Hey, I've been enthralled with horns since I heard a pair as a kid back in the 80s.
I'd really like to build a pair and I'm considering going with a pair of the Fostex FE166En and using the fostex suggested plans. I've built some subwoofer enclosures in the past, but I've never attempted anything on this scale.
I've been told that the Fostex plans aren't very good and that the Frugel-Horn 3 is better. I've also been told that the Lotus design would be better. I was also told that the 6.5 inch full driver may sound like a good idea but in reality I'd be better off with a smaller driver.
The more I read, the more overwhelmed I become. That's why I say I think I want to build a set of horns.
The room these will live in is 11' w x 19' deep. The wall that the speakers will be close to only has one corner on the right, the left side has an entrance opening...so corner horns are out.
I'm still a beginner and I'm trying to learn as I go here.
Any thoughts, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated.
I'd really like to build a pair and I'm considering going with a pair of the Fostex FE166En and using the fostex suggested plans. I've built some subwoofer enclosures in the past, but I've never attempted anything on this scale.
I've been told that the Fostex plans aren't very good and that the Frugel-Horn 3 is better. I've also been told that the Lotus design would be better. I was also told that the 6.5 inch full driver may sound like a good idea but in reality I'd be better off with a smaller driver.
The more I read, the more overwhelmed I become. That's why I say I think I want to build a set of horns.
The room these will live in is 11' w x 19' deep. The wall that the speakers will be close to only has one corner on the right, the left side has an entrance opening...so corner horns are out.
I'm still a beginner and I'm trying to learn as I go here.
Any thoughts, comments, or suggestions are greatly appreciated.
There's a time-honored tradition of starting off with a simple ported box. It won't be your last speaker, but it gets you further down the road. And given your choice of driver, maybe check out these two articles:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/diyaudio-com-articles/158899-arpeggio-loudspeaker.html
S.E.Xy Speakers | Bottlehead
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/diyaudio-com-articles/158899-arpeggio-loudspeaker.html
S.E.Xy Speakers | Bottlehead
I'm hungry for a burger...maybe I should eat a ham sandwich first though.
I know you're trying to be helpful, and I do appreciate the links and information, however I really do want to build some horns.
I know you're trying to be helpful, and I do appreciate the links and information, however I really do want to build some horns.
Been there done that. I've built a pair of A25 replicas, a small sound bar format L/R/C setup, and countless subwoofer enclosures (ported, sealed, bandpass, etc).
Agreed, but it's also not my first, but it will by my first horn.
The Fostex recommended horns are not among the best.
This driver may work in the Frugel-Horn XL with suitable damping changes -- the guy that installed the FE168eS (which requires similar loading) is happy with them.
Austin A166, Haruna, and Victor are well proven for FE166.
Smaller drivers are better in some ways, larger in other ways.
What kind of amplifier do you have -- it should be noted that these drivers tend to work better with amplifiers that have higher output impedance.
dave
With designs like FH3 or FH-XL there are other drivers out there that can give a "horny" experience.
For Fe166EN Victor would work?
But that's a big one and does it need corners?
IMHO it is better to determine listening goals first, then choose a suitable design (taking into consideration room etc), and then going for the drivers.
For Fe166EN Victor would work?
But that's a big one and does it need corners?
IMHO it is better to determine listening goals first, then choose a suitable design (taking into consideration room etc), and then going for the drivers.
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Are you up for front horns too or just BLH's?
Here is a tractrix horn. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/261427-presenting-trynergy-full-range-tractrix-synergy.html
Here is a tractrix horn. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/261427-presenting-trynergy-full-range-tractrix-synergy.html
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Victor was designed specifically for FE166. They certainly needed no corners when i had them in my room.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/191159-woden-design-victor-fe166en.html
dave
For me, a time honoured tradition is to match the scale of the speaker system to the room- the dimensions given equal 209ft^2 - in my personal estimation too small for any of the large double mouth designs such as the Victor in Dave's photos to work at their best.
I'd never dissuade anyone planning to build a horn design, but if you don't already have the drivers, I'd be inclined to recommend something like the FH3 - with FE126En if you really like the Fostex tonality, or have limited amp power and need the sensitivity. If neither of those are significant factors in your calculus, the Alpair 7.3 ( with which I'm quite familiar, and have heard in this design) , or the new A7P (still waiting to get our first pair installed) would be quite worthy of consideration.
Then there's the larger FHXL- intended for drivers in the next size range. I have them with both A10.3and A10P, and lean slightly towards the latter. I believe Dave has indicated somewhere that at least one model of Fostex in this size range has been tried in the 'XL, but I could be all wet on that one.
No, the Victors, or even the smaller Valiants/ Maeshowe certainly don't need corners - indeed, knowing Dave's room as well as my own, I dare say he'd be snookered with any speaker that did.
I'd never dissuade anyone planning to build a horn design, but if you don't already have the drivers, I'd be inclined to recommend something like the FH3 - with FE126En if you really like the Fostex tonality, or have limited amp power and need the sensitivity. If neither of those are significant factors in your calculus, the Alpair 7.3 ( with which I'm quite familiar, and have heard in this design) , or the new A7P (still waiting to get our first pair installed) would be quite worthy of consideration.
Then there's the larger FHXL- intended for drivers in the next size range. I have them with both A10.3and A10P, and lean slightly towards the latter. I believe Dave has indicated somewhere that at least one model of Fostex in this size range has been tried in the 'XL, but I could be all wet on that one.
No, the Victors, or even the smaller Valiants/ Maeshowe certainly don't need corners - indeed, knowing Dave's room as well as my own, I dare say he'd be snookered with any speaker that did.
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I have 3 receivers available to use.
First is a Kenwood 107VR
Specs: Kenwood 107VR Specs - CNET
Next is an Onkyo TX-SR502
Receivers | A/V Receiver | Stereo Receiver | AVR | TX-SR502 | Onkyo USA
Last is a Hitachi SR-503
Hitachi SR-503 Manual - AM/FM Stereo Receiver - HiFi Engine
And while none of of these are perfect, they are all I have at the time. I would like to upgrade to something nicer in the future though.
As far as the drivers go, I do like the Fostex lineup and it's what I've heard in the past. But I'm not married to them. As horrible as this will sound (no pun intended) I like the look of the TB drivers, though I have no clue how they will sound...but they are aesthetically pleasing.
I'm trying to recreate the wow factor that I experienced as a kid the first time I heard the Fostex horns play Miles Davis and Huey Lewis.
I do have a subwoofer sitting here, that could be used if necessary.
My only real design request is that they are under 48" tall and have a smaller footprint than my CV VS-120s.
First is a Kenwood 107VR
Specs: Kenwood 107VR Specs - CNET
Next is an Onkyo TX-SR502
Receivers | A/V Receiver | Stereo Receiver | AVR | TX-SR502 | Onkyo USA
Last is a Hitachi SR-503
Hitachi SR-503 Manual - AM/FM Stereo Receiver - HiFi Engine
And while none of of these are perfect, they are all I have at the time. I would like to upgrade to something nicer in the future though.
As far as the drivers go, I do like the Fostex lineup and it's what I've heard in the past. But I'm not married to them. As horrible as this will sound (no pun intended) I like the look of the TB drivers, though I have no clue how they will sound...but they are aesthetically pleasing.
I'm trying to recreate the wow factor that I experienced as a kid the first time I heard the Fostex horns play Miles Davis and Huey Lewis.
I do have a subwoofer sitting here, that could be used if necessary.
My only real design request is that they are under 48" tall and have a smaller footprint than my CV VS-120s.
None of those is going to be a good match with the Fostex FE series. They would be happier coupled to one of the FFxx5wk.
Chris' suggestion of FH3 with Alpair 7.3 (or maybe FF125wk) would be a good one. FHXL with A10.x or FF165wk would be another canidate.
dave
Dave, thanks for the reply. I'm still trying to learn so would you mind explaining how you came to that conclusion? What would be better suited to drive the FE series?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/263180-i-think-i-want-build-set-horns.html
Same here except it was in 1952 experiencing HONDO in 3D, Altec three channel cinema sound at Atlanta's Fabulous Fox Theater. The 'hook' was sunk deep!
OK, room loading poses some fairly serious channel balancing problems [by my standards].
OK, where is the listening position [LP]? It should be at an odd harmonic of the room’s length from the sound wall, i.e. 1st [up against back wall], 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc..
Tough to beat for an intro into pipe horns.
If you later choose to switch to a high output impedance amp > a couple of ohms, then you’ll either have to accept a somewhat under-damped [‘loose’/’flabby’] bass that may require adding some internal damping to quell or make new horns using < 0.4 Qts’ drivers or………. start with one and use up to a matching impedance worth of series resistance [Rs = driver nominal impedance, i.e. 8 ohms, etc.] to allow any type of amp to be used.
Note this applies to ALL speaker alignments, not just horns, a point often misunderstood/ignored, then wonder why it sounds too bass shy, heavy and/or too little to banshee wailing mids-treble.
Not familiar with any of the more recent drivers available, but guessing this is what Dave’s recommendations is primarily based on.
OK, BIB is out.
OK, what’s the CV’s footprint? I failed mind reading 101.
GM
Greets!
Same here except it was in 1952 experiencing HONDO in 3D, Altec three channel cinema sound at Atlanta's Fabulous Fox Theater. The 'hook' was sunk deep!
OK, room loading poses some fairly serious channel balancing problems [by my standards].
OK, where is the listening position [LP]? It should be at an odd harmonic of the room’s length from the sound wall, i.e. 1st [up against back wall], 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc..
+1
Tough to beat for an intro into pipe horns.Is this an Olson concept?
These are all vanishingly low output impedance, so the driver’s Qts + any added series resistance [Rs + Qts = Qts’] will completely dominate cab alignment design, ergo ideally will have a ~0.4 – 0.707 Qts’.
If you later choose to switch to a high output impedance amp > a couple of ohms, then you’ll either have to accept a somewhat under-damped [‘loose’/’flabby’] bass that may require adding some internal damping to quell or make new horns using < 0.4 Qts’ drivers or………. start with one and use up to a matching impedance worth of series resistance [Rs = driver nominal impedance, i.e. 8 ohms, etc.] to allow any type of amp to be used.
Note this applies to ALL speaker alignments, not just horns, a point often misunderstood/ignored, then wonder why it sounds too bass shy, heavy and/or too little to banshee wailing mids-treble.
Not familiar with any of the more recent drivers available, but guessing this is what Dave’s recommendations is primarily based on.
OK, BIB is out.
OK, what’s the CV’s footprint? I failed mind reading 101.
GM
So...the Kenwood and Onkyo support 8-16 ohm. The Hitachi supports 4-8 ohm. But I guess I'm not fully understanding "output impedance". Are there any inexpensive diy or other receivers/amps that would match better with out breaking the bank?
I understand that. I had a hell of a time finding anything on the shelf that would drive my CV VS-120s and produce decent bass. The Hitachi is currently driving them and they sound decent, though not great.
Bigger is almost always better, unless you have to appease the wife's sense of design.
OK, what’s the CV’s footprint? I failed mind reading 101.
My telepathic keyboard skills were not working when I typed that. The CVs stand 35" tall x 15" deep and 17" wide. I'm fine with height up to about 48" and depth up to 15" but the width needs to be 10" or less.I greatly appreciate everyone's time and all the awesome information!
Tom
Can you give me some examples of high output impedance amplifiers, or better yet, explain how I can tell if an amplifier has high output impedance.
Tom
The output impedance is often specified by the damping factor (a quite confusing term).
A high output impedance amplifier has a low damping factor.
most SE tube amplifiers, some PP tubeamps, some Firstwatt amps are common examples
dave
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