Had an opportunity to play my A10P/Dayton 12" combo in a really large room. The room was something like 30'x70'x10', glass and cinder block. Some 30 soft back chairs were the only furniture. The speakers were ~15' apart and the listening area 15-20' back. Yuan Jing TDA3116 on the A10P's and Crown XLS 1500 on the Dayton's. nanoDIGI for the XO (200Hz) and EQ 500Hz and down.
The combo worked beautifully. Easy, detailed and everyone enjoyed the sound. Main demo tracks were Alison Kraus "Forget About it", Fleetwood Mac "Never Going Back Again", Bela Fleck "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" (Got to use those 12's!).
I ran the combo at ~80dB at the listening point. Plenty of headroom left. Got asked to run the A10P's alone. So.... The cabinet is a BR tuned to 60Hz -- my B10-A10. At 80dB, instrumentals were fine. I was getting ~2mm excursion. but the vocals were highly distorted. Sort of a buzzing sound to the voice. This had to be some sort of IM distortion. I think the A10P's have arrestors -- didn't all A10P's come with arrestors? -- but that was not the sound I was hearing.
I would like to note that all of the other speakers I heard --all but one were relatively small 2-way's, the one 3-way was truly awfull! -- seem to have an exaggerated upper bass/lower mid. This must be the sound that DIY'ers are looking for because they all had it. All those speakers sounded a bit boxy. The A10P's sound much more open.
Bob
The combo worked beautifully. Easy, detailed and everyone enjoyed the sound. Main demo tracks were Alison Kraus "Forget About it", Fleetwood Mac "Never Going Back Again", Bela Fleck "Flight of the Cosmic Hippo" (Got to use those 12's!).
I ran the combo at ~80dB at the listening point. Plenty of headroom left. Got asked to run the A10P's alone. So.... The cabinet is a BR tuned to 60Hz -- my B10-A10. At 80dB, instrumentals were fine. I was getting ~2mm excursion. but the vocals were highly distorted. Sort of a buzzing sound to the voice. This had to be some sort of IM distortion. I think the A10P's have arrestors -- didn't all A10P's come with arrestors? -- but that was not the sound I was hearing.
I would like to note that all of the other speakers I heard --all but one were relatively small 2-way's, the one 3-way was truly awfull! -- seem to have an exaggerated upper bass/lower mid. This must be the sound that DIY'ers are looking for because they all had it. All those speakers sounded a bit boxy. The A10P's sound much more open.
Bob
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Could it be electronic distortion (gain overload) from the EQ, mean if you still eq 500Hz and down but now without the 200Hz XO.
Thanks sharing big room experience.
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Hi Guys,
Re Bob's experiment, interesting, but I couldn't recommend running ANY small-medium BR box system in a room the size of 30'X70'X10'. This type/size of box won't cope with such large room air volumes. Full range and most other drive units will complain under these circumstances.
For those who want to go the pursuit rout in large room environments, the Pensil series are worthy of consideration. These systems were purpose designed for large areas without the need for bass enhancement: See: Graham's hifi page
http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxes-markaudio.html
The 10P does well when installed/matched in a suitable large volume box design that purpose is to operate in larger environments. The bass response might be sufficient for many listeners. For those who want enhance "heavy bass", adding a woofer is a likely solution.
Thanks
Mark.
Re Bob's experiment, interesting, but I couldn't recommend running ANY small-medium BR box system in a room the size of 30'X70'X10'. This type/size of box won't cope with such large room air volumes. Full range and most other drive units will complain under these circumstances.
For those who want to go the pursuit rout in large room environments, the Pensil series are worthy of consideration. These systems were purpose designed for large areas without the need for bass enhancement: See: Graham's hifi page
http://www.frugal-phile.com/boxes-markaudio.html
The 10P does well when installed/matched in a suitable large volume box design that purpose is to operate in larger environments. The bass response might be sufficient for many listeners. For those who want enhance "heavy bass", adding a woofer is a likely solution.
Thanks
Mark.
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Right! I am sure that one of my MLTL's would do better, but still too big a room without a sub. I wanted to pass along that I was getting noticeable distortion without excessive excursion. This was a one-time thing, as one of the participants wanted to hear the A10P without the sub.
For the record, from here on out, low XO 2-ways is the only way. Get a listen to some 30Hz and below on a speaker that actually can handle it. Then go back and play the same track on a speaker that cuts off 60-80Hz. You will see what I mean.
Bob
For the record, from here on out, low XO 2-ways is the only way. Get a listen to some 30Hz and below on a speaker that actually can handle it. Then go back and play the same track on a speaker that cuts off 60-80Hz. You will see what I mean.
Bob
Hi Bob (guys),
Yes, you'll get the distortion effect from any small(ish) BR in these circumstances. There's no way for a BR to remain operationally balanced, the port won't cope with the large air room mass, the driver(s) loading becomes un-balanced.
I'm currently part of an OEM trial which uses Kef LS50, Paradigm 20 and similar, all were run last Monday 7th in a large room. All exhibited the same problem Bob describes, the environment made matters worse as their upper bands effectively become compressed, a case of "screaming tweets". Their bass responses un-loaded, becoming flattened. Its quite a weird phenomenon listening to a clipped bass in a large room.
A room 30X70X10 would require a larger system. However, Pensil's cope well in large rooms. They are designed for this purpose. Take a look at Graham's Hi-Fi page, see the pics of his extra large room which utilises first gen Alpair 12's in Pensils, there's no sub-enhancement.
In the specific case of the 10P, it can be used in larger spaces provided its in the correct box. But Bob is wise to point out that in the unusually large room he was using, its so extreme a size as to warrant some additional bass enhancement. Box acreage counts: big room = big box (and bigger drivers). As yet I've not seen any audio system that can beat the laws of physics
Thanks
Mark.
Yes, you'll get the distortion effect from any small(ish) BR in these circumstances. There's no way for a BR to remain operationally balanced, the port won't cope with the large air room mass, the driver(s) loading becomes un-balanced.
I'm currently part of an OEM trial which uses Kef LS50, Paradigm 20 and similar, all were run last Monday 7th in a large room. All exhibited the same problem Bob describes, the environment made matters worse as their upper bands effectively become compressed, a case of "screaming tweets". Their bass responses un-loaded, becoming flattened. Its quite a weird phenomenon listening to a clipped bass in a large room.
A room 30X70X10 would require a larger system. However, Pensil's cope well in large rooms. They are designed for this purpose. Take a look at Graham's Hi-Fi page, see the pics of his extra large room which utilises first gen Alpair 12's in Pensils, there's no sub-enhancement.
In the specific case of the 10P, it can be used in larger spaces provided its in the correct box. But Bob is wise to point out that in the unusually large room he was using, its so extreme a size as to warrant some additional bass enhancement. Box acreage counts: big room = big box (and bigger drivers). As yet I've not seen any audio system that can beat the laws of physics
Thanks
Mark.
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I've been noticing this trend with a lot of low budget commercial offerings as well.
I'm not surprised your rig impressed though! I'm a big fan of quality full range drivers over big woofers/subwoofers. I've played with a10p with bass support and was quite impressed myself.
Anything is possible, but I doubt it. The amp uses the TA2022 chip which is rated at 30w/ch at 1% THD. What I was hearing did not sound like either clipping of high THD. But have no fear, the experiment will not be repeated.
Bob
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