chris, this is totally OT, but ive finally settled on amphion one18.
they absolutely destroy the ref3a in everyway possible. the depth and wideness of the stage, the clarity of the low, mid and highs are honestly hard to believe. they disappear, they are amazingly coherent, its like a point source speaker. the center is so full its weird. I thought the phantom center of ref3a was very eye opening, well the amphion is another level or two.
the stage is so well define, the space between instrument so stable its honestly a revelation for me. Listening to jazz or classical music is another level of experience compared to ref 3a. you can see the space, you can feel the feet on the players,ect. They have as much is not more information then my hd 650. the bass is as clean as listening to headphones. its very weird, I had never experience such a thing before.
not to mention the detail retrieval, the impact of the bass, the tightness of the bass, the right size of the instruments, the tone. they are so balanced, so clear yet no bright, smooth but very neutral and packs a crazy load of punch. they absolutely destroy the ref 3a bass, highs and midrange. its like, there no speaker, just pure information. they are very detailed yet not clinical, super musical thing. even coming from audio note an j unique musicality, I feel the amphion are even more musical. im in heaven
im finally settling my listening room, finishing my huge bass traps and panels, im installing a bed for my listening chair as there's nothing better then laying down and enjoying music for long period of time. My journey is finally over!! Will order john brown circlotron amps.
but im looking for option to buid speaker for my family now.
they absolutely destroy the ref3a in everyway possible. the depth and wideness of the stage, the clarity of the low, mid and highs are honestly hard to believe. they disappear, they are amazingly coherent, its like a point source speaker. the center is so full its weird. I thought the phantom center of ref3a was very eye opening, well the amphion is another level or two.
the stage is so well define, the space between instrument so stable its honestly a revelation for me. Listening to jazz or classical music is another level of experience compared to ref 3a. you can see the space, you can feel the feet on the players,ect. They have as much is not more information then my hd 650. the bass is as clean as listening to headphones. its very weird, I had never experience such a thing before.
not to mention the detail retrieval, the impact of the bass, the tightness of the bass, the right size of the instruments, the tone. they are so balanced, so clear yet no bright, smooth but very neutral and packs a crazy load of punch. they absolutely destroy the ref 3a bass, highs and midrange. its like, there no speaker, just pure information. they are very detailed yet not clinical, super musical thing. even coming from audio note an j unique musicality, I feel the amphion are even more musical. im in heaven
im finally settling my listening room, finishing my huge bass traps and panels, im installing a bed for my listening chair as there's nothing better then laying down and enjoying music for long period of time. My journey is finally over!! Will order john brown circlotron amps.
but im looking for option to buid speaker for my family now.
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That's great - but please don't take this the wrong way -"my journey is finally over" is something that I've heard / said countless times before. 🙄
Would you still be entertaining the idea of using the 12Ps, or any FR driver for the family speaker? If so, like I said before, you may not yet have heard all the 12Ps are capable of, and perhaps the family wouldn't be as critical of them - if you let them 😀 .
Would you still be entertaining the idea of using the 12Ps, or any FR driver for the family speaker? If so, like I said before, you may not yet have heard all the 12Ps are capable of, and perhaps the family wouldn't be as critical of them - if you let them 😀 .
YKY,
It's neat to have an audio epiphany like that. It's rare so enjoy it. If you like the sound of dome in a waveguide you will also like a synergy where the tweeter, mids, and bass are all in a point source coherent waveguide that reduces room spray from ruining the music. That has been my audio epiphany - like magic and you know it when you hear it.
What do those One 18's sell for?
Ain't that the truth. 🙂
It's neat to have an audio epiphany like that. It's rare so enjoy it. If you like the sound of dome in a waveguide you will also like a synergy where the tweeter, mids, and bass are all in a point source coherent waveguide that reduces room spray from ruining the music. That has been my audio epiphany - like magic and you know it when you hear it.
What do those One 18's sell for?
Ain't that the truth. 🙂
I've got Unity horns, and within their confines, sounded more "together" imo than a lot of FR. Tom Danley talks about generational faithfulness - where the speaker's output is recorded - and fed back through - then recorded and fed back through - the errors accumulate quickly. I'm not wholly convinced that single drivers are always superior to well executed multi-way.
That's because they aren't. I doubt many people believe widebanders to always be superior to multiways, or visa versa. Context is all. I use and like both, but not for the same reasons.
the one18 are 3k shipped. they are relatively new, they have been introduced 6 month ago. Ive read the immense thread of a audio engineer that tried most of the very high end monitors, and describe each of them: around 30 monitors all ranging from 5k up to 15k and the amphion came out one of his choice of monitors along geithans. He tried focal, ATC, PMC, PSI, ect, you can see his 30 monitors tried https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/851143-high-end-nearfield-test-88.html
you can see his review at post 2629. in this whole thread, he describe all the speaker hes tried, some costing upward of 15k like the PMC, ATC ect and well he chose the geithans and the amphion 🙂.
Its funny XRK971 that you mention your audio epiphany as the engineer ended with geithans which is a 3 way all in a point source and also ended with the amphion.
http://www.me-geithain.de/index.php/en/studio/products/active-loudspeaker/rl-801k
then you can find many many long time engineer saying that the amphion are some of the best monitors they have ever come across.
https://www.gearslutz.com/board/high-end/851143-high-end-nearfield-test-88.html
Ive heard harbeth, tannoy dc red 15, wilson audio cub 2, ive had audio note, ref 3a, kef ls 50, and heard proac, focal, ect the amphion are honestly, much better. its in another league all together.
but yeah, thats the end of the road for me and its a hell of a relief. at one point, I never thought I would ever be totally satisfied, then the amphion came in !!!
sorry for having been so OT
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I have been building loud speaker boxes for around 34 years.
As yet I have never built a speaker with a cross over in it.
I mostly use full or nearly full range speakers.
My first build was using 4 Fane 50WRMS speakers, 2 each in 2 cabinets.
I think they just went up to 4KHz but they sounded fine, I never got any complaints from punters to my mobile disco, except maybe turn it down a bit !
I have built 18 inch subs with out crossovers and they sounded fine.
My current build is using Fane Sovereign 250-TC's.
They work up to 17KHz and sound very good.
As yet I have never built a speaker with a cross over in it.
I mostly use full or nearly full range speakers.
My first build was using 4 Fane 50WRMS speakers, 2 each in 2 cabinets.
I think they just went up to 4KHz but they sounded fine, I never got any complaints from punters to my mobile disco, except maybe turn it down a bit !
I have built 18 inch subs with out crossovers and they sounded fine.
My current build is using Fane Sovereign 250-TC's.
They work up to 17KHz and sound very good.
Those Geithains are not in a horn - basically a big 3-way coaxial. Note how the author picked the Amphion which has a waveguide/horn as it makes all the difference. I suggest anyone who has only listened to open faced direct driver speakers to listen to a good horn. You will never hear music the same way again once you know what it *can* sound like when not sprayed all over ambient wall surfaces. The point source nature is important but the controlled directivity of a horn is key, IMO.
Here is my Trynergy (tractrix full range synergy) setup.
the waveguide is helpful, but you will find half of most monitor studio using waveguide.
the magic of amphion comes with the xo quality, the low xo point, the amazing solid cabinet, the passive radiator, the way the two driver integrate in the time domain and phase in a way Ive never experience before.
my room have first reflection point treated, and the test at gearslutz was made in a room where the reflection are totally controlled. the amazing quality of amphion is not only the waveguide, t
the magic of amphion comes with the xo quality, the low xo point, the amazing solid cabinet, the passive radiator, the way the two driver integrate in the time domain and phase in a way Ive never experience before.
my room have first reflection point treated, and the test at gearslutz was made in a room where the reflection are totally controlled. the amazing quality of amphion is not only the waveguide, t
Those Geithains are not in a horn - basically a big 3-way coaxial. Note how the author picked the Amphion which has a waveguide/horn as it makes all the difference. I suggest anyone who has only listened to open faced direct driver speakers to listen to a good horn. You will never hear music the same way again once you know what it *can* sound like when not sprayed all over ambient wall surfaces. The point source nature is important but the controlled directivity of a horn is key, IMO.
Here is my Trynergy (tractrix full range synergy) setup.
In Akabak they are treated differently as "Horns" include a radiator element and a full 3d spatially-resolved specified curvature radiation pattern is calculated. If a "Waveguide" plus "Radiator" element is used, it assumes a flat radiator.
In practical sense, a "waveguide" on tweeter is very shallow and helps to load the dome tweeter to extend the response a bit lower and to control the dispersion some but still comes out pretty much 180 deg and wide. These waveguides are very common and will not give you the epiphany of the synergy that I am talking about.
A "horn" like what I am talking about, like a tractrix or conical synergy is much bigger, longer and loads the drivers down much lower (at least to mids at 500 Hz) and has a narrower directivity. I prefer something along 50 to 60 deg rather 90 or 120 deg or 180 deg as that has too much spray off of walls.
In practical sense, a "waveguide" on tweeter is very shallow and helps to load the dome tweeter to extend the response a bit lower and to control the dispersion some but still comes out pretty much 180 deg and wide. These waveguides are very common and will not give you the epiphany of the synergy that I am talking about.
A "horn" like what I am talking about, like a tractrix or conical synergy is much bigger, longer and loads the drivers down much lower (at least to mids at 500 Hz) and has a narrower directivity. I prefer something along 50 to 60 deg rather 90 or 120 deg or 180 deg as that has too much spray off of walls.
So there's no interchangeability between the term "horn" and "waveguide", like the passage I quoted before.
I assume that the "environment" near the throat must be very hard, in terms of air pressure, so the tweeter and the driver must also be thought/constructed ( engineered) to be in that "environment".
I made some experiments with some paper cones, unused speakers, that I used as WG. One uses a 8" (nom.) with a Monacor SPX-20, the other a 10" with an old pioneer coaxial for car ( 4 " ), respectively paired with an 8" and a 10" woofer. The only horn I built, paper mache for a B&C De7 tweeter/CD.
I assume that the "environment" near the throat must be very hard, in terms of air pressure, so the tweeter and the driver must also be thought/constructed ( engineered) to be in that "environment".
I made some experiments with some paper cones, unused speakers, that I used as WG. One uses a 8" (nom.) with a Monacor SPX-20, the other a 10" with an old pioneer coaxial for car ( 4 " ), respectively paired with an 8" and a 10" woofer. The only horn I built, paper mache for a B&C De7 tweeter/CD.
The smoothest response - though not even the flattest - seems slightly off axis (15 degrees). Listening slightly off axis and using equalization due to the "preferred axis" improves quality achievable with many fullrangers IMO.
Kind regards.
Yes, from post #47 (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/267966-why-bother-frs-5.html#post4184730), I said
In plot below 15 deg is the orange curve:
Here is corresponding IR:
Whereas if you listen at 0 deg, the IR looks like it might have come from ringing bell:
Even if the response looks smoother at 15 degrees the variations within the listening window increase with off-axis listening. The larger the full-range driver the larger the variations. The smallest amount of variations is generally found around 0 degree.
A lot of problems can go unnoticed when looking at the off-axis response in 15 degree steps. 5 degrees steps or smaller within the listening window is more revealing.
pnix said:
So your conclusion is, "listen on axis, no matter how bad FR is" ?
I toe these
http://www.dipol-audio.de/index-dateien/image005.jpg
particular speakers usually in to point slightly behind the main listening seat.
That is suitable
- from the stereo imaging point of view
- from a "there may be more listeners" point of view
- from the "smoothest FR" point of view and from the
- "bring ipsilateral side reflecions down in level" point of view
as well. And this is also why crossover/equalizing network is aligned for that kind of toe in.
Of course there are also different concepts regarding toe in, like RLX e.g. ... which also uses "off axis behaviour", though i am not an advocator of RLX myself.
BTW with drivers arranged symmetrically - in the middle - on the baffle, you will have the "largest deviations" exactly around 0 degrees due to the symmetrical diffraction pattern. This holds at least for the "wide" radiating frequency range of a driver, which is affected by baffle edge diffraction.
http://www.dipol-audio.de/dipol08_sketch.html
If you want to get rid of that symmetrical diffraction patterns fully pronounced at 0 degrees, then an asymmetrical arrangement of the driver is advantageous.
Of course in FR drivers especially highs are not affected by baffle edge diffraction usually.
Kind Regards
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My conclusion is to listen on axis if the response can be equalized. If it can't be equalized then the driver is beyond repair anyway.
tc9 looks pretty flat till 8-9khz about 15 degrees off axis.
Love to make this from them, cone area around a 6.5" and dispersion worse than an 8".
xrk971, want to build one for me ?
(looking at my avatar), you can see how 1 driver isn't enough.
Maybe I should have kept my focused array (I don't crank music too much anymore).
Norman
Love to make this from them, cone area around a 6.5" and dispersion worse than an 8".
xrk971, want to build one for me ?
(looking at my avatar), you can see how 1 driver isn't enough.
Maybe I should have kept my focused array (I don't crank music too much anymore).
Norman
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