Love the sound of a fullranger but I like Hard Rock!! What to do !? - diyAudio
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Old 27th February 2015, 10:45 AM   #1
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Default Love the sound of a fullranger but I like Hard Rock!! What to do !?

Hello Everyone

I was in the middle of a speaker listening marathon to select a good budget speaker for my Yamaha AS500 amp. I had listened JBL Studio 290, Klipsch RB61, Tannoy Mercuri V4i, Monitor Audio BR6, PSB T6 (and its newer version)...etc. I was about to pull the trigger on the Dali Zenzor 7 but then...
I got a call from my friend (Bibin3210, he's a member of diyaudio as well as hifivision) regarding his Frugal Horn fullrange speaker. He said its very good but I was kind of skeptical coz the driver was so tiny (3" ) and just a single one per box while my current Magnat Monitors have three 6.5" woofers and a tweeter (3 way).

BUT, I was just blown away by their sound !!
It was so amazing.
What I was most surprised about was its bass. It was surprisingly tight and well defined.

The only problem with them is Green Day and bands like them.
Most of their songs have a lot of instruments and stuff and when played a high volume, it sounds so "un natural" and full of distortions to me. I tried 30 Seconds Mars's Kings and Queens too....same issue there.

So, I'm wondering if there are any full range speaker designs out there which goes with "loud"ish rock music ?

BTW, here are some of my thoughts regarding speakers.

1. I play my Magnat Monitor speakers (92 db) at around 40% volume using the AS500 (85W @8ohm. ~110W @4ohm).
2. I l have a lot of "heavy" type of music.
3. Off axis response should be good
4. A flat frequency response would be great but TBH, I like a slightly bright, in your face kind of sound signature.
5. I might get a class A amp with low power output...so it would be great if has good sensitivity.
6. I'm not good in building stuff but thankfully, Bibin has agreed to help me out in this matter.
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Old 27th February 2015, 11:17 AM   #2
xrk971 is online now xrk971  United States
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Sounds like you need a full range driver that can pump put high SPL with low distortion. I think what you need is a FAST (Fullrange assisted subwoofer technology) - a two way with a low frequency XO at circa 300Hz. This way, you get the benefits of a full range for point source and phase coherent output in the 300Hz to 6kHz range where localization and imaging are important, and the woofers handle the large excursions needed while reducing inter modulation distortion on the full range because it doesn't have to move much.

Try a FAST with a PRV 5MR450NDY. It has 95dB sensitivity and can handle 225 watts rms. Has very low distortion. Use that with a woofer of your choice (match sensitivity) and cross over at about 300Hz. I would go active bi amp with a miniDSP.

I would characterize the 5MR450NDY as slightly bright and in your face signature. It has decent wide dispersion up to about 6kHz where the important imaging spatial cues are needed.

More info in this thread:
PRV 5MR450-NDY for FAST applications

Last edited by xrk971; 27th February 2015 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 27th February 2015, 12:17 PM   #3
Colin is offline Colin  United Kingdom
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I was going to suggest the FAST route. another approach is to use multiple drive units, possibly in an array. Depending how many you use, this will also up the dB/watt rating of the entire system.

FWIW, there are a lot of excellent, high power solid state amps around which use class A/B or class-D, so using class-A may be limiting yourself unnecessarily.

Or you could build a pair of real horn loudspeakers …
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Last edited by Colin; 27th February 2015 at 12:18 PM. Reason: extra info
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Old 27th February 2015, 02:35 PM   #4
Greg B is offline Greg B  United States
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Yep, FAST system, preferably with a Markaudio, Tangband or Jordan full range. Fostex are often a little too live sounding.

Contrary to popular belief, heavy rock often times does not IME sound good on very low distortion dynamic speakers -- with a few exceptions of course. Compression is your friend, and frankly so is some 2nd order distortion. That said, you don't want speakers that start to break up when cranked.

I find that indie rock is often better recorded than commercial stuff, and sounds better on clean systems. FWIW
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Old 27th February 2015, 02:42 PM   #5
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Check out Audio Nirvanna drivers at commonsenseaudio.com

Very high efficiency drivers from 3" to 15"

You won't have any problem kicking *** with their larger speakers.
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Old 27th February 2015, 03:15 PM   #6
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just my 2c of beginners experience with my frugal horn and heavy metal...

I use the EAD E100HD (their latest, made by scan speak) which share some dna with the jordan/eikona, yet not the same.

To my ears the sound is truly great, revealing. Classical music and "Jordi Savall-music" (don't know what it's called) is great - but my "old" heavy metal records (now digital files) did not sounded as I expected - what I call "flaws" in the production sound was VERY revealing... I guess I have to re-learn how they really sound.

since my rig is a part of a HT, I guess I use a FAUST (full range with a sub) but the sub I tend to have crossed low and at low volume, can be too much otherwise.
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Old 27th February 2015, 03:49 PM   #7
zman01 is offline zman01  Bangladesh
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+1 Greg B and Cango - speakers that are too revealing don't always yield the best enjoyment with heavy rock /metal/thrash genres...

Single FR units struggle to be dynamic enough in 70-200 Hz range, and rock can sound emaciated... a FAST system might be the ticket for you, but my experience with most sub-woofers is that they are better at providing low bass for <50 Hz material and effects, but not very good at slam or punch that rock music wants - maybe I had the wrong subs or poor integration... but I am guessing good woofers will do a better job.
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Old 27th February 2015, 04:54 PM   #8
waxx is offline waxx  Belgium
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i play heavy dub (with a deep and heavy bass) on moderate levels trough an Mark Audio Allpair 10M gen 3 in a ported box without problems, the only thing you need to keep in mind is let your speakers break in enough with soft music (in my case jazz and classic music) before you play that kind of heavy music and play your system only on 80% of the advertised power or lower. A full range line array (multiple full range speakers in one box) with maybe with helper woofers can be a solution if you need high volumes. You can crossover the woofers rather low as most full range go till 100hz or lower without any problem.

My ported box goes till the mid 30's. I was planning to add a subwoofer, but i don't think that is really needed in my case. It could help and i may do it later, but the dub sounds also good without, and better and deeper than most 'hi fi' system play i think.

It's true that flaws in the production are very clear, so you need to live with that. Just like low bitrate digital files sound like ****, and good vinyl records sound so much better than on my old mainstream speakers and low budget studio monitors.

Last edited by waxx; 27th February 2015 at 04:57 PM.
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Old 27th February 2015, 05:39 PM   #9
zobsky is offline zobsky  India
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eljoantonyn View Post
Hello Everyone

I was in the middle of a speaker listening marathon to select a good budget speaker for my Yamaha AS500 amp. I had listened JBL Studio 290, Klipsch RB61, Tannoy Mercuri V4i, Monitor Audio BR6, PSB T6 (and its newer version)...etc. I was about to pull the trigger on the Dali Zenzor 7 but then...
I got a call from my friend (Bibin3210, he's a member of diyaudio as well as hifivision) regarding his Frugal Horn fullrange speaker. He said its very good but I was kind of skeptical coz the driver was so tiny (3" ) and just a single one per box while my current Magnat Monitors have three 6.5" woofers and a tweeter (3 way).

BUT, I was just blown away by their sound !!
It was so amazing.
What I was most surprised about was its bass. It was surprisingly tight and well defined.

The only problem with them is Green Day and bands like them.
Most of their songs have a lot of instruments and stuff and when played a high volume, it sounds so "un natural" and full of distortions to me. I tried 30 Seconds Mars's Kings and Queens too....same issue there.

So, I'm wondering if there are any full range speaker designs out there which goes with "loud"ish rock music ?

BTW, here are some of my thoughts regarding speakers.

1. I play my Magnat Monitor speakers (92 db) at around 40% volume using the AS500 (85W @8ohm. ~110W @4ohm).
2. I l have a lot of "heavy" type of music.
3. Off axis response should be good
4. A flat frequency response would be great but TBH, I like a slightly bright, in your face kind of sound signature.
5. I might get a class A amp with low power output...so it would be great if has good sensitivity.
6. I'm not good in building stuff but thankfully, Bibin has agreed to help me out in this matter.
Well,
I believe I can offer several solutions that might satisfy you but first:
1. How is your listening room set up i.e.
a. what are the dimensions,
b. where/how are your speakers set up in the room - away from / pushed in to the walls, do you have corners / speaker - speaker distance ?
c. how far away from you speakers do you sit
2. What is your budget and what kind of build complexity can you handle ?
3. Where, geographically, are you located - and where do you acquire drivers from?
4. What is your passive crossover design expertise, if any - and do you have any access to measurement tools ? (I personally prefer active w/ mini-dsp)
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Old 27th February 2015, 07:18 PM   #10
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A Classic!

Beta12LT! With a solid bass system (Rock!) and some help on top.

Enter Godzilla in 3, 2, 1, ...



PS Come to think of it, Pro 15s really suit Hard Rock (I love the sound of Tool, Floyd, Soundgarden, Porcupine Tree,, ... and Satriani on pro15s...)

and CompressionHorns on top with narrowing directivity matching wherever you cross the 12LT could ... well, Rock!

5k, ASD1001(?), PSD2002; wide horn
8k, APT150, shorter horn or circular APT80
10k, APT80 or super tweeter

(I have a decades old, cap/res only, 2nd order 10k Piezo Xover designed by Wayne Parham - Pi - to go with my dual piezo element mexiclone KSN1188! ... for my Beta12LT)



Oh yea, how loud are you listening to this ...

Last edited by AudioLapDance; 27th February 2015 at 07:44 PM.
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