Hey all,
I am much more anal about my 2 channel system than my HT setup (Movies and kids play Xbox, cable, etc), and have a question....I had a Home Theater nut come by and see my HT setup...He was quite happy / impressed with what I have for my 2 channel music setup, but he laughed at my HT setup. I have a pair of Fostex FE-206 (for fronts) and a single FE127 (for center) mounted flush in wall, and a pair of FE127 in ceiling for rears. A homemade decent sub doing all LF...a standard 5.1 setup.
Anyway, I ran all the Fostex drivers full range, no crossovers, and have the Pioneer SC-07 equalize and tune the sound per seating locations (and all drivers High Pass crossed over at 80hz) and room dimensions via their MCACC setup system...
I think it sounds quite nice - spent a fraction of what most people spend on HT equipment (while there seems to be no limit on what I spend on 2 channel setup, as it is in my "Cave"), but my "expert" friend thinks I am fooling myself...he didn't hear the system, but I am now wondering....
I am a planar / ESL / ribbon guy and have bought Magnepan MMG-W, and the MMG-C to try in setup....but I keep second guessing myself....
Opinions please....
I am much more anal about my 2 channel system than my HT setup (Movies and kids play Xbox, cable, etc), and have a question....I had a Home Theater nut come by and see my HT setup...He was quite happy / impressed with what I have for my 2 channel music setup, but he laughed at my HT setup. I have a pair of Fostex FE-206 (for fronts) and a single FE127 (for center) mounted flush in wall, and a pair of FE127 in ceiling for rears. A homemade decent sub doing all LF...a standard 5.1 setup.
Anyway, I ran all the Fostex drivers full range, no crossovers, and have the Pioneer SC-07 equalize and tune the sound per seating locations (and all drivers High Pass crossed over at 80hz) and room dimensions via their MCACC setup system...
I think it sounds quite nice - spent a fraction of what most people spend on HT equipment (while there seems to be no limit on what I spend on 2 channel setup, as it is in my "Cave"), but my "expert" friend thinks I am fooling myself...he didn't hear the system, but I am now wondering....
I am a planar / ESL / ribbon guy and have bought Magnepan MMG-W, and the MMG-C to try in setup....but I keep second guessing myself....
Opinions please....
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Hi John,
Sounds like a nice system to me. If it works for you at the volumes you play at I don't see why you should worry.
Cinema spec like thx requires a lot of headroom which your set up might not have but unless you listen at those levels why worry?
My old 8" full rangers used to run out of steam quite quickly but that was mainly due to my using them unfiltered in large reflex enclosures. Your crossing them over at 80hz should help, maybe the center might need more?
I'm sure some experienced fostex men will enter the fray soon sir
Sounds like a nice system to me. If it works for you at the volumes you play at I don't see why you should worry.
Cinema spec like thx requires a lot of headroom which your set up might not have but unless you listen at those levels why worry?
My old 8" full rangers used to run out of steam quite quickly but that was mainly due to my using them unfiltered in large reflex enclosures. Your crossing them over at 80hz should help, maybe the center might need more?
I'm sure some experienced fostex men will enter the fray soon sir
Are all the drivers flush mounted? Sounds perfect. No baffle step to deal with! The FE206 will still need some EQ to correct their rising response, but it sounds like you have that covered.
Don't worry about what your expert friend says. The fact that he'd comment without hearing it says something about his 'expertise' right off the bat. Fostex signal quality is right up there with anything available, if properly implemented. It's true you can get a little better clarity at the top and bottom of the spectrum by going multi-way, but you pay a price because the crossover screws up the square wave/impulse response and power response.
I've heard DIY speakers with Fostex and even Radio Shack full range drivers trounce $50,000+ systems.
Don't worry about what your expert friend says. The fact that he'd comment without hearing it says something about his 'expertise' right off the bat. Fostex signal quality is right up there with anything available, if properly implemented. It's true you can get a little better clarity at the top and bottom of the spectrum by going multi-way, but you pay a price because the crossover screws up the square wave/impulse response and power response.
I've heard DIY speakers with Fostex and even Radio Shack full range drivers trounce $50,000+ systems.
Happy Holidaze and all that jive!
Well, being first and foremost a cinema/live venue sound buff and what got me started DIYing speakers at age 8, I 'shake my head' at any sound system, be it mono or multiple channel, that doesn't have the required controlled directivity/power response, dynamic range and headroom to accurately as practical reproduce the soundtrack as the producer intended it in whatever ‘room’ it may be in, but for most folks this obviously isn't a viable option for numerous reasons at least at some point in one’s life, so very few folks can do any ‘laughing’ without being a hypocrite.
So, where to compromise the sound system to at least retain most of the ‘flavor’/’emotion’ the producer hoped to convey?
This is so room, personal hearing ‘quirks’ dependent and the fact that there’s precious few truly reference HT [or even cinema] systems for folks to compare to that beyond a few basic necessities such as using either large horns or multiple way speakers along with room treatment to get some semblance of controlled directivity/power response, dynamic range and headroom.
For single driver speaker systems this usually boils down to how well they tonally balance through the ~100-5 kHz AM radio bandwidth [BW], so minimizing ‘splashing’ the room’s boundaries, furniture, etc., with long enough delayed reflections to degrade clarity at the various listening positions [LP] as well as choosing the right size driver for each channel to get a ‘close enough’ power response [polar pattern] in this BW are obvious necessities.
Ditto sufficient peak power handling [+20 dB/channel for HT and up to +30 dB in the ~250-500 Hz BW on some recordings] at low distortion for the desired average SPL.
This latter one is a real ‘gotcha’ for many ‘FR’ drivers if the 85 dB/channel/LP THX cinema reference is a performance goal and to a lesser extent the 79-81 dB TV broadcast reference, but most folks seem either quite happy with a lower average even if not forced to due to neighbors, etc.; so now there’s a 75 dB reference that most ‘FR’ drivers can meet, though not the power response part, and of course there’s folks that listen at even lower averages for whatever reason that make smaller ‘FR’ drivers viable when combined with a separate [mid] woofer/‘sub’ system.
With all this in mind, your ‘mix n’ match’ system seems a reasonable one since I imagine you’ve set the average SPL based on keeping vocals/speech intelligibility high as most folks do and especially if you’ve done some selective damping to minimize reflections such that any minimally/un-damped ones left fall outside the entire LP area.
A scaled drawing of one’s room, speaker placement and overlaying various generic polar patterns of various frame size drivers combined with [usually] needed toe-in can go a long ways towards making good choices WRT driver size.
FWIW, adding super-tweeters to ‘FR’ drivers to improve power response, or better, using co or tri-ax speakers, is what I recommend for most HT systems if unwilling/able to use horns for whatever reason.
GM
Well, being first and foremost a cinema/live venue sound buff and what got me started DIYing speakers at age 8, I 'shake my head' at any sound system, be it mono or multiple channel, that doesn't have the required controlled directivity/power response, dynamic range and headroom to accurately as practical reproduce the soundtrack as the producer intended it in whatever ‘room’ it may be in, but for most folks this obviously isn't a viable option for numerous reasons at least at some point in one’s life, so very few folks can do any ‘laughing’ without being a hypocrite.
So, where to compromise the sound system to at least retain most of the ‘flavor’/’emotion’ the producer hoped to convey?
This is so room, personal hearing ‘quirks’ dependent and the fact that there’s precious few truly reference HT [or even cinema] systems for folks to compare to that beyond a few basic necessities such as using either large horns or multiple way speakers along with room treatment to get some semblance of controlled directivity/power response, dynamic range and headroom.
For single driver speaker systems this usually boils down to how well they tonally balance through the ~100-5 kHz AM radio bandwidth [BW], so minimizing ‘splashing’ the room’s boundaries, furniture, etc., with long enough delayed reflections to degrade clarity at the various listening positions [LP] as well as choosing the right size driver for each channel to get a ‘close enough’ power response [polar pattern] in this BW are obvious necessities.
Ditto sufficient peak power handling [+20 dB/channel for HT and up to +30 dB in the ~250-500 Hz BW on some recordings] at low distortion for the desired average SPL.
This latter one is a real ‘gotcha’ for many ‘FR’ drivers if the 85 dB/channel/LP THX cinema reference is a performance goal and to a lesser extent the 79-81 dB TV broadcast reference, but most folks seem either quite happy with a lower average even if not forced to due to neighbors, etc.; so now there’s a 75 dB reference that most ‘FR’ drivers can meet, though not the power response part, and of course there’s folks that listen at even lower averages for whatever reason that make smaller ‘FR’ drivers viable when combined with a separate [mid] woofer/‘sub’ system.
With all this in mind, your ‘mix n’ match’ system seems a reasonable one since I imagine you’ve set the average SPL based on keeping vocals/speech intelligibility high as most folks do and especially if you’ve done some selective damping to minimize reflections such that any minimally/un-damped ones left fall outside the entire LP area.
A scaled drawing of one’s room, speaker placement and overlaying various generic polar patterns of various frame size drivers combined with [usually] needed toe-in can go a long ways towards making good choices WRT driver size.
FWIW, adding super-tweeters to ‘FR’ drivers to improve power response, or better, using co or tri-ax speakers, is what I recommend for most HT systems if unwilling/able to use horns for whatever reason.
GM
Member
Joined 2009
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I had a 5 ch set up using FE127 and the clarity was superb. But I have changed over to mult-way floor standing speakers because I couldn't get the ooomph I wanted without them. If I were setting up again, in a smaller space the I'd consider going Full Range once more. So I've tried it both ways and would say - if it sounds good for you, it's good.
The only possible reason your friend dismissed without listening is that he believes that to be a credible HT system, it needs to be THX certified. Very tough for many multiway speakers to meet this requirement let alone a fullrange. You need 85dBC at listening position (so add 6dB for 2m away) with 20dB headroom capability on the mains and 115dB peak capability on subs. This is with acceptably low distortion levels. Frankly, THX levels are too loud for me so I have to bring earplugs when I go to movies.
That is assuming there is a rational reason to dismiss them. I'd suspect that it's an argument from common practice.
Last time I bothered to look, HT enthusiasts were still listening to teeny little cone & dome boxes for the most part, which are serious if you're an audiophile. Probably electrostats would be considered acceptable as well.
As GM has already alluded to in his post, (apologies if i misinterpret) best solution is to go with large format pro drivers if you really want it to sound like the movies. However, most people do not actually have a need or desire to watch movies at that loudness level at home.
Last time I bothered to look, HT enthusiasts were still listening to teeny little cone & dome boxes for the most part, which are serious if you're an audiophile. Probably electrostats would be considered acceptable as well.
As GM has already alluded to in his post, (apologies if i misinterpret) best solution is to go with large format pro drivers if you really want it to sound like the movies. However, most people do not actually have a need or desire to watch movies at that loudness level at home.
Hi,
Your AV system sounds vastly superior to a system that doesn't
have the the ability to EQ the speakers, why ? Because your
speakers need seroius Equing. An old school AV amplier with
simple level controls would never work, and in that context
your "expert" friend is right, it would sound dreadful.
Me being an "expert" TBH since I don't have AV I don't really
really know how advanced the DSP in your Pioneer is, but for
sure you've used speakers that will maximise its benefits,
and confuse it the least it in what its trying to do.
Though I'd suggest in what its trying to do you need to up
the centre channels high pass, otherwise it will have too
much bass boost compared to L+R and dominate the
bass distortion down to 80Hz. The rears should have
little real bass in practice, but you never know so
they should be higher passed than L+R too.
Assuming the DSP can handle it I'd HP L+R @ 80Hz
the centre @ ~ 125Hz and the rears @ ~ 100Hz.
assuming the DSP reroutes centre and rear bass
above 80Hz to the L+R speakers, which it should.
rgds, sreten.
Personally I'd also convert the centre to a 1.5
way with an an extra FE127 just for the extra
efficiency and lower distortion levels, about
750Hz x/o should be fine for the 0.5 driver.
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That, or build it in a small room where the LP is ~in the nearfield [<4ft].
Yeah, there's HT where the goal is to visually and sonically reproduce a close semblance to a cinema event, then there's the individual's wants/needs that usually winds up being about having a big, high definition picture with screen popping colors/brilliance that until recently only a few Technicolor film movies could come close to emulating; and even then they are still film 'grainy' in texture, something the youth market finds unacceptable in many movie film transfers.
For the most part, the sound system is an afterthought. Indeed, most folks I know either just use the TV’s speakers, with a few adding a cheap center channel and fewer still adding a ‘sub’ [woofer, actually], or have a cheap HT in a box [HTiB] system, none of which is properly set up per its instructions, yet it satisfies them.
GM
Yup, that what I have been thinking all along - since I put in the system over 3 years ago. As long as the receiver has the ability to RTA and augment the signal to correct any Fostex "shoutiness" or humps / suckouts in frequency range over 80 hz, why make it any more complicated? The infinite baffle effect and clean look is great with the wife, and the Fostex drivers have grills so I can relax when the kids can get a little crazy around them...
I will add a ribbon tweeter for the L-R fronts crossed first order around 10k, raise center channel to 125hz, and set rears to 100hz, and then re-run the MCACC program to fine tune.
Entire setup with HD Projector, cost me less than $1100, which is less than the "expert" paid for his sub alone... BAH!
And I will tell my friend to cram it up his cram hole...
I will add a ribbon tweeter for the L-R fronts crossed first order around 10k, raise center channel to 125hz, and set rears to 100hz, and then re-run the MCACC program to fine tune.
Entire setup with HD Projector, cost me less than $1100, which is less than the "expert" paid for his sub alone... BAH!
And I will tell my friend to cram it up his cram hole...
if not too late, take the high road, and don't recommend the physically improbable ( but who knows, your friend may have had similar feedback from other recipients of this expertise, and is perhaps inured, nay, addicted to the discomfort? )
just enjoy your system, until you have your own reasons not to
) just enjoy your system, until you have your own reasons not to
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