Hi everyone - newbie here. Actually, I have built a few pairs of speakers before over the past couple of decades, so I'm not totally green. Anyway, I'm looking for advice for building a center channel and rears for a 5.1 system. My mains are Seas Prestige CA18RNX with Seas H1189-06 tweeters. 12" ported subwoofer. I want to build a center and rears, but cost is really a factor, as I have already spent more than my wife would like me to on the mains and sub. Anyway, I'm looking for recommendations for drivers to keep the cost down but still compliment what I've already got. I'm looking at full-range drivers because of their lower cost, but also because it seems like full-range design, materials, and manufacturing have come a long way in recent years.
I would love to simply build 3 little ported boxes, slap a MarkAudio CHP-70 or CHN-70 in each one and call it a day. Yes, I'm oversimplifying for the sake of brevity.
But I don't know if these would compliment my Seas mains? Or if 4" drivers in general are too small and would get lost in my 24x24 great room? I'm not an audiophile perfectionist anymore, and I'm on a budget, so I don't need it to sound perfect. I just need it to sound decent. I know my center should probably be the same driver as my mains, but it would be expensive to buy another CA18RNX, especially considering I'd need to buy another tweeter and crossover too.
Anyway, any advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance!
I would love to simply build 3 little ported boxes, slap a MarkAudio CHP-70 or CHN-70 in each one and call it a day. Yes, I'm oversimplifying for the sake of brevity.
But I don't know if these would compliment my Seas mains? Or if 4" drivers in general are too small and would get lost in my 24x24 great room? I'm not an audiophile perfectionist anymore, and I'm on a budget, so I don't need it to sound perfect. I just need it to sound decent. I know my center should probably be the same driver as my mains, but it would be expensive to buy another CA18RNX, especially considering I'd need to buy another tweeter and crossover too. Anyway, any advice is appreciated. Thanks in advance!
There are many who opine that a dedicated centre is not at all necessary - but after experiment with a few different combinations during the past decade, including abandoning the idea due to the complexity of balancing levels etc back in the dark ages , I've come to the opposite conclusion - thanks in no small part to the automated calibration / EQ systems such as Audyssey (and others)
What I strongly contend is that if you're going to go for a surround, that it should be as close a timbral match to the L&R mains as possible. While you can bandpass the signal to reduce its requirement for output below 80HZ ( THX) or higher, and thereby reduce the volume of enclosure, you should definitely consider using the same make and model of drivers across the front row. I also believe that since a very high percentage of the audio program is generally mixed to focus on the centre, that it is the most important speaker in a multi-channel system. Lots will disagree of course.
That all said, the CHN / CHP are great little drivers, and might work well for effects surrounds ( height / width / rears etc) in a smaller room, but perhaps might be over taxed at the volume levels required for a larger space? - and certainly not suited as center in your case.
Fostex FF165WK might be a good candidate for center.
My own 5.1 set-up is in 320ft^2 room, and my daily drivers are Alpair 10Ps across the front, with A6Ms in the rear - I doubt the system has approached THX reference standard more than half a dozen times in the past several years.
Mind you, the World Engine in Man of Steel did give the LFE channel's drivers a good work out
, I've come to the opposite conclusion - thanks in no small part to the automated calibration / EQ systems such as Audyssey (and others)What I strongly contend is that if you're going to go for a surround, that it should be as close a timbral match to the L&R mains as possible. While you can bandpass the signal to reduce its requirement for output below 80HZ ( THX) or higher, and thereby reduce the volume of enclosure, you should definitely consider using the same make and model of drivers across the front row. I also believe that since a very high percentage of the audio program is generally mixed to focus on the centre, that it is the most important speaker in a multi-channel system. Lots will disagree of course.
That all said, the CHN / CHP are great little drivers, and might work well for effects surrounds ( height / width / rears etc) in a smaller room, but perhaps might be over taxed at the volume levels required for a larger space? - and certainly not suited as center in your case.
Fostex FF165WK might be a good candidate for center.
My own 5.1 set-up is in 320ft^2 room, and my daily drivers are Alpair 10Ps across the front, with A6Ms in the rear - I doubt the system has approached THX reference standard more than half a dozen times in the past several years.
Mind you, the World Engine in Man of Steel did give the LFE channel's drivers a good work out
I gave up on the center channel. If your L&R speakers cover it all your going to get is phasing problems. I just select phanton on my yamaha surround settings.
Even when I got the speaker to work properly it did not add anything to the movie experience.
Rear channels help a lot. That said they can be much smaller. My first pairs were 4" full range 90db speakers that start to roll off at 100hz. Now I have 4" full range speakers that roll off around 60hz.
Most of the effects on the rears are in the 2k range so you don't need much speaker wise.
I tried using 2 way speakers back there but at low volumes all I got was static.
Even when I got the speaker to work properly it did not add anything to the movie experience.
Rear channels help a lot. That said they can be much smaller. My first pairs were 4" full range 90db speakers that start to roll off at 100hz. Now I have 4" full range speakers that roll off around 60hz.
Most of the effects on the rears are in the 2k range so you don't need much speaker wise.
I tried using 2 way speakers back there but at low volumes all I got was static.
While based on my own experience, I'll politely disagree with the first part (predicted in my earlier post) - I think you're right on the mark re surrounds. Even with programming that you don't think has a lot of ping pong / overflying jet fighter etc effects, there's usually a lot of ambience cues that you miss when not there - the enveloping space just collapses. I've even noticed this on live music concert recordings - audience noise, hall ambience etc.
And no, the surround channels don't require full bandwidth to elicit some measure of effect - little 4" FR drivers can work quite nicely there (this is after all the FR forum) - although of courses the purists / pendants will likely maintain otherwise.
I also like to have a centre channel. Even with good L/R mains. There's a lot of audio information that goes into the centre channel.
The problem was always having a matched centre to the mains. Most homes cant have 3 towers for fronts.
I solved that with my current setup. I have a centre channel, but it am able to send about 60% of it to the mains L/R. Now, my centre blends completely with the mains, and I have a little extra centre audio information that works really well.
And yes, surrounds are good!
The problem was always having a matched centre to the mains. Most homes cant have 3 towers for fronts.
I solved that with my current setup. I have a centre channel, but it am able to send about 60% of it to the mains L/R. Now, my centre blends completely with the mains, and I have a little extra centre audio information that works really well.
And yes, surrounds are good!
if in 5.1 mode, a lot of movies won't have any dialogue if the center speaker is missing. I found that out when mine accidentally became disconnected. Some modern movies benefit from no dialogue
You have to enable the center phantom mode in your receiver. Otherwise, the receiver thinks a center speaker is used and send dialogues there... but it's true that some movies would benefit being dialogue-less!
OK thanks everyone. I'm trying to digest all this. So if I can summarize what I think I'm hearing:
1) The center channel is important because there is a lot of information there.
2) The center may be able to be phantomed, but this is probably not as good as having a dedicated center channel speaker.
3) It really and truly is important to use the same or similar drivers for the center as the ones used for the mains.
4) The rear channels are important too, both for movie special effects and live music recordings.
5) It is not necessary to use the same drivers for the rears as those in the front.
So if I am understanding all this correctly (and please let me know if that is not the case), then maybe my best bet is to do the following:
1) Order a pair of full range drivers for the rears and build them up now.
2) Temporarily phantom the center while I save my pennies for a center speaker based on the same CA18RNX/H1189-06 used in the mains.
Does that sound reasonable? If so, can anyone offer their opinions on the CHP-70 or CHN-70 for the rears?
Thanks again - I really appreciate all the advice!
1) The center channel is important because there is a lot of information there.
2) The center may be able to be phantomed, but this is probably not as good as having a dedicated center channel speaker.
3) It really and truly is important to use the same or similar drivers for the center as the ones used for the mains.
4) The rear channels are important too, both for movie special effects and live music recordings.
5) It is not necessary to use the same drivers for the rears as those in the front.
So if I am understanding all this correctly (and please let me know if that is not the case), then maybe my best bet is to do the following:
1) Order a pair of full range drivers for the rears and build them up now.
2) Temporarily phantom the center while I save my pennies for a center speaker based on the same CA18RNX/H1189-06 used in the mains.
Does that sound reasonable? If so, can anyone offer their opinions on the CHP-70 or CHN-70 for the rears?
Thanks again - I really appreciate all the advice!
Yep you have it.
the center channel is the hard one. Yes there is a lot of info but with the phantom setting the info is there. Better L/R speakers or a small room equals less need for a center.
On my system getting the speaker magnets in a line did wonders and most amps will let you adjust the delay on the center channel but since my L&R speakers are only 6 feet apart in a 12 wide room I didn't need it.
the center channel is the hard one. Yes there is a lot of info but with the phantom setting the info is there. Better L/R speakers or a small room equals less need for a center.
On my system getting the speaker magnets in a line did wonders and most amps will let you adjust the delay on the center channel but since my L&R speakers are only 6 feet apart in a 12 wide room I didn't need it.
Cool, thanks Jsixis. I think I'm gonna go ahead and order two CHR-70A drivers for the rear. I have an old receiver in the basement with which I can break them in. After they are broken in, I might even just play with one of them in a temporary box in the center to see how it sounds with my mains. Who knows, maybe I'll get lucky and it will integrate better than expected. If so, I'll just order a 3rd and build up a permanent box for it in the center.
Happy to have learned something from you folks - thanks again!
Happy to have learned something from you folks - thanks again!
This thread could run for many more pages without consensus on #2 in your list - but if you do elect for a dedicated center, that'd probably not be the case for #3 - IOW, I think timbral matching is very important
As for #4 / 5 and both items on your second list, my vote's for yes, probably - I've just not been that happy with the results of "phantom" centre (not actually called that on the Onkyo's speaker set up menu, IIRC).
Between the two CH models listed for potential surrounds, I'd go for the CHNs. I find the latest CHPs a bit too soft in the highs, and though they might serve find for surrounds due to the limited bandwidth of most programming in the effects channels, if these were ever to be upgraded/ repurposed to another system, they might be found wanting.
Of course you'd be the final arbiter of whether any of the advice given here works for you, so as always, caveat emptor, YMMV, etc.
edit, I missed your post re the CHR70a - a fine choice as well
I upgrade my receiver and the new Yamaha has the YPAO mic.
Now I know why I could never get a good center channel, it was a bose 200 model speaker and it sucks so bad it needs a 30DB increase to keep up with my home built full range speakers (pioneer 8" with whizzer).
So now a new center channel design is in the works and I was wrong.
Center channel has big advantages especially for voices. They are clearer.
That said, the phantom works way better then a speaker that doesn't work as good as the mains.
I can't have a 4 foot long 12x12 box for a center channel so I need to work on something.
I still use 4 " for the rear channels, they are the same drivers as in the 901's series II speakers and Frazier speakers, CTX maked them. Boxes roll off at 80hz, according to win ISD and the yamaha mic verified it.
I plan on building another set for full 7.1 set up, with the those going behind and above my mains.
I should have said the advantage of full range drivers is there are no crossovers
to get in the way. We had Boston Acoustic 555's for rears that would make the static noise. My wife noticed it first (she has much better hearing). After I heard it by putting my ears up to them they were done. Spent good money on those, oh well live and learn. Tweeters may get re used but the bass drivers are yuck.
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The center needs to be the same speaker as left and right.
Then the rear should be the same.
1, 2, or 3 way, just be the same.
I think an 8" or bigger can make a better "phantom" setting due to less dispersion past 2khz.
I learned that with my thiels.
You can find out running 1 speaker at a time and perceiving where the speaker is.
But for seating more than 1 couch, definitely run a center for movies.
Then the rear should be the same.
1, 2, or 3 way, just be the same.
I think an 8" or bigger can make a better "phantom" setting due to less dispersion past 2khz.
I learned that with my thiels.
You can find out running 1 speaker at a time and perceiving where the speaker is.
But for seating more than 1 couch, definitely run a center for movies.
Based on my experience with using full rangers for surround applications for a few years now, I'd modify that slightly - but definitely recommend that the upper mid-bass through upper mid-range ( i.e. "telephone band") should at least be drivers from the same manufacturer with as similar voicing as will fit enclosures that can be accommodated in the space available for the center enclosure. That's often the most awkward squeeze - particularly with screen sizes of at least 65" now being normal. I recently made an upgrade from 46" LG to a 65" Visio UHD, yada yada - and holy snappin a$$hats.
It's so incredibly easy with even the entry level models of current generation of surround receivers to adjust the XO for each channel independently after the initial speaker calibration. Provided you aren't looking for THX certified levels, you can very likely get by with a single 4" or so full range driver for center crossed over in the 100-120Hz range.
Of course, if you are looking for the "full body immersion experience" in a large room with tiered festival seating, then full range - as in single/ wide-band drivers- is probably not the best choice.
I've been using various combinations of FR drivers in my own little 7.1 system for a few years now, and am currently running Mark Audio Alpairs and CHPs all round- with A12PW/A7.3 MTM for L/R mains, and A10P in centre.
It's so incredibly easy with even the entry level models of current generation of surround receivers to adjust the XO for each channel independently after the initial speaker calibration. Provided you aren't looking for THX certified levels, you can very likely get by with a single 4" or so full range driver for center crossed over in the 100-120Hz range.
Of course, if you are looking for the "full body immersion experience" in a large room with tiered festival seating, then full range - as in single/ wide-band drivers- is probably not the best choice.
I've been using various combinations of FR drivers in my own little 7.1 system for a few years now, and am currently running Mark Audio Alpairs and CHPs all round- with A12PW/A7.3 MTM for L/R mains, and A10P in centre.
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