in front door panels of 2007 jetta
powered by kenwood double din
woofer location is directly next to hip/thigh. so left woofer is 18" lower and 6" to the left creating almost 90 degrees off axis. passenger door much more on axis to driver but the direct path will be blocked by a passengers leg.
major problem is soundstage is placed too low.... sound stage is at the hip for this set up... so add hi vi RT1C into 4" midrange location on door about arm rest height greatly lifting soundstage.
the question
which crossover to use
4th order on tweeter and also 4th order on chn-70 or can i get by with no crossover on the chn-70 . also the xover freq is in question because I want to utilize mark audios driver as much as possible.
ideally I would like to use an alpair 10-p without a tweeter or crossover but the sound stage will be retarded from my hip as well as off axis listening would be a bummer
i dont want to use car audio because i have done that for a long time and want to switch it up
another important aspect in design is that i have a 12" image dynamics id max subwoofer in the trunk
1st post
powered by kenwood double din
woofer location is directly next to hip/thigh. so left woofer is 18" lower and 6" to the left creating almost 90 degrees off axis. passenger door much more on axis to driver but the direct path will be blocked by a passengers leg.
major problem is soundstage is placed too low.... sound stage is at the hip for this set up... so add hi vi RT1C into 4" midrange location on door about arm rest height greatly lifting soundstage.
the question
which crossover to use
4th order on tweeter and also 4th order on chn-70 or can i get by with no crossover on the chn-70 . also the xover freq is in question because I want to utilize mark audios driver as much as possible.
ideally I would like to use an alpair 10-p without a tweeter or crossover but the sound stage will be retarded from my hip as well as off axis listening would be a bummer
i dont want to use car audio because i have done that for a long time and want to switch it up
another important aspect in design is that i have a 12" image dynamics id max subwoofer in the trunk
1st post
mmmm, I have tried my Alpair 7's in the car and didn't like them. Yes the sound was more detailed but the car environment is full of strange things and they didn't shine there.
Dull, soft sound. It lack too early in the highs and was mediocre in the lows.
I have to say that the Alpairs 7 at home are fantastic!!
Maybe was my setup, maybe the car audio is too complicated for me. Things work different than home audio.
Dull, soft sound. It lack too early in the highs and was mediocre in the lows.
I have to say that the Alpairs 7 at home are fantastic!!
Maybe was my setup, maybe the car audio is too complicated for me. Things work different than home audio.
While not speaking officially for Mark, I'd be inclined to avoid using any of his Alpair or CH series drivers - metal or paper in auto installations - in fact I think he specifically cautions to avoid extended exposure of the papers to direct UV
Car drivers are engineered for the rugged duty and environment - many home drivers would not survive long therein.
Car drivers are engineered for the rugged duty and environment - many home drivers would not survive long therein.
I am going with 1 full range driver in each door. 6.5" front 4" back
if chn-70 came in 6.5 i would have no problem using chn but mark drives a hard bargain and I am tempted to get a 110$ 6.5" over a 27$ 4" because I believe a 6.5" will have more kick than the 4" even though the 6.5 alpair in my car is like a delicate asian unbloomed wildflower inside of a beehive
if my alpair babys live to be 1 i will be happy
if chn-70 came in 6.5 i would have no problem using chn but mark drives a hard bargain and I am tempted to get a 110$ 6.5" over a 27$ 4" because I believe a 6.5" will have more kick than the 4" even though the 6.5 alpair in my car is like a delicate asian unbloomed wildflower inside of a beehive
if my alpair babys live to be 1 i will be happy
John:
Keep in mind that the nominal dimensions by which distributors such as Madisound classify the MA drivers relates to frame size, and that the actual cone of any of the "70" or "7" series is approx 7cm / 70mm = just under 3". The only driver that comes close to an actual 6.5" cone would be the A12P or PW. Either of those would be a rather tight in the door of any car I've ever owned. Take a close look at the CAD drawings on his website for dimensions
Gaston:
I'm surprised that you found the A7s dull / soft in any environment - the upper mids through top end are one of the areas where I find the excel.
I'm a huge fan of Mark's drivers (currently have 2 systems with a total of 11 of various models of them), - call me an old man, but to repeat what I said before, I'd personally never use any of Mark's drivers - metal or paper- in an auto or marine installation.
The metal cones are fragile enough that I'd worry a single slam of doors or trunk lid could deform them, and he specifically cautions to avoid long term direct exposure of paper cones to UV - even if the driver could fit in standard factory locations, that could be kinda hard to avoid.
Then there's the SPL's at which they'd likely be operated - depending on the vehicle, you can easily have a noise floor of over 60dB A at highway speed, and it's way too easy for the volume level to creep beyond safe operating limits for these drivers.
Keep in mind that the nominal dimensions by which distributors such as Madisound classify the MA drivers relates to frame size, and that the actual cone of any of the "70" or "7" series is approx 7cm / 70mm = just under 3". The only driver that comes close to an actual 6.5" cone would be the A12P or PW. Either of those would be a rather tight in the door of any car I've ever owned. Take a close look at the CAD drawings on his website for dimensions
Gaston:
I'm surprised that you found the A7s dull / soft in any environment - the upper mids through top end are one of the areas where I find the excel.
I'm a huge fan of Mark's drivers (currently have 2 systems with a total of 11 of various models of them), - call me an old man, but to repeat what I said before, I'd personally never use any of Mark's drivers - metal or paper- in an auto or marine installation.
The metal cones are fragile enough that I'd worry a single slam of doors or trunk lid could deform them, and he specifically cautions to avoid long term direct exposure of paper cones to UV - even if the driver could fit in standard factory locations, that could be kinda hard to avoid.
Then there's the SPL's at which they'd likely be operated - depending on the vehicle, you can easily have a noise floor of over 60dB A at highway speed, and it's way too easy for the volume level to creep beyond safe operating limits for these drivers.
Hi Guys,
I appreciate Chris's caution. There are some challenges when applying better grade drivers into an automotive audio application. Taking good time to think about your auto-audio needs is worth the effort. I'm receiving more requests than ever for advice on applying Full-Rangers into automotive applications. Technically, Markaudio drivers and similar makes can be applied to automotive.
If you're into racking up the volume and constantly breaking ear-drums, then Full-Rangers won't likely suit (unless relieved from LF loads below 500Hz). If however, you're happy to play a variety of music in the normal listening ranges, there's some good reasons to think about using Full-Rangers. You can take advantage of Markaudio's wide bandwidth, equalising (if available) to suit and wide dispersion will likely help you to better tune the systems, side/front/rear balance.
Here's a few tips:
A - The Markaudio metal cone drivers, like the CHR units are best suited. Their cones and power-trains use synthetic materials resistant to environmental conditions (humidity). Paper coned drivers can be used provided they are installed in lower door panels away from direct sun-light.
B - Try to follow the same "good practice" design/installation rules (where possible) for volume sizing (door volumes) to match the driver. Make sure the installation is neat, the driver is correctly seated (flat mounting surface) into the panel and where possible, the grille is retained or a new one fitted. Dampen down any loose sections on the door card, making sure its fully refitted. Adding additional rubber damping material inside the door panels and frame is worth considering.
C - Amplification. Chances are the amp will be more powerful than the driver's rating. This is common even for the OEM drivers fitted by the auto-maker (hence the large after-market business). Be prepared to exercise caution when turning up the volume. Later versions of Markaudio units contain an Arrestor, an over-load protection component which saves a driver from accidental large volume inputs. If you're in need of increased bass, partner your Markaudio or similar Full-Ranger with a descent woof (sub) and aim to cross around 150Hz to 400Hz depending on your application.
Here's an example of Markaudio drivers in automotive project, nicely fitted:
myamanari's blog: DIY car audio using home audio components
Thanks,
Mark.
I appreciate Chris's caution. There are some challenges when applying better grade drivers into an automotive audio application. Taking good time to think about your auto-audio needs is worth the effort. I'm receiving more requests than ever for advice on applying Full-Rangers into automotive applications. Technically, Markaudio drivers and similar makes can be applied to automotive.
If you're into racking up the volume and constantly breaking ear-drums, then Full-Rangers won't likely suit (unless relieved from LF loads below 500Hz). If however, you're happy to play a variety of music in the normal listening ranges, there's some good reasons to think about using Full-Rangers. You can take advantage of Markaudio's wide bandwidth, equalising (if available) to suit and wide dispersion will likely help you to better tune the systems, side/front/rear balance.
Here's a few tips:
A - The Markaudio metal cone drivers, like the CHR units are best suited. Their cones and power-trains use synthetic materials resistant to environmental conditions (humidity). Paper coned drivers can be used provided they are installed in lower door panels away from direct sun-light.
B - Try to follow the same "good practice" design/installation rules (where possible) for volume sizing (door volumes) to match the driver. Make sure the installation is neat, the driver is correctly seated (flat mounting surface) into the panel and where possible, the grille is retained or a new one fitted. Dampen down any loose sections on the door card, making sure its fully refitted. Adding additional rubber damping material inside the door panels and frame is worth considering.
C - Amplification. Chances are the amp will be more powerful than the driver's rating. This is common even for the OEM drivers fitted by the auto-maker (hence the large after-market business). Be prepared to exercise caution when turning up the volume. Later versions of Markaudio units contain an Arrestor, an over-load protection component which saves a driver from accidental large volume inputs. If you're in need of increased bass, partner your Markaudio or similar Full-Ranger with a descent woof (sub) and aim to cross around 150Hz to 400Hz depending on your application.
Here's an example of Markaudio drivers in automotive project, nicely fitted:
myamanari's blog: DIY car audio using home audio components
Thanks,
Mark.
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Yes, this was my experience also.
Ohhh
now I see why my Alpairs didn't shine in my car.I ran into the same problems as this guy, and my car didn't have the same plastic panel covering all the holes on the door panel. Mine was rubbish.
This is a good example, mine wasn't.
I think that installing the MA in the rear panel (below the rear-view window) would solve many of these problems and with the sound being reflected by the rear-view window won't loose as much high freq range as mine did at knee height in the front doors.
@Chris
I found the MA to be very good tonal balanced speakers.
Other Car Audio I have (Blaupunkt) are very sharp on the highs. At home they are unlistenable if you don't toe them out at high angles. Maybe that explains things a little bit.
Please note that I'm new to car audio and don't have an DSP/EQ.
As Mark pointed out, at home his drivers are perfect as they are (just put them in a good box and they sound fantastic), but in a car you have to tweak them a little bit and know what you are doing... car's faults not MA speakers
Hi Chris,
Your caution is wise. The context is about the quality of sound farther than quantity (sound volume). Full-Rangers can operate successfully in automotive environments if sufficient care is taken and operational limits observed. But a successful installation will require neatness and care.
Thanks
Mark.
Last edited:
Received the markaudio 10 golds and also a smsl A-50 T amp
for 100 hrs of break in, the speakers are free aired on a 20x20" baffle . free air.
Im trying to decide what box to make, my tools are a circular saw jigsaw and drill.
why the hell is red oak wood so expensive... maybe it will make my speakers sound nice because it is expensive
for 100 hrs of break in, the speakers are free aired on a 20x20" baffle . free air.
Im trying to decide what box to make, my tools are a circular saw jigsaw and drill.
why the hell is red oak wood so expensive... maybe it will make my speakers sound nice because it is expensive
Received the markaudio 10 golds and also a smsl A-50 T amp
for 100 hrs of break in, the speakers are free aired on a 20x20" baffle . free air.
Im trying to decide what box to make, my tools are a circular saw jigsaw and drill.
why the hell is red oak wood so expensive... maybe it will make my speakers sound nice because it is expensive
Are you saying you're planning on using solid red oak for the entire enclosures? Cost aside, unless you're very confident with your skills working with solids, I'd strongly recommend a high quality plywood ( baltic birch, Apple Ply, etc) you can always post veneer them, and the total cost and certainly fabrication time could well be less than using all solids.
To fully extract the bass extension of which these drivers are capable, I'd think a floorstander is the only way to go - 3 enclosure designs to consider would be Pensil, FHXL and for a compact footprint, DaveD's Mar-Ken 10T. I've built / heard all of the above, and if you can accommodate the floorspace, I think the FHXL takes the ribbon.. Even though both the FH3 and FHXL have curved side panels, I've fabricated prototypes of each using hand cut MDF template, jig saw, belt sander, and the one tool you've not listed - router with flush trim bit ( full size router, not a trimmer)
If that feels a bit too adventuresome, the Pensil is a fairly simple build - except for the driver cutout, it's all straight cuts.
Note that the Alpair drivers really should be recessed for flush mounting, and that's more easily accomplished with a router and circle cutting jig - either hand made, or something like the Jasper jig (or CNC
) than with just the tools you have listed. -for now here is what i created. the only tool was a drill... i used a jigsaw to cut the speaker opening but im just not going to count that. i was angry at lowes because drill pieces for circles, they carry 2"-4.5" in 0.5" increments and 6,6.5 " but the bastards dont carry 5" or 5.5" hole cut out drill pieces for wood. the alpair is 140mm which is about 5.5"
what i found interesting which i should double check is that when i drew my cutout circle i drew it to be a 136mm diameter after i measured the speaker myself with a 50$, less than 6month old set of calipers. this is not very close to the manufactured specs. I will have to double check my diameter but i am fairly certain it was smaller than manufacture parameters and the mounting holes are so close to the cut out im surprised ive never heard any1 else with this inquiry
Here is my temporary set up , i call it a kinetic box
what i found interesting which i should double check is that when i drew my cutout circle i drew it to be a 136mm diameter after i measured the speaker myself with a 50$, less than 6month old set of calipers. this is not very close to the manufactured specs. I will have to double check my diameter but i am fairly certain it was smaller than manufacture parameters and the mounting holes are so close to the cut out im surprised ive never heard any1 else with this inquiry
Here is my temporary set up , i call it a kinetic box
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An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
i dont know how to add pics
http://i270.photobucket.com/albums/jj105/Blinkdogo2/IMG_3243-1.jpg
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With those nice pair of drivers I would be tempted to build a Pensil and try them at home
They say it's one of the best Markaudio drivers, after the Alpair 7. A little less DDR but plenty more of bass
Have you already tried them in you car?
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