Hi dear friends!
I'm Pietro and I'm from Italy!
First I'd like to inform you that I'm a newbie in this field, so I hope you have a little patience with me
However, I believe I'm not requiring too much!!!
I've asked for a support in several italian forums, but there they don't like newbies unfortunately!!! So I hope so much that here someone can give some help.
I'm having a bad time because of a horrible disease, so I'm trying to keep myself active, looking for a little happiness by doing what I've always liked but I've never done for lack of time.
Now I have a lot of time and I'd like to make a project but I need you to make it.
I've several vintage low-potency amplifiers.Imagine that the more powerful amplifier has only 15 watt RMS at 4 ohm!!! However it's a beautiful Hi-Fi amplifier made by Grundig, then I own a Philips, a Telefunken and many more.Anyway my fovourite amplifier is the small but well sounding Pioneer SA-500A (only 12 watt per channel !!!)
So I'd like to make a pair of speakers boxes with a high efficiency fullrange.
It's very important that they have an impedance of 4 Ohm and, above of all, that they have a maximum size of 40 liters, because my room isn't very large.
Then. for me it doesn't matter if they're bass reflex, infinitive baffle etc...etc...
If a tweeter is necessary in your opnion, I'll add it: you've carte blanche overall!!!...you'll decide everything!!!
I've seen these fullranges and I'd like to know which one you consider the best choise for my project;
Here's the list (you can see the specifications for each model at the links down the name of each speaker)
-Ciare CH 201
http://www.ciare.com/pdf/Catalogo/CH201.pdf
-Sica LP208.38/1100 Sica Breitbandlautsprecher LP208.38/1100 4 Ohm
-Sica LP 208.38/426T
Sica Breitbandlautsprecher LP208.38/426T
-Beyma 10ag / N (in this case it's a 8 ohm speaker, but it has 97 db of efficiency so it's in this list!)
Beyma Breitbandlautsprecher 10 AG/N
-Ciare PH 320 (12 inch speaker, what a monster!!!)
Ciare Breitbandlautsprecher PH 320
-Sica LP 266.38/426
Sica Breitbandlautsprecher LP266.38/426 ER 4 Ohm
If you want to recommend another model that it isn't present in this list of possible options...you'll be welcome!!!
I'd like to get just a speaker with a good bass range and that sounds loud with these small low-potency amplifiers.
So...guys, could I have your precious help with this hard choise?...you're my only hope at this time
Thank you so much for your patience, for your tollerance and above of all thank you for understanding my complicated situation at the present moment
Best regards and a big Ciao to everyone!
P.S.: please forgive me, my dear friends, for my horrible english, but I promise you I'll study in order to improve my english!!!
I'm Pietro and I'm from Italy!
First I'd like to inform you that I'm a newbie in this field, so I hope you have a little patience with me
However, I believe I'm not requiring too much!!!
I've asked for a support in several italian forums, but there they don't like newbies unfortunately!!!
So I hope so much that here someone can give some help.I'm having a bad time because of a horrible disease, so I'm trying to keep myself active, looking for a little happiness by doing what I've always liked but I've never done for lack of time.
Now I have a lot of time and I'd like to make a project but I need you to make it.
I've several vintage low-potency amplifiers.Imagine that the more powerful amplifier has only 15 watt RMS at 4 ohm!!! However it's a beautiful Hi-Fi amplifier made by Grundig, then I own a Philips, a Telefunken and many more.Anyway my fovourite amplifier is the small but well sounding Pioneer SA-500A (only 12 watt per channel !!!)
So I'd like to make a pair of speakers boxes with a high efficiency fullrange.
It's very important that they have an impedance of 4 Ohm and, above of all, that they have a maximum size of 40 liters, because my room isn't very large.
Then. for me it doesn't matter if they're bass reflex, infinitive baffle etc...etc...
If a tweeter is necessary in your opnion, I'll add it: you've carte blanche overall!!!...you'll decide everything!!!
I've seen these fullranges and I'd like to know which one you consider the best choise for my project;
Here's the list (you can see the specifications for each model at the links down the name of each speaker)
-Ciare CH 201
http://www.ciare.com/pdf/Catalogo/CH201.pdf
-Sica LP208.38/1100 Sica Breitbandlautsprecher LP208.38/1100 4 Ohm
-Sica LP 208.38/426T
Sica Breitbandlautsprecher LP208.38/426T
-Beyma 10ag / N (in this case it's a 8 ohm speaker, but it has 97 db of efficiency so it's in this list!)
Beyma Breitbandlautsprecher 10 AG/N
-Ciare PH 320 (12 inch speaker, what a monster!!!)
Ciare Breitbandlautsprecher PH 320
-Sica LP 266.38/426
Sica Breitbandlautsprecher LP266.38/426 ER 4 Ohm
If you want to recommend another model that it isn't present in this list of possible options...you'll be welcome!!!
I'd like to get just a speaker with a good bass range and that sounds loud with these small low-potency amplifiers.
So...guys, could I have your precious help with this hard choise?...you're my only hope at this time
Thank you so much for your patience, for your tollerance and above of all thank you for understanding my complicated situation at the present moment
Best regards and a big Ciao to everyone!
P.S.: please forgive me, my dear friends, for my horrible english, but I promise you I'll study in order to improve my english!!!
Greets!
You have come to right place, but unfortunately, what you want is not possible. You can only have two out of these three: efficiency [SPL], bass or small size, so you will have to decide which two you want most: TA Speaker Topics: Loudspeaker Design Tradeoffs
Many folks here choose efficiency and small size and use a separate woofer to handle the mid-bass on down.
GM
You have come to right place, but unfortunately, what you want is not possible. You can only have two out of these three: efficiency [SPL], bass or small size, so you will have to decide which two you want most: TA Speaker Topics: Loudspeaker Design Tradeoffs
Many folks here choose efficiency and small size and use a separate woofer to handle the mid-bass on down.
GM
High efficiency full range
Hello Peter,
Its good that you have treasured your old amplifiers. 15Wrms is often good enough for personal listening.
I'd recommend an 8" Beyma full range in a sealed enclosure. Put two in parallel to get the most out of your amplifier. This will give you good sound quickly without having to do detailed bass-refles enclosure design and then having to make a high pass filter etc.
So I'd say, go ahead and make a start.
I hope that the music makes you feel better and that you get well soon.
Hello Peter,
Its good that you have treasured your old amplifiers. 15Wrms is often good enough for personal listening.
I'd recommend an 8" Beyma full range in a sealed enclosure. Put two in parallel to get the most out of your amplifier. This will give you good sound quickly without having to do detailed bass-refles enclosure design and then having to make a high pass filter etc.
So I'd say, go ahead and make a start.
I hope that the music makes you feel better and that you get well soon.
The Beyma 8 AG/N runs quickly out of steam at the high frequencies. I noticed that when building the popular "The Viech" for it. One of the Sicas (can't remember which one) is seen as a replacement with better treble in that respect.
+1 on the separate sub woofer and use a high sensitivity full range driver on top (preferably high passed filtered). If you want a really nice sounding full range driver from 200Hz on up that is 98dB sensitive, check out the 4 ohm version of the PRV 5MR450-NDY driver. Full details of how this driver performs as a sensitive top in a FAST (2 way with woofer XO at relatively high 200Hz to 300Hz) can be found in this thread http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/259293-prv-5mr450-ndy-fast-applications.html
If you have room go with an open baffle. If not go with the Nautaloss compact infinite baffle. Use line level passive or active crossover and inexpensive class D TPA3116D2 amps. Best way is to use 2x4 miniDSP and bi-amp. If you want to use your nice antique amps put them for driving the full range and the low cost class D amp for driving the woofer. For woofers there are many choices but in a small room, a small sealed enclosure is probably sufficient. If you want deeper extension then look in the sub forum for small 6th order bandpass slot loaded designs.
If you have room go with an open baffle. If not go with the Nautaloss compact infinite baffle. Use line level passive or active crossover and inexpensive class D TPA3116D2 amps. Best way is to use 2x4 miniDSP and bi-amp. If you want to use your nice antique amps put them for driving the full range and the low cost class D amp for driving the woofer. For woofers there are many choices but in a small room, a small sealed enclosure is probably sufficient. If you want deeper extension then look in the sub forum for small 6th order bandpass slot loaded designs.
I haven't heard any of those drivers, but the first one (Chiare CH 201) looks pretty decent at first glance. It will work in a modest sized reflex box, and there appears to be a factory recommended design. It would probably be best with a small horn supertweeter crossed in high for the top octave. An L-pad and 1uF cap would most likely be sufficient for a crossover. Also, the cellulose cone gives you some room for playing with various tweaks and dammar etc, which is part of the fun.
You would be sacrificing bass extension for efficiency. The expected extension of the Ch201 will be about 75hz, which is reasonable but not ideal.
I think you may be worrying a bit too much about efficiency. I am using about the same amount of watts with a pair of Markaudio 10.3m, and it is plenty efficient for moderate listening levels.
You would be sacrificing bass extension for efficiency. The expected extension of the Ch201 will be about 75hz, which is reasonable but not ideal.
I think you may be worrying a bit too much about efficiency. I am using about the same amount of watts with a pair of Markaudio 10.3m, and it is plenty efficient for moderate listening levels.
If you overlook the venue/ application for such a proposed system (i.e. size /shape/ acoustic damping of room, and listening levels/types of program material), you'll be chasing your tail.
Amps with low output - in the 12-15W range needn't necessarily be considered "low potency" - many of us in the full-range camp are quite happy with that much or even less power.
As Greg B notes, something like the Alpair 10.3 (metal) or 10P (paper) can deliver a lot of musical satisfaction with a wide range of music program on 15watts or less, and some of the enclosures are very simple builds. I've heard both models in a range of enclosure types from moderate "bookshelf" sized ported boxes to floorstanding MLTLs, to BLH - in the larger designs they can certainly reach well below 50Hz in room without aid.
Amps with low output - in the 12-15W range needn't necessarily be considered "low potency" - many of us in the full-range camp are quite happy with that much or even less power.
As Greg B notes, something like the Alpair 10.3 (metal) or 10P (paper) can deliver a lot of musical satisfaction with a wide range of music program on 15watts or less, and some of the enclosures are very simple builds. I've heard both models in a range of enclosure types from moderate "bookshelf" sized ported boxes to floorstanding MLTLs, to BLH - in the larger designs they can certainly reach well below 50Hz in room without aid.
Hi dear friends!
I'm so happy with your message!
Unfortunately today has been a terrible day for me, for this reason I've been unable to read all these wonderful messages, unfortunately.So I aplogize for that, but tomorrow I'll do it with immense enthusiasm.
You can't immagine how happy I'm going to sleep now!!!
So I wanna thank to eveyone for your kindness, for your precious support and above of all, for your patience and for your understanding.
I love America...I hope to visit USA one day!It's my dream!
Well..."see you" tomorrow (here now it's deep night!!!)
Ciao!
Pietro
I'm so happy with your message!
Unfortunately today has been a terrible day for me, for this reason I've been unable to read all these wonderful messages, unfortunately.So I aplogize for that, but tomorrow I'll do it with immense enthusiasm.
You can't immagine how happy I'm going to sleep now!!!
So I wanna thank to eveyone for your kindness, for your precious support and above of all, for your patience and for your understanding.
I love America...I hope to visit USA one day!It's my dream!
Well..."see you" tomorrow (here now it's deep night!!!)
Ciao!
Pietro
Try a 8" driver in a Voigt pipe enclosure. Simple to build, inexpensive, good results. Not boxy sounding and surprising bass. Use both baffle step compensation and Zobel circuits. Won't need much else for filtering on a full-range driver.
What type of music do you listen to? This is important.
Here's mine as an example. Very little wood needed, easy cuts. It uses a $110(US$) 6" driver. Before the baffle step circuit it was OK. After adding it, it was much better.
Speakers - My Photo Gallery
Biggest issue is calculating the box and throat size, but there is some info out there.
Good Luck!
Vince
What type of music do you listen to? This is important.
Here's mine as an example. Very little wood needed, easy cuts. It uses a $110(US$) 6" driver. Before the baffle step circuit it was OK. After adding it, it was much better.
Speakers - My Photo Gallery
Biggest issue is calculating the box and throat size, but there is some info out there.
Good Luck!
Vince
Hi my dear friends!
I'm so sorry for my long absence from this wonderful forum.
I said, in my first post, that unfortunately I'm in ill-health conditions.For this reason, it may happen, as in this case, I absent myself from you.
Unfortunately it's not a whim and I'm sure you can understand that situation.
I like you a lot and I love this beautiful forum.
This project has an immeasurable for me at this time and I hope so much that I can count on your irreplaceable help and on your precious support, because If I go it alone, I'm not able to get anything.
I wanna thank you for your messages.
I've already affirmed that my idea isn't so complicated, after all (at least I believe so!).
I would to built a 40 liers box with an hight efficiency speaker and if you think that a tweeter ir required, there's no problem for me!
The foundamental and important thing (it's my dream!) is "the vintage look" in other words, I wish so much they had the old "medium-small" bookshelf's shape...look at these example, please:
Celestion-Thread
Here you can see several picture
? Celestion H Hadleigh luidsprekers vintage 1970's verstarker - Speakers - Marktplaats.nl
This is my "small-big" dream!!!
You have asked me what kind of music I generally listen:well...I like rock, pop and vintage new-wave music (Devo, Patty Smith, Talking Heads, B'52, Chrome, Pere Ubu, and many others like these).
I've seen many speakers that they should be the best option (but I've not knowledge in this sector, so you're my mentor and my advicers!!!)
I give you a small list and you'll decide, if you want of course, the best candidate (if there is obviously) for this project:
1) Beyma Breitbandlautsprecher 8AG/N
2)Sica LP208.38/1100 (8D 1,5 CS) 4 Ohm Breitbandlautsprecher und mehr - SpectrumAudio
3)Sica LP 208.38/426T Breitbandlautsprecher und mehr - SpectrumAudio
4)Beyma Breitbandlautsprecher 10 AG/N
5)Sica Breitbandlautsprecher LP266.25/280 ER 4 Ohm
6)Sica Breitbandlautsprecher LP266.38/426 ER 4 Ohm
7)Sica Breitbandlautsprecher LP266.38/426 ER 8 Ohm
Now, my dear friends, I hope I've given you all the basic informations
As I have already said this project is of great importance to me, for this reason I hope to have you next to me!
Thank you for your kindness and for your big patience!
Pietro
I'm so sorry for my long absence from this wonderful forum.
I said, in my first post, that unfortunately I'm in ill-health conditions.For this reason, it may happen, as in this case, I absent myself from you.
Unfortunately it's not a whim and I'm sure you can understand that situation.
I like you a lot and I love this beautiful forum.
This project has an immeasurable for me at this time and I hope so much that I can count on your irreplaceable help and on your precious support, because If I go it alone, I'm not able to get anything.
I wanna thank you for your messages.
I've already affirmed that my idea isn't so complicated, after all (at least I believe so!).
I would to built a 40 liers box with an hight efficiency speaker and if you think that a tweeter ir required, there's no problem for me!
The foundamental and important thing (it's my dream!
) is "the vintage look" in other words, I wish so much they had the old "medium-small" bookshelf's shape...look at these example, please:Celestion-Thread
Here you can see several picture
? Celestion H Hadleigh luidsprekers vintage 1970's verstarker - Speakers - Marktplaats.nl
This is my "small-big" dream!!!
You have asked me what kind of music I generally listen
:well...I like rock, pop and vintage new-wave music (Devo, Patty Smith, Talking Heads, B'52, Chrome, Pere Ubu, and many others like these).I've seen many speakers that they should be the best option (but I've not knowledge in this sector, so you're my mentor and my advicers!!!)
I give you a small list and you'll decide, if you want of course, the best candidate (if there is obviously) for this project:
1) Beyma Breitbandlautsprecher 8AG/N
2)Sica LP208.38/1100 (8D 1,5 CS) 4 Ohm Breitbandlautsprecher und mehr - SpectrumAudio
3)Sica LP 208.38/426T Breitbandlautsprecher und mehr - SpectrumAudio
4)Beyma Breitbandlautsprecher 10 AG/N
5)Sica Breitbandlautsprecher LP266.25/280 ER 4 Ohm
6)Sica Breitbandlautsprecher LP266.38/426 ER 4 Ohm
7)Sica Breitbandlautsprecher LP266.38/426 ER 8 Ohm
Now, my dear friends, I hope I've given you all the basic informations
As I have already said this project is of great importance to me, for this reason I hope to have you next to me!
Thank you for your kindness and for your big patience!
Pietro
Hi there,
One advice I can give, a subjective opinion.
Do not choose 8AG/N. I have it and it's one of the worst sounding driver I have listened. It sounds like a vibrating cardboard plate. And that's what it is actually, it does not have a proper surround but the cone extends until to the frame.
I've been looking Sicas long time with interest but no experience on those.
.
One advice I can give, a subjective opinion.
Do not choose 8AG/N. I have it and it's one of the worst sounding driver I have listened. It sounds like a vibrating cardboard plate. And that's what it is actually, it does not have a proper surround but the cone extends until to the frame.
I've been looking Sicas long time with interest but no experience on those.
.
speaker choice is very subjective, but FWIW I own a Lowther DX3 and a Markaudio Alpair 7.
Both are very different, yet fantastic drivers!!
I drive them with a 3W tube amp, and I don't feel the low efficency of the Markaudio is a problem here. I get decent volume.
Alpair 7 in frugal-horn (difficult build) or in Pencils (easy build) will be my recomendation.
You can even go with 10p or 12p.
As Elias said, many FR speakers sound like crap, especially the PA type. Markaudio on the other hand are an evolution of FR. They are very neutral, detailed and pleasing to listen to.
You can read more about them in the Markaudio forum.
Gaston
Both are very different, yet fantastic drivers!!
I drive them with a 3W tube amp, and I don't feel the low efficency of the Markaudio is a problem here. I get decent volume.
Alpair 7 in frugal-horn (difficult build) or in Pencils (easy build) will be my recomendation.
You can even go with 10p or 12p.
As Elias said, many FR speakers sound like crap, especially the PA type. Markaudio on the other hand are an evolution of FR. They are very neutral, detailed and pleasing to listen to.
You can read more about them in the Markaudio forum.
Gaston
Oh my dear friends!
Where are you???...I'm so alone
Did you forsake me?
Please I need you so much!
Ciao
I think the problem is no one has experience with those drivers. Perhaps one of the European members of this forum has played around with one or two of them. None of them are available in north america.
From the specs I could find the Sica LP 266.38/426 ER 8 Ohm seems the most appropriate for a 40l enclosure, but bass extension will not be great. I couldn't possibly tell you how it sounds. They are all basically PA speakers, and because of this they may sound a little rough.
You might get more help if you ask about a speaker available on both sides of the pond (ie, Fostex, Visaton, Markaudio, etc), or simply ask for a recommendation for a specified application, size and cost.
Sica 8D 1,5 CS is an excellent PA fullrange, very low distortion and high efficiency. But, as every other PA loudspeaker, it needs EQ to sound as a hi-fi loudspeaker. Also, it's resonant frequency is not fs=65Hz as declared, but is much higher at fs=95Hz.
I would recommend Mark Audio instead. New CHN-70 seems to be very good. Inexpensive too, only $27 at Madisound:
Edit: Visaton BG20 has very good bass and is inexpensive.
I would recommend Mark Audio instead. New CHN-70 seems to be very good. Inexpensive too, only $27 at Madisound:
Code:
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[/URL]Edit: Visaton BG20 has very good bass and is inexpensive.
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