I have congregated systems that have heretofore existed in storage, my home space, and office space. Well, and automobile space and head phone space.
There are source CD's and Flac's that sound great on multi-driver systems and headphones that sound dreadful in a larger space with full range systems.
Why do some recordings that sound fine on multi-driver systems or head phones sound like they are coming out of a tin-can on a full range system?
I get the MP3 problem of compressed source. MP3's sound fine in the car or on headphones. They are lacking sound stage on a good multi-drive system, and they are un-listenable on a full range system. But CD's or Flac's that sound fine with headphones or multi-drive systems that lack a sound stage and that seem hollow and compressed on a full range system don't make sense.
I have read about full rangers "revealing" poor sources. But what exactly are they revealing?
Are there any remedies?
I have been flirting with the idea of getting ahead of the source with a DSP. Can I intervene and rehab these failed sources for a full range system with a DSP?
There are source CD's and Flac's that sound great on multi-driver systems and headphones that sound dreadful in a larger space with full range systems.
Why do some recordings that sound fine on multi-driver systems or head phones sound like they are coming out of a tin-can on a full range system?
I get the MP3 problem of compressed source. MP3's sound fine in the car or on headphones. They are lacking sound stage on a good multi-drive system, and they are un-listenable on a full range system. But CD's or Flac's that sound fine with headphones or multi-drive systems that lack a sound stage and that seem hollow and compressed on a full range system don't make sense.
I have read about full rangers "revealing" poor sources. But what exactly are they revealing?
Are there any remedies?
I have been flirting with the idea of getting ahead of the source with a DSP. Can I intervene and rehab these failed sources for a full range system with a DSP?
Think many good stuff said here regarding speakers please read #138 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/270634-first-fullrange-suggestions-14.html#post4248570.
So many compromise in force regarding speakers where amps have for many years could deliver audio band without time and frequency distortion and to do it many have bandwidth from DC to >500kHz to not turn phase inside audio band and thereby timing. Even a simple fullranger or headphone is a band pass device which probably mean 360º phase turn inside audio band and this is a heavy distortion on timing compared to a amp.
My experience is you would observe when you have a good speaker in that no matter genre or track even bit rate they all sound good and you can listen 24/7 without fatigue. Speakers that raise a track or genre quality to even higher levels that heard before have probably build in coloring/distortion parameters and fall apart in the long run.
DSP can really help if a driver have not too many distortion parameters out of box, and in future will probably be added all over.
So many compromise in force regarding speakers where amps have for many years could deliver audio band without time and frequency distortion and to do it many have bandwidth from DC to >500kHz to not turn phase inside audio band and thereby timing. Even a simple fullranger or headphone is a band pass device which probably mean 360º phase turn inside audio band and this is a heavy distortion on timing compared to a amp.
My experience is you would observe when you have a good speaker in that no matter genre or track even bit rate they all sound good and you can listen 24/7 without fatigue. Speakers that raise a track or genre quality to even higher levels that heard before have probably build in coloring/distortion parameters and fall apart in the long run.
DSP can really help if a driver have not too many distortion parameters out of box, and in future will probably be added all over.
It is a mix. I have LP's and CD's that I reduced to MP3's and ALAC using iTunes. I am very disappointed in those. Happily, I still have vinyl/plastic and can set aside some time and re-record them to FLAC's. But like your tunes for the iPhone, I have quite a lot of purchased MP3's that I have downloaded over the past 20 years. About ten years ago I found a site, MP3Panda, with good selection, DRM-Free/320kbps, and a tenth the cost of Amazon. But truly, they are pretty rough on anything but automobile or headphone listening. I have been going back and purchasing the CD's of the music I like the most.
So, there is a lot of the downloaded stuff that I need to rehabilitate. I think it is mixed "hot" to sound bright on poor systems. I recently drove to meetings using a State vehicle and noticed it had a 3.5mm jack in the radio. At the first gas stop I purchased a Monster Cable 3.5/3.5 cable. It was all they had and I aver the excessive packaging cost more than the interconnect itself.
Regardless, I had my iPhone playing for my company in the car for the long trip. On my own I have molded Etymotics in-ear monitors I use, but I did not want to be a-social. It was awful. There is zero midrange on standard car audio. It was all sizzle and boom on this "system." But I think that is what they mix the source material for. Well that and home theater. Same difference.
I have different speakers at home for different music and different sources. I think the next step is to figure out these DSP options. I developed an irrational aversion to anything between the source-amplifier and the driver over the years. The equalizers I have owned have been terrible. But, I am intrigued by what can be done sorting out the ones/zeros ahead of the DAC or wherever one intervenes with these atrocious sources.
try downloading a few well produced tunes maybe steely dan or some bob marley off the exodus cd on youtube music. https://www.youtube.com/music then use the youtube converter YouTube to mp3 Converter and then burn it and if you can burn it with the other converter and compare the two. I would stay away from live on you tube music it does not sound as good. this has worked good for my cd's. I use full range speakers and have plenty of midrange. I don't think speakers are the problem. dsp is kind of expensive. or if you have your mixes uploaded try them on the youtube converter provided there is a url.
Amen to that Bob.
I was curious if you have been using any of the DSP options. I almost always find myself agreeing with your position that magic and optimism do not obviate the physics or behavior of music reproduction. Have you found much use for a DSP?
thank you bob I have not used it in years. I guess bruce could google to find another mp3 converter or use a hand held device like a Tascam or zoom dr-05 for instance to record in wav or a higher bitrate of mp3. I know the you tube mp3 converter used to work pretty well. I own the dr-05 and I guess you could record an lp in a higher bitrate. I was just trying to eliminate the converter bruce had used.
also I had just received 4 tunes from 2 different producers. two digital recorded I believe on a presonus digital mixer and two on an analog mixer. the digital recording is as you describe is happening to you. it sounds a little phasey if that is a word. like it is going in and out of phase, with some cancellation in various frequencies. the two analog tunes were much better, I could play them any where on all devices and systems. I am not a big fan of digital. I had two offers to do foh mixing in past year and turned them down.
also I had just received 4 tunes from 2 different producers. two digital recorded I believe on a presonus digital mixer and two on an analog mixer. the digital recording is as you describe is happening to you. it sounds a little phasey if that is a word. like it is going in and out of phase, with some cancellation in various frequencies. the two analog tunes were much better, I could play them any where on all devices and systems. I am not a big fan of digital. I had two offers to do foh mixing in past year and turned them down.
I have a couple plate amps I use for sub-woofers and they have built in x-overs. But I think I will look for a big old Crown for my next project with a DSP. I haven't thought about Crown since concerts/dances in college.
I have always experienced reading reviews of DAC's to be largely astrological string theory expressed in fractals. Which means after I get the country voltage right and make sure it can take the optical toslinks I use from my Mac's, it is a total leap of faith. The reviews of these things get me wild. That could get costly. What are you using?
I do not use plate amps. As a group, they are trash quality with finite and all too short live spans. The Crown XLS series are decent quality class D amps with real programable XO's and they are designed to pro sound use. Prices are comparable to equivalent plate amps.
I would not spend more than more that $200 on a DAC. Consumer grade DAC's -- those found in AVR's -- are better than audiophile DAC's of 5 years ago. I use the Topping D20's, and they are good enough. Support USB, SPDIF and TOSLink.
Bob
I would not spend more than more that $200 on a DAC. Consumer grade DAC's -- those found in AVR's -- are better than audiophile DAC's of 5 years ago. I use the Topping D20's, and they are good enough. Support USB, SPDIF and TOSLink.
Bob
Here's an easy way to play around cheap with the sound.
Get Audirvana on your Mac ( Audirvana Plus | The Sound of your Dreams ), when playing flac or dsd files (it plays pretty much every other formats too), Audirvana gave me the cleanest and best sound ever. I tried a bunch more on Macs and PCs, and Audirvana, too me, sounds best.
Best used with a dedicated sound interface or going digital out (via toslink). Mine is hooked to a Presonus USB sound interface dealing with the D-A conversion that sounds pretty good.
It also has the ability to add AU units, so you can experiment with EQ, different filters like Linkwitz, Convolver and Room Correction software, etc ... many are free out there on the web.
About mixes, if not your own, they vary greatly in quality!
Most music these days are competing in the "loudness" war and utterly crap! Everything is compressed so much that there is not much information left. Trying to listen to an album of Katy Perry is an exercise best suited for the deaf!
Just like in the days of good'ol vinyls, there were some good recordings, and some not so good. Not everything vinyl was good. Same in this digital age. Some good recordings, with good sound engineers, have all the intricacies one would expect, and some sound like crap, where all instruments are centered and there's fighting between them for the middle frequencies! Add to that a singer that can barely hit the right notes, and singing his/her lips stuck to the mic!
Finding good recordings is a hit-or-miss thing. There are no guarantees until you actually get them and play them on your system. Or the words of someone you trust!
Most music these days are competing in the "loudness" war and utterly crap! Everything is compressed so much that there is not much information left. Trying to listen to an album of Katy Perry is an exercise best suited for the deaf!
Just like in the days of good'ol vinyls, there were some good recordings, and some not so good. Not everything vinyl was good. Same in this digital age. Some good recordings, with good sound engineers, have all the intricacies one would expect, and some sound like crap, where all instruments are centered and there's fighting between them for the middle frequencies! Add to that a singer that can barely hit the right notes, and singing his/her lips stuck to the mic!
Finding good recordings is a hit-or-miss thing. There are no guarantees until you actually get them and play them on your system. Or the words of someone you trust!
+1. anything mixed for iPods and car radio is going to sound terrible on decent speakers. Anything with highly fuzzed guitar is also not going to do well on quality speakers. Hence my complaint about the AC/DC clip in the comparison thread.
On
Bob
Things were simpler in college when I would move about with my KLH Model 24 and milk crates of ragged LP's. Maybe I should just be resolved to use different speaker systems for different mixes of sources. But I have read about how having too many speakers in a room changes the loading of the room. Ha.
But I am gathering that I am not going to mix or DSP the sources to sound right on my full range systems.
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