for line array applications. This would also need a sub-woofer at 80 Hz. I have not found any listening impressions on this driver.
Crazy expensive, would be the Alpair 7, but I could run that full-range with no sub. I would need to cut the bezels down to get closer spacing
, Mistakes would be quite costly.
The Foundex FE88EX/89EX can be run full-range, but listening impressions have lead me to believe that this unit has a rougher high compared to the Fostex and Alpair options.
It seems the compromise is if You want low bass, You must sacrifice the highs a little. If You want the highs, You will not have the low of the lows.
I am considering a driver blow-out with some of these. I am looking for an exceptional response between 1 kHz and 6 kHz, without nasty break-ups and resonances. (The demise to my NSB arrays was a nasty around 1.2 kHz I could not resolve.) Smooth highs is a plus. A smooth bezel is a plus. A driver that can render a good 3D soundstage is a huge plus. Solid Bass down to at least 80 Hz (remember, these are going to be arrayed, so I am guessing many of the drivers above can achieve that).
Thoughts anyone?
I have been greatly inspired by Wesayso's build:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...o-towers-25-driver-full-range-line-array.html
And many of the builds on:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/203356-cloning-ids-25s.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/193015-stupid-cheap-line-array.html
This is going to be a little different thread in the sense that I do not desire to build an array on the cheap, as I have done that already. I am already sold on the concept, so I am looking to take the concept farther.
Bear in mind, this is going to be a true array, using 3"-4" full-range drivers; atleast 75" tall, preferably floor to ceiling.
These are the driver choices I have in mind:
Right now, I am lending towards the Fostex FF85wk for the array down to 80 Hz, then bringing in a sub-woofer. This will be the most challenging baffle to build due to the stamped basket and the weird bezel shape. I am hoping find someone with a CNC to cut the baffle and cover plate for this array.
My second choice would be the Celeston AN3510, as I really like the driver design for line array applications. This would also need a sub-woofer at 80 Hz. I have not found any listening impressions on this driver.
Crazy expensive, would be the Alpair 7, but I could run that full-range with no sub. I would need to cut the bezels down to get closer spacing
, Mistakes would be quite costly.The Foundex FE88EX/89EX can be run full-range, but listening impressions have lead me to believe that this unit has a rougher high compared to the Fostex and Alpair options.
It seems the compromise is if You want low bass, You must sacrifice the highs a little. If You want the highs, You will not have the low of the lows.
I am considering a driver blow-out with some of these. I am looking for an exceptional response between 1 kHz and 6 kHz, without nasty break-ups and resonances. (The demise to my NSB arrays was a nasty around 1.2 kHz I could not resolve.) Smooth highs is a plus. A smooth bezel is a plus. A driver that can render a good 3D soundstage is a huge plus. Solid Bass down to at least 80 Hz (remember, these are going to be arrayed, so I am guessing many of the drivers above can achieve that).
Thoughts anyone?
Don't know about the Celestion but FF85Wk has very little xmax. A7.3 has a funky dip at 1.5 kHz and huge resonant peaks at 10kHz and 13kHz and has the biggest fat bezel that won't let you get tight center to center spacing. I think the TC9FD or TG9FD iare great choices as Wesayso and the IDS-25 had proven. If you want to beat those drivers go with the Scan Speak 10F/8414 or 10F/8424. Same family but better performance with great CSD and smooth response and 2.5 mm xmax, not 0.75mm xmax.
Let's not forget the very well built and cost effective RS100-4. Great fit and finish and nice solid cast alloy frame with smooth response and class leading 4mm xmax.
Let's not forget the very well built and cost effective RS100-4. Great fit and finish and nice solid cast alloy frame with smooth response and class leading 4mm xmax.
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Well class leading would have to go to the Audience A3 driver with 12 mm. But strangely enough the distortion plots of the TC9 are cleaner than the Audience when driven harder (95 dB). But with 25 of them (or more) it would probably be a minor difference.
I do wonder about the off axis response of the 10F. The TC9 does have more similarities in on axis/off axis behaviour than the 10F.
Anyone have an off axis plot of the RS100-8? The CSD of that one seems cleaner than the RS100-4 judging from Zaph Audio:
(The peak obviously needs some attention)
I'd also look into BMR's like the ones used by Overkill Audio:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/191853-near-full-range-bmr-balanced-mode-radiator-12.html#post3449827
Nice CSD and usually those kind of drivers have excellent off axis response, though frequency response often needs help. He's had a few people over and impressed most of them (if not all) and most seem convinced enough to try the BMR's for themselves after a visit.
I do wonder about the off axis response of the 10F. The TC9 does have more similarities in on axis/off axis behaviour than the 10F.
Anyone have an off axis plot of the RS100-8? The CSD of that one seems cleaner than the RS100-4 judging from Zaph Audio:
(The peak obviously needs some attention)
I'd also look into BMR's like the ones used by Overkill Audio:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/191853-near-full-range-bmr-balanced-mode-radiator-12.html#post3449827
Nice CSD and usually those kind of drivers have excellent off axis response, though frequency response often needs help. He's had a few people over and impressed most of them (if not all) and most seem convinced enough to try the BMR's for themselves after a visit.
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The price on that 2010 test is € 170,- a piece .
You should be able to order more than 2, they used to do this:
The picture above only shows half the story, as they would have even more drivers on the 2 back planes:
(that's 96 drivers for a stereo set)
.You should be able to order more than 2, they used to do this:
The picture above only shows half the story, as they would have even more drivers on the 2 back planes:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
(that's 96 drivers for a stereo set
)
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With 25 of them, who cares? It would be my choice. 80 Hz is at the ragged edge of how low you'd like to take them.
If you rear mount them on an aluminum baffle, no issuses with rebates (we dooften use them without the rebate. But if you are going to CNC them a rebate is not an issue (CNC is a good idea for the baffle)
C-C with A7 is probably too large. The Audience A3 is nolonger available to diyers.
dave
Significantly. And remember Xmax is all but meaningless since there are multiple different definitions of what it actually is (no industry standard), all of which give different numbers if applied to the same driver, and have little practical value in any event.
In re centre-to-centre spacing, one additional point to keep in mind is that it too is an approximation. It is not the case that all wideband drivers produce the majority of their HF output from the centre only; many do, but some have a surprising amount of HF energy emitted from the periphery of the substrate also.
As for the FF85wk, if you're cutting below ~80Hz & there's 25 of them, the majority of people should find they've got plenty in hand. Data from Klang+Ton 01 / 2012 attached. Note citation; this falls under 'fair use'.
In re centre-to-centre spacing, one additional point to keep in mind is that it too is an approximation. It is not the case that all wideband drivers produce the majority of their HF output from the centre only; many do, but some have a surprising amount of HF energy emitted from the periphery of the substrate also.
As for the FF85wk, if you're cutting below ~80Hz & there's 25 of them, the majority of people should find they've got plenty in hand. Data from Klang+Ton 01 / 2012 attached. Note citation; this falls under 'fair use'.
Attachments
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How about 32 of these per side?
http://www.daytonaudio.com/media/resources/290-204-dayton-audio-nd65-4-specifications-46831.pdf
http://www.daytonaudio.com/media/resources/290-204-dayton-audio-nd65-4-specifications-46831.pdf
SOTA line array
Hi AA,
I look forward to following your journey, I am also happily cruising along this highway to audio heaven....Big arrays rock!
If you check out my BMR postings you will get a good idea of my views and experiences and hopefully some of it will be useful, regardless of which drivers you choose.
Are you looking for a complete full range system ie no subs?
If you are you are going to need a lot of Sd and also good Eq.
Currently there is no single driver on Earth that can slam 110dB with control at 20Hz and simultaneously produce 110dB at 15KHz with everything else in between remaining in control....
Without subs you will need a min Sd of around 2,200 square cm (equal to approx two or three 15 inch drivers) per side....Not easy to achieve with average domestic ceiling heights.
With good subs (80Hz crossover?) you can half this or even less, maybe around one 15 inch driver Sd per side.
You will still need good Eq.
I dont worry about Xmax very much....just use more drivers!
Centre to centre spacing is important but not the deal breaker many believe it is.... The whole comb filtering issue is only a problem when one chooses the wrong drivers.
Real in room response is dominated by power response, not on axis frequency response....!!!!
This fact is disputed by most guys on this forum, only because they have never heard a driver with a really broad and even power response used in a full length array and mounted correctly ie on or in wall.
Hope some of this helps and good luck!
Cheers
Derek.
Hi AA,
I look forward to following your journey, I am also happily cruising along this highway to audio heaven....Big arrays rock!
If you check out my BMR postings you will get a good idea of my views and experiences and hopefully some of it will be useful, regardless of which drivers you choose.
Are you looking for a complete full range system ie no subs?
If you are you are going to need a lot of Sd and also good Eq.
Currently there is no single driver on Earth that can slam 110dB with control at 20Hz and simultaneously produce 110dB at 15KHz with everything else in between remaining in control....
Without subs you will need a min Sd of around 2,200 square cm (equal to approx two or three 15 inch drivers) per side....Not easy to achieve with average domestic ceiling heights.
With good subs (80Hz crossover?) you can half this or even less, maybe around one 15 inch driver Sd per side.
You will still need good Eq.
I dont worry about Xmax very much....just use more drivers!
Centre to centre spacing is important but not the deal breaker many believe it is.... The whole comb filtering issue is only a problem when one chooses the wrong drivers.
Real in room response is dominated by power response, not on axis frequency response....!!!!
This fact is disputed by most guys on this forum, only because they have never heard a driver with a really broad and even power response used in a full length array and mounted correctly ie on or in wall.
Hope some of this helps and good luck!
Cheers
Derek.
Ceiling Height...
Wow, thanks for all the input everyone, I have some research to do, but that is a good thing.
My ceiling height is 106" or 269 cm. Ideally, I would like to get as close to this height as I can, as long as I can series/parallel wire the drivers for an impedance between 4 and 8 ohms. 25, 30, 32, and 36 drivers/cabinet seems to work out in most cases with 8 ohm drivers.
I actually could fit 32 of the FF85wk's and come in at 102 1/2" and have a 4 ohm load. that "fair use" CSD looks really good. I think I am cutting it close or "ragged" with the 80 Hz. I think I would be fine with music, not sure with bass intensive movies. With 32 drivers, I would have 100 dB capacity with the 85 dB distortion shown on Klang+Ton 01's data.
Parts-Express used to carry that A3 driver, I believe for $160 each. $160 times 64 equals $10240. If I had that, I could pay off my mortgage and be true home owner completely debt free! It does not hurt to dream! Maybe could pull it off over the course of five years in batches of 13! but, as Dave mentioned, the A3 is no longer available for us diyers. B & G did the same thing! 
those BMR seem interesting if one can source them. I found this one at parts-express. Do not like that dip at 1.9 kHz - right in the middle of our critical "ambient" range:
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/297-2156--hibm65c20f-8-data-sheet.pdf
This one has more promise: I do not think it would go down to 80 Hz though... But for that price, maybe a second woofer array crossed in at 150 Hz, a Full-range Assisted Array System? FAAst CSD anyone?
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/297-2157--temb46c20n-4b-2-spec-sheet.pdf
Also, these BMR drivers tote their 100 degree off axis response, where are the charts? Come on, Tectonic, walk the talk!
The NS2-326-8TA Aura, Dave? I could fit 50/channel of those and have a 4 ohm load or 49/channel and have an 8 ohm load. Again, I am thinking a 150 Hz low point with these. But a very agreeable design for cabinet construction, and I would guess that this would have an awesome off-axis dispersion pattern. If I recall, this is the driver in Seigfried Linkwitz's Pluto system. I will see if I can google a CSD and off-axis info on this...
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/296-252_AuraSound_NSW2-326-8A_Specifications.pdf
Dave, I would be interested in your subjective listening options on the Aura verses the Fostex, esp in regards to the mid-range, smooth highs, dispersion, 3D soundstage and integration with bass systems. Links to other threads are fine too, if You do not want to type all of that.
I have not eliminated the Dayton Scan Speak or Vifa options either as these would be true full-range arrays. I am disappointed the Dayton does not have a truncated frame. The Dayton and Scan Speak therefore would require me cutting the bezels to made them truncated. Doable, but Also, in the end, I plan on building two pairs of arrays. The better of the two, will be my front channels, and the others will be my surrounds.
A few other observations I will include now, when playing with my Cheap and Cheerful Arrays:
80 Hz is the "magic" number for bass. What I mean by that, is if I can get the bass of the array down to 80 Hz, I can integrate a pair of subs in and still enjoy line source bass that is felt. In other words, the "heard" bass is what is important in regards to line source behavior. In fact, the two Dayton subs I am building for my brother integrates the best with the arrays over any other system I have tried them with. Now I am not opposed to building an array of bass drivers to integrate with a main array that needs a higher cross-over point. I think the felt sensation would be superior in fact. I could see uisng a bunch of Alpair 12 mid-basses for this, although there maybe more cost effective options
So the priority seems to be more on the smoothest and most impulsive mid to highs with superior off-axis response.
It is time for me to go to bed! Thanks again for all your responses. I look forward to waking up this evening and reading your responses. Tonight is my night off, so Hurray, I get to play! This is one of the blessings working a night shift job. On night's off, there are no phone calls, no outdoor work to do, no commotion. I actually get to creatively relax, which is a whole new experience for me, and I feel no guilt about it either, because as some of You know, when I work, I am pulling 10 - 15 hour long shifts between a career, part-time job and a care giving business (which I am trying to "give" to someone else who needs the blessing of work). The other blessing is I can play with my audio as LOUD as I when and bother no one, as my closest neighbor is a couple lots down across the street and my walls are well insulated.
One last thing - I noticed that Aura driver is on sale at PE, does anyone know for how long? At a $5 reduction, that is $500 saved for me with 100 units!
Wow, thanks for all the input everyone, I have some research to do, but that is a good thing.
My ceiling height is 106" or 269 cm. Ideally, I would like to get as close to this height as I can, as long as I can series/parallel wire the drivers for an impedance between 4 and 8 ohms. 25, 30, 32, and 36 drivers/cabinet seems to work out in most cases with 8 ohm drivers.
I actually could fit 32 of the FF85wk's and come in at 102 1/2" and have a 4 ohm load. that "fair use" CSD looks really good. I think I am cutting it close or "ragged" with the 80 Hz. I think I would be fine with music, not sure with bass intensive movies. With 32 drivers, I would have 100 dB capacity with the 85 dB distortion shown on Klang+Ton 01's data.
Parts-Express used to carry that A3 driver, I believe for $160 each. $160 times 64 equals $10240.
If I had that, I could pay off my mortgage and be true home owner completely debt free! It does not hurt to dream! Maybe could pull it off over the course of five years in batches of 13! but, as Dave mentioned, the A3 is no longer available for us diyers. B & G did the same thing! those BMR seem interesting if one can source them. I found this one at parts-express. Do not like that dip at 1.9 kHz - right in the middle of our critical "ambient" range:
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/297-2156--hibm65c20f-8-data-sheet.pdf
This one has more promise: I do not think it would go down to 80 Hz though... But for that price, maybe a second woofer array crossed in at 150 Hz, a Full-range Assisted Array System? FAAst
CSD anyone? http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/297-2157--temb46c20n-4b-2-spec-sheet.pdf
Also, these BMR drivers tote their 100 degree off axis response, where are the charts? Come on, Tectonic, walk the talk!
The NS2-326-8TA Aura, Dave? I could fit 50/channel of those and have a 4 ohm load or 49/channel and have an 8 ohm load. Again, I am thinking a 150 Hz low point with these. But a very agreeable design for cabinet construction, and I would guess that this would have an awesome off-axis dispersion pattern. If I recall, this is the driver in Seigfried Linkwitz's Pluto system. I will see if I can google a CSD and off-axis info on this...
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/296-252_AuraSound_NSW2-326-8A_Specifications.pdf
Dave, I would be interested in your subjective listening options on the Aura verses the Fostex, esp in regards to the mid-range, smooth highs, dispersion, 3D soundstage and integration with bass systems. Links to other threads are fine too, if You do not want to type all of that.
I have not eliminated the Dayton Scan Speak or Vifa options either as these would be true full-range arrays. I am disappointed the Dayton does not have a truncated frame. The Dayton and Scan Speak therefore would require me cutting the bezels to made them truncated. Doable, but
Also, in the end, I plan on building two pairs of arrays. The better of the two, will be my front channels, and the others will be my surrounds. A few other observations I will include now, when playing with my Cheap and Cheerful Arrays:
80 Hz is the "magic" number for bass. What I mean by that, is if I can get the bass of the array down to 80 Hz, I can integrate a pair of subs in and still enjoy line source bass that is felt. In other words, the "heard" bass is what is important in regards to line source behavior. In fact, the two Dayton subs I am building for my brother integrates the best with the arrays over any other system I have tried them with. Now I am not opposed to building an array of bass drivers to integrate with a main array that needs a higher cross-over point. I think the felt sensation would be superior in fact. I could see uisng a bunch of Alpair 12 mid-basses for this
, although there maybe more cost effective optionsSo the priority seems to be more on the smoothest and most impulsive mid to highs with superior off-axis response.
It is time for me to go to bed! Thanks again for all your responses. I look forward to waking up this evening and reading your responses. Tonight is my night off, so Hurray, I get to play! This is one of the blessings working a night shift job. On night's off, there are no phone calls, no outdoor work to do, no commotion. I actually get to creatively relax, which is a whole new experience for me, and I feel no guilt about it either, because as some of You know, when I work, I am pulling 10 - 15 hour long shifts between a career, part-time job and a care giving business (which I am trying to "give" to someone else who needs the blessing of work). The other blessing is I can play with my audio as LOUD as I when and bother no one, as my closest neighbor is a couple lots down across the street and my walls are well insulated.
One last thing - I noticed that Aura driver is on sale at PE, does anyone know for how long? At a $5 reduction, that is $500 saved for me with 100 units!
Thanks for joining in Derek,
I think You are right on with Your assessment. With a full-range array, something is going to be compromised: either the extended highs or the felt lows. I have had better luck integrating a sub or two then adding a tweeter or super-tweeter. I think the physics of driver spacing between arrays at cross-over frequencies above 3000 Hz becomes an almost physically impossible challenge. Have You seen the huge bezels on these dome and planar tweeters these days? You would think they would know better!
Actually, I am starting to get curious of what a bass array would be like with some of the smaller driver options I mentioned in the post above. Like I say, point source subs do integrate well with line sources playing down to 80 Hz, yet, I am thinking a line source sub would provide less of "poking" sensation and more of a "whole body massage" sensation, maybe even something the woman folk would enjoy.
As I have mentioned on other threads, my daughter, Mum and other woman I know who have heard the different systems I have, prefer the arrays over the point source systems. And they do not mind the arrays at Louder levels either. Just an odd observation I have had.
Anyway, I will be reading your thread, as I am interested in the BMR options. What BMR's did You source? And what kind of quantities are we looking at here. If there is enough interest, maybe we could coordinate a group buy of some kind?...
This is turning out to be pretty interesting. We are exploring some options I was not aware of. Glad to have You all on the journey!
Allen
(It is past my bedtime! - that means I am excited! Good thing I am off tonight!)
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My system...
Just to let You know the system I currently have.
I use a PC for all my audio and video. Thanks to Wesayso, I use a real gem of a program called JRiver for my playback. The DSP engine and convolution capacities of this software are more then adequate for the EQ requirements of this system.
Currently, I am using an M-Audio DAC, which I finally got to work really well running WASAPI, thanks again to JRiver. This is a two channel DAC. I can run 8 channels with the on-board Realtek Audio, with inferior high frequency response. It is fun to play around with multi-channel sound for movies with this DAC though. I have a Twisted Pair Buffalo III DAC kit which I have not built yet. I have not decided if I wanted to go four channel, six or eight channel. A lot of that will depend on this system. I will need to buy the additional I/V stages for the additional channels. There are the glassware kits for that also, if I want to venture tuuuuuube.
For power, I am using Peter Daniel's LM3875 chip amps. I had no problems running my current NSB arrays with these. I found they feel short running my Aveburys though. I also have an SAE 2100 in the box, waiting to be shipped off to Ken Ealey for a full restoration. This actually would work well for the bass array. I also have a few 40 watt class-D amps laying around for experiments, will be selling those soon. Eventually, I would like to get some Hypex N-cores for amps. Although I have considered the bridged LM4875 also. Not as interested in amp design or surface mount soldering. I prefer wood working and building speakers. Speakers always seems to be the main limiting factor in a system. So basically, I am looking to design the system for the speakers.
I have owned Bose, JBL, Meadowlark (Speak Scan), and B&W speakers. Funny thinking about it now, as none of them come close, as what I was really looking for all long could only be attained through a line source!
I had a McIntosh Tube C-22 pre-amp and MC-150 Solid State power amp. Sometimes I still wish I had that system, but I sold it for the down payment for the house I enjoy so much now, so it was worth it. That pre-amp would not work for the digital based system I am building now anyway.
My last point source build was the Avebury. Awesome system if You like true single driver full-range point sources. You can read all about them on this thread, staring at post 79:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/104879-mikasa-next-8.html
I have a lot of sanding to do on the solid oak and maple mosaic fronts. I am actually on a quest to find these speakers a nice home. So if You know of anybody that would enjoy a system like this, let me know, as I can customize the rest of the wood working to their decor. Ran full-range, they are right at home with intimate music and about 60 watts of power, possibly tube based. With a sub-woofer at 80 Hz, they can do anything You want them to, including Home Theatre.
I think I covered it all, plus some...
Now (I am telling myself this, and those of You that know me, I have a problem with bedtimes) for me... Bed Time!
Good Night (for those of You in my hemisphere, it is Good Day!)
Just to let You know the system I currently have.
I use a PC for all my audio and video. Thanks to Wesayso, I use a real gem of a program called JRiver for my playback. The DSP engine and convolution capacities of this software are more then adequate for the EQ requirements of this system.
Currently, I am using an M-Audio DAC, which I finally got to work really well running WASAPI, thanks again to JRiver. This is a two channel DAC. I can run 8 channels with the on-board Realtek Audio, with inferior high frequency response. It is fun to play around with multi-channel sound for movies with this DAC though. I have a Twisted Pair Buffalo III DAC kit which I have not built yet. I have not decided if I wanted to go four channel, six or eight channel. A lot of that will depend on this system. I will need to buy the additional I/V stages for the additional channels. There are the glassware kits for that also, if I want to venture tuuuuuube.
For power, I am using Peter Daniel's LM3875 chip amps. I had no problems running my current NSB arrays with these. I found they feel short running my Aveburys though. I also have an SAE 2100 in the box, waiting to be shipped off to Ken Ealey for a full restoration. This actually would work well for the bass array. I also have a few 40 watt class-D amps laying around for experiments, will be selling those soon. Eventually, I would like to get some Hypex N-cores for amps. Although I have considered the bridged LM4875 also. Not as interested in amp design or surface mount soldering. I prefer wood working and building speakers. Speakers always seems to be the main limiting factor in a system. So basically, I am looking to design the system for the speakers.
I have owned Bose, JBL, Meadowlark (Speak Scan), and B&W speakers. Funny thinking about it now, as none of them come close, as what I was really looking for all long could only be attained through a line source!
I had a McIntosh Tube C-22 pre-amp and MC-150 Solid State power amp. Sometimes I still wish I had that system, but I sold it for the down payment for the house I enjoy so much now, so it was worth it. That pre-amp would not work for the digital based system I am building now anyway.
My last point source build was the Avebury. Awesome system if You like true single driver full-range point sources. You can read all about them on this thread, staring at post 79:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/104879-mikasa-next-8.html
I have a lot of sanding to do on the solid oak and maple mosaic fronts. I am actually on a quest to find these speakers a nice home. So if You know of anybody that would enjoy a system like this, let me know, as I can customize the rest of the wood working to their decor. Ran full-range, they are right at home with intimate music and about 60 watts of power, possibly tube based. With a sub-woofer at 80 Hz, they can do anything You want them to, including Home Theatre.
I think I covered it all, plus some...
Now (I am telling myself this, and those of You that know me, I have a problem with bedtimes) for me... Bed Time!
Good Night (for those of You in my hemisphere, it is Good Day!)
I've only heard the 3". A really good driver in its price class (at least when they were $12.50), but not near up to the FF85.
Ref earlier inquiry. FF85 Xmec is quite a bit larger than its Xmax.
dave
Bass array plus main line array
Hi Allen,
All sounds good, you have a good grasp of what you want to achieve and a great listening panel to judge your efforts....Young women have much better ears and make a much better job of voicing a system than most middle aged audio geeks like me!
Your high ceilings will be a great advantage with building a SOTA line array, esp if you decide to add on a couple of bass arrays.
I have a couple of designs sketched up (not CAD, just hand drawn) which combine bass arrays with line arrays of full range drivers.
I use my own 4.5 inch (112mm square chassis with 70.88 Sd) silk surround BMR but you could tweak the cabinets to use any driver under 5 inches diameter.
The bass is handled by either 10 inch or 12 inch Pro drivers with TS / motor and suspensions designed for very small sealed box volumes. The loading is vital, I believe that a Q of 0.707 is vital to achieve the best results.
The "price to pay" for small sealed Vb plus perfect transients (0.707 Q) is of course inefficiency....But with killer class D (N Core is a great choice) amps available at affordable DIY prices all you need to do is ensure your drivers have massive power handling so you can Eq them to perfection without overheating the voice coils...Thermal distortion is a huge issue and almost always ignored by most domestic loudspeaker designers.
Of course bass arrays have a huge advantage....multiple Pro bass drivers with 3 inch or 4 inch voice coils can handle all the power you will ever need, and NCore can drive 3 Ohm to 4 Ohm impedance loads all day and all night....
The cabinets are all very slim, (5 inches to 8 inches deep) designed for on wall or in wall mounting as you benefit from boundary reinforcement plus avoid rear wall reflections and baffle step problems.
Cabinet width varies depending on whether the bass arrays are joined or separate from the main arrays and the height varies with the number of drivers used.
Generally better to design the cabinets in two halves or three thirds as this makes shipping / handling / installation much easier and also allows you to have a wide range of designs ie modular so you can start with a small system and simply add on modules to expand as required.
Last point on driver size....The tiny Sd of the Parts express BMR's is a serious limiting factor...ie with your 2,690mm ceiling height you could have:
32 of the small (75mm / 19.6 Sd) BMR's = 2,400mm tall which = 627 Sd or just over a single 12 inch driver.
24 of the medium ( 108mm / 37.2 Sd) BMR = 2592mm tall which = 892 Sd or a single 15 inch driver.
I use 16 of my 112mm square chassis BMR with Sd of 70.88 per driver = 1,134 Sd.....24 per side would just squeeze in (2,688mm tall) to give you 1,680 Sd per side....Equal to twin 15 inch drivers per side.....Yea baby!
The golden rule is that each time you double the SD you half the cone movement, so you half the distortion, both frequency and time domain, this is mega.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
Hi Allen,
All sounds good, you have a good grasp of what you want to achieve and a great listening panel to judge your efforts....Young women have much better ears and make a much better job of voicing a system than most middle aged audio geeks like me!
Your high ceilings will be a great advantage with building a SOTA line array, esp if you decide to add on a couple of bass arrays.
I have a couple of designs sketched up (not CAD, just hand drawn) which combine bass arrays with line arrays of full range drivers.
I use my own 4.5 inch (112mm square chassis with 70.88 Sd) silk surround BMR but you could tweak the cabinets to use any driver under 5 inches diameter.
The bass is handled by either 10 inch or 12 inch Pro drivers with TS / motor and suspensions designed for very small sealed box volumes. The loading is vital, I believe that a Q of 0.707 is vital to achieve the best results.
The "price to pay" for small sealed Vb plus perfect transients (0.707 Q) is of course inefficiency....But with killer class D (N Core is a great choice) amps available at affordable DIY prices all you need to do is ensure your drivers have massive power handling so you can Eq them to perfection without overheating the voice coils...Thermal distortion is a huge issue and almost always ignored by most domestic loudspeaker designers.
Of course bass arrays have a huge advantage....multiple Pro bass drivers with 3 inch or 4 inch voice coils can handle all the power you will ever need, and NCore can drive 3 Ohm to 4 Ohm impedance loads all day and all night....
The cabinets are all very slim, (5 inches to 8 inches deep) designed for on wall or in wall mounting as you benefit from boundary reinforcement plus avoid rear wall reflections and baffle step problems.
Cabinet width varies depending on whether the bass arrays are joined or separate from the main arrays and the height varies with the number of drivers used.
Generally better to design the cabinets in two halves or three thirds as this makes shipping / handling / installation much easier and also allows you to have a wide range of designs ie modular so you can start with a small system and simply add on modules to expand as required.
Last point on driver size....The tiny Sd of the Parts express BMR's is a serious limiting factor...ie with your 2,690mm ceiling height you could have:
32 of the small (75mm / 19.6 Sd) BMR's = 2,400mm tall which = 627 Sd or just over a single 12 inch driver.
24 of the medium ( 108mm / 37.2 Sd) BMR = 2592mm tall which = 892 Sd or a single 15 inch driver.
I use 16 of my 112mm square chassis BMR with Sd of 70.88 per driver = 1,134 Sd.....24 per side would just squeeze in (2,688mm tall) to give you 1,680 Sd per side....Equal to twin 15 inch drivers per side.....Yea baby!
The golden rule is that each time you double the SD you half the cone movement, so you half the distortion, both frequency and time domain, this is mega.
Hope this helps and all the best
Derek.
A minor query Derek -I've seen you mention that a Qtc of 0.707 has 'perfect transients' on several occasions, but the last I checked, 0.707 is actually a maximally flat Butterworth alignment, which is not transient perfect. Transient perfect sealed (inasmuch as anything can be) would be 0.5, since it is in effect critically damped / has the minimal overshoot in the step response. Anything higher has a longer settling / decay time ( = poorer transient response) while < 0.5 is just as problematic in its own way since it's overdamped and thus not tracking the signal accurately. Am I missing something?
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